Subtree Rework - Nation Folders

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Subtrees are a good way to help existing nations in their efficiency and vehicle variety, while introducing new and exciting nations to the game. They have been a part of War Thunder since the release of update “Ixwa Strike” in March 2021.

Yet, they have also brought with them various controversies. From gameplay debates criticizing the addition of other nations vehicles “getting in the way” of researching the main nations vehicles, to more political discussions about what subtrees are and aren’t appropriate, especially about nations being “under” another, they have certainly not been for everyone.

But this suggestion aims to improve subtrees and take away as many of these issues as possible.

What is a “Subtree”?

Surprisingly, this has been a large debate in and of itself, especially recently.

Some consider a subtree to be a specific line of one of the various branches. An example for this would be the right line of vehicles in the British tech tree. Here players sometimes distinguish between (for example) a “Ground subtree” and an “Air subtree”, rather than thinking of it as a gamemode independent nation.

Spoiler

By that definition, this is a subtree.

However for the context of this suggestion, I will assume a subtree to represent a nation that is officially stated to be depicted within the tech tree of another. So for example the right line of the British techtree would not be a subtree, but a place where many subtree vehicles sit. Any South African vehicles, even those outside of the ground forces techtree, are also part of the subtree by this definition.

Spoiler

For the context of this suggestion, this is a subtree.

“Nation Folders”

Nation Folders, as the name suggests would improve the subtree system by completely reworking it from the ground up.

Rather than inserting another nation into the techtree of another, both nations have their own, independent techtrees. These are then both placed in a folder that is opened up when hovering over a nation in the existing nation selection bar.

Improved Example

Disclaimer: Any images and examples used serve exclusively to demonstrate the feature suggested, actual implemented nations might differ from those shown and mentioned.

Hovering over any nation that has a Nation Folder opens up the folder, allowing the selection of all nations within. The currently selected nation will be highlighted, and shown at the bottom of the folder, parallel to other nations in the nation selection bar.

Clicking on the existing “Face” nation (France in this example) selects that nation’s techtree. When selecting another nation from the folder, the techtree of that nation is selected. This is set up in the same way an existing techtrees are, with separate tabs for Army, Helicopters, Aviation, Bluewater Fleet and Coastal Fleet, provided a respective techtree of the specific type has been added for the selected nation.

Branches

The currently selected techtree will be shown in the nation bar in place of the usual “face” nation

One difference that will likely be quickly pointed out however, is that many of these nations lack the amount of vehicles to be considered competitive with other existing nations. This issue would be solved by the main feature of Nation Folders, combined lineups.

Special thanks to @Deathmisser and @patryk107 for helping to improve the concept

Spoiler

Vertical Folder Concept by patryk107
image_2024-06-12_011127891

Sweden/Finland visualization and improvement by Deathmisser


Combined lineups

The most important aspect of Nation Folders is the ability to combine lineups within a folder. For example, assuming the Italian techtree and the Hungarian one are reworked into separate, independent techtrees within a folder. However, the current Hungarian vehicles are not enough to form proper lineups. But luckily you can still combine your Hungarian vehicles with the Italian ones, since all foldered nations share the same lineups.

Research

Research is maybe the most complicated aspect of Nation Folders. Obviously with split trees usually comes split research as well, however then not all of your ground vehicles in a combined lineup could research your current goal. While this does not sound too bad at first, many nations lineups might be forced to add foreign vehicles to function, taking away valuable RP from your next research goal.

A solution here would be a system similar to helicopter research with tanks, including a checkbox system allowing you to select which nation to research.

This way, each nation has checkboxes allowing you to select one at a time. The selected nation will receive all research done by the nation the checkbox was selected in. If none is selected, research stays within a nation normally.

Additionally, unlock requirements for ranks will also overlap nations. This way, once a certain rank of a branch in one foldered nation is unlocked, the same would be unlocked for all nations in that folder. This allows a player to specifically research specific lines of other foldered nations alongside their main one to supplement their lineups to their liking.

rank_unlock

Benefits over normal subtrees

Now that the mechanic itself is explained, it’s time to explain what common issues with subtrees it fixes. For this I will use the most common issues I see players mention about subtrees and try to apply them to the Nation Folder system.

  • Clutter of Techtrees

This issue refers to a techtree of a nation holding various other vehicles through a subnation, that for many players seem uninteresting or unnecessary. Those players often wish they could skip these vehicles, and oftentimes even wish they hadn’t been added in the first place.
Nation Folders offer a way to implement new nations as an option for your lineups, not a requirement. Any nation will be playable without ever using another nation’s vehicles if that is what a player desires, however those that do want to expand their lineups have the option to do so.

  • Stolen space

Gaijin has previously stated the main tech tree for each nation will be presented as five vertical lines, with three vehicles per rank (excluding folders) at a maximum. This leads many players to fear their subtrees might take away space that could otherwise be used for indigenous vehicles.
Nation Folders do not take away from the space for any nation, allowing each nation to grow well past what would be possible with the current subtree system.

  • Political controversies

A further issue I have seen mentioned is the implication of the concept for subtrees. Hereby the “sub” in “subtree” is seen as a term to put a nation under another, which to some is seen as offensive or derogatory.
This then amplifies common political issues sometimes brought up. A good example would be discussions about Japanese subtrees, as while many nations would be both suited for such positions and are currently on friendly terms with the Japanese, the implications of being “under their rule” still can be a sensitive topic.
Nation Folders offer a system in which each nation can stand on their own, making mixed lineups purely optional. While gameplay practicality might still require the use of foreign vehicles, it is up to each individual player to decide their specific choices.

  • Premium options

From a game developer perspective Nation Folders are a large change, which obviously takes time and work to implement. However this effort does have the option to pay off, adding individual premiums to those other nations for players to buy.

Benefits over normal techtrees

“If the main goal is to get around issues as subtrees, why not add them as standalone normal nations instead?”

I see multiple reasons for this. The first and most obvious one is that this system not only affects new nations, but also existing subtrees. This helps fix potential issues with subtrees that already exist while keeping all benefits, including the main reason for most subtrees, the support of what is currently the main nation.

New nations are also not always possible or practical. Many nations that would be, or are already, added as subtrees have less options than even those, making a standalone techtree just not viable. However with the existing option to combine them in lineups with other nations this issue becomes much less pressing. And all of that while they still functionally get to act and be played as regular nations.

Possible flaws

However, as with any system, there are flaws that might come up.

  • Flags

Firstly, with individual nations being foldered, what flag would be shown in the battle statistics?
The options here are to either rely on the “main nation” as per nature of the old subtree system, create combined flags for the folders that could potentially confuse players or show all flags, potentially cluttering the interface.
This issue also applies in the hangar. My solution for this was that the flag would depend on what nation is currently selected, but to avoid confusion would revert to one default flag once you switch to a nation outside of the folder.

  • Simulator lineups

In a similar issue, how would simulator lineups be handled?
When different nations at times have different alignments at different times, such as Hungary and Italy not being on the same side during the cold war, or the cases of East/West Germany, PRC/ROC and DPRK/ROK, issues in simulator battles arise.
For this I suggest not allowing the combination of lineups in simulator battles, matchmaking purely by individual nation. However this might bring with it a variety of issues, mainly the smaller nations suffering greatly under this game mode at certain ranks and BRs.

  • Duplicate Vehicles

Sometimes a vehicle is present in multiple nations of a folder. In those cases I would still rather not see it excluded for the sake of those wanting to play either of them without the other to be able to.
However, this might also make the other nation less appealing to those that already have these vehicles.
A possible solution might be to link these vehicles between the trees. This way unlocking one would unlock identical vehicles in other foldered nations.

Conclusion

I personally believe Nation Folders would enhance the current game by improving it for those in favor of subtrees, as well as those opposed to them. It can help represent further nations in the game, support existing ones and could potentially lead to a rework of simulator gamemode matchmaking that many players want.

If you have any thoughts about it, ideas for additions or improvements feel free to add those and potentially help improve the game.

40 Likes

Sounds good in theory, but I genuinely don’t trust the snail to take this and not make the grind worse.

Instead of getting to rank 4 in just the 1 tree, now you have to get there in 3. Instead of things being in folders and 50% the RP cost or entirely skippable, now they cost 100% to research and are mandatory.

8 Likes

I would vote, but I’m less worried about the idea and more worried about the implementation:

What if Gaijin makes it so they forced us to grind for the same “rank requirements” to unlock new ranks, but instead of linking it back to the main tree, it’s separated? Who is going to guarantee that they won’t pull an uno reverse card on all of us and make this actually decent implementation into a torturous one?

Wouldn’t the idea/solution of subtrees being foldered with existing vehicles that makes sense a much better idea? It cost much less to grind a foldered vehicle than a foldered tree, since foldered vehicles are now halved the RP cost. So for example, TTD could be foldered with the Vickers Mk.7, or the Olifant Mk.2 being foldered with Chieftain Mk.10 as another example.

I wont cast a vote because while I dont mind this idea, I am much more wary about the potential of a negative implementation.

1 Like

I really love this idea, full support!

5 Likes

I don’t think there are any better solutions than this

1 Like

That’s on gaijin though, not on the suggestion

2 Likes

Those are things I also considered. With what is now subtrees then functioning as essentially independent nations they would have their own rank requirements based on available vehicles in their own tree, not hindering research of any other nation in that folder.
I was considering suggesting lower rank requirements, however since I decided against the idea of permanently locking them behind progress in another nation (assuming they start at rank 1) I feel this would not be accepted by Gaijin.

Though a possibility would be that rank requirements can be unlocked throughout all nations in a folder, as a “reach X rank in any nation and it gets unlocked” system, allowing for faster research of other nations in the folder, and allowing to (for example) research specifically another nations SPAA line if you need them for your current nation.

1 Like

Yeah and who are we suggesting it to? Gaijin obviously. The company where the devs are well known for listening to the community all the time and implementing changes we actually want.

If that isn’t obvious enough, it’s sarcasm

I like this idea a lot and gaijin can’t really use the interface as an excuse now since well we can now drag and drop vehicles into line ups.

@Smin1080p I hope this makes it into the road map as it’s a cool idea

3 Likes

I don’t wish to agree to the solution immediately unless they very clearly specify that they are going to do it exactly the way that does not screw us over. I mean we even have a recent example here where top tier players have been asking for years to downsize top tier games, and we finally got it…as an option to allow to have a chance at getting a smaller game.

1 Like

Fair enough

Though this was a good point to be brought up and I’ll add my idea for a solution to the suggestion, so thanks for the help!

Looks great! We need something like this.

1 Like

+1

This not only keeps the benefits of a sub-tree it also lets sub-trees get more than one line as more than a few need them. (or just need to have the other side of their sub-tree added like ZA air)

A system like this would make me look at sub-trees as a good thing again and not be against them.

It also comes with the benefits of allowing a nation more than one sub-tree in a way that makes sense.

1 Like

I support this, if slightly changed in terms of research balance. It would allow many more nations what otherwise might be too controversial/too small to be added while prolonging the game’s lifespan! However I am uncertain of feasibility of this feat, as it would require a lot of work to be done, not only to implement the required systems but also rework the already existing sub-trees.

I think that the way you proposed, of the main nation and the foldered ones sharing rank requirements, but I fear that, like Aqua said, will fuck us over and make them separate.
I cast my vote for yes!

1 Like

+1

1 Like

There’s so much in this suggestion that it makes me tired even trying to read it.

The fact that politics was even in it as a foreshadowing issue, is a problem as well, as there is no issue with anything being anywhere.

Like, what even is this?

It’s literally just a glorified filter, trying to let people skip portions of trees that they don’t want to use.

1 Like

I think they should try it out first with South Africa as that got a full line with a few tanks in each rank.
Along with moving all the commonwealth tanks in Britain to that sub tree folder.

1 Like

You know what…

@MAUSWAFFE
Why not make this a UI option in the options screen?
Give players the CHOICE of which system to use.

He did specifically state that it’s just ONE proposition, and it doesn’t have to be done this exact way

1 Like

What exactly do you mean by that?

Do you mean switching between nations being arranged in the tree of another and nations having their own trees? If so I feel that this would simply not be possible, as the content fitting for a while tree can not be condensed into a single line, or split between some existing lines for trees that already have 5.

But if it’s just aspects of my proposed UI, then keep in mind these are just visual examples, and don’t exactly have to represent the final product. If you have any suggestions or improvements, maybe even more detailed explanations of your idea for the toggleable UI options feel free to share them here as well.

2 Likes