Subtree Rework - Nation Folders

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Subtree Rework - Nation Folders

Subtrees are a good way to help existing nations in their efficiency and vehicle variety, while introducing new and exciting nations to the game. They have been a part of War Thunder since the release of update “Ixwa Strike” in March 2021.

Yet, they also come with with a lot of criticism. From gameplay debates criticizing the addition of other nations vehicles “getting in the way” of researching the main nations vehicles, to more political discussions about what subtrees are and aren’t appropriate, especially about nations being “under” another, they have certainly not been for everyone.

But this suggestion aims to improve subtrees and take away as many of these issues as possible.

  • If you have any thoughts about it, ideas for additions or improvements feel free to add those and potentially help improve the game.

Credit to @馮如 for his subtree rework suggestion on the old forum


What is a “Subtree”?

Spoiler

Surprisingly, this has been a large debate in and of itself, especially recently.

Some consider a subtree to be a specific line of one of the various branches. An example for this would be the right line of vehicles in the British tech tree. Here players sometimes distinguish between (for example) a “Ground subtree” and an “Air subtree”, rather than thinking of it as a gamemode independent nation.

Spoiler

By that definition, this is a subtree.

However for the context of this suggestion, I will assume a subtree to represent a nation that is officially stated to be depicted within the tech tree of another. So for example the right line of the British techtree would not be a subtree, but a place where many subtree vehicles sit. Any South African vehicles, even those outside of the ground forces techtree, are also part of the subtree by this definition.

Spoiler

For the context of this suggestion, this is a subtree.


Nation Folders

Nation Folders, as the name suggests, would improve the subtree system by completely reworking it from the ground up.

Rather than inserting another nation into the techtree of another, both nations have their own, independent techtrees. These are then both placed in a folder that is opened up when hovering over a nation in the existing nation selection bar.

Improved Example

Clicking on one of these nations opens that nation’s techtree. This is set up in the same way an existing techtrees are, with separate tabs for Army, Helicopters, Aviation, Bluewater Fleet and Coastal Fleet, provided a respective techtree of the specific type has been added for the selected nation.

Branches

The currently selected techtree will be shown in the nation bar, next to the other nations.


Special thanks to @Deathmisser and @patryk107 for helping to improve the concept

Original Concepts

Vertical Folder Concept by patryk107

image_2024-06-12_011127891

Sweden/Finland visualization and improvement by Deathmisser


Combined Lineups

Just like current subtrees, these nations still share the same crew slots, lineups and can be used together in battle in much the same way as you can now.

For example, Italian and Hungarian techtrees would share a folder in the reworked subtree system. These nations can still be used together in the same lineup.


Research

Research is done in much the same way as it is now. Despite the split tech trees, research remains shared. This means that just like the current game, all vehicles of the same branch (e.g. tanks) have a shared RP pool given to a single selected research goal.

However this also means that more often than not, the selected vehicle to research might not be in the currently selected nation.

To help keep track of research goals across nations in a folder, an indicator is added to the top right of the research tree, left of the search bar. This indicator shows the current selected vehicle for research, as well as the leftover RP needed to unlock it and the nation it is from, so that players don’t need to search for what they selected across multiple foldered nations.

Research Indicator

Additionally, unlock requirements for ranks will also overlap nations. This way, once a certain rank of a branch in one foldered nation is unlocked, the same would be unlocked for all nations in that folder.
This allows a player to specifically research specific lines of other foldered nations alongside their main one to supplement their lineups to their liking.

rank_unlock


Special thanks to @Noveos_Republic for helping to improve the research mechanics


Faction Overview

To help players keep track of the many vehicles from all foldered nations, there is a new Faction Overview separate from the national research trees.
It contains from all nations of the selected faction and allows for a better overview that can be helpful when building lineups, assessing the general capability of a faction as a whole or comparing vehicles from different foldered nations.


The Faction Overview is opened via a button in the research tree, found to the left of the search bar.

To go back to the research tree, simply click the same button again in the Faction Overview


The Faction Overview itself contains all vehicles from all foldered nations. These are organized into their separate vehicle classes (e.g. Light Tank, Medium Tank, Heavy Tank, SPAA, Tank Destroyer), as well as BRs. This makes it convenient to navigate and find vehicles from all foldered nations.

Unlike the national trees, the faction overview does not represent the research flow through the familiar arrows. However, the previous, as well as the following vehicle are shown in the statcard:

Overview_Statcard

Inspired by Gaijin's "The previous vehicle must be researched"

image_2024-12-05_231103624

Selecting a vehicle in the Faction Overview also gives a new option to view it in the respective research tree, making it easy to check the exact positions in the research tree and plan out your research.
jump_to_tree


Special thanks to @AlvisWisla for his original idea


Benefits over normal Subtrees

Optional Nations; Playing the foldered nations is purely optional, and each of them can be played independently if a player wants to.

Additional Space; Each nation has it’s own trees, allowing for 5 vertical lines of space for each nation that can be used to add exciting new vehicles and create logical and intuitive progression.

Subree Controversy; All foldered nations are treated as equal, independent nations within their folder, there is no “main” nations the others are placed under. This helps avoid sensitive topics of nations being “under the rule” of another.

Flags; The display of national flags can be more dynamic. In battle, flags for all nations present in your lineup may be shown as part of the team, while in hangar the currently selected nation becomes the face nation for that faction.

Simulator Lineups; With a more clear distinction of nations, Gaijin could introduce Simulator matchmaking based on operating nation. For example Warsaw pact Hungary could be placed on the opposing side to NATO Italy.


Benefits over normal Techtrees

“If the main goal is to get around issues as subtrees, why not add them as standalone normal nations instead?”

I see multiple reasons for this. The first and most obvious one is that this system not only affects new nations, but also existing subtrees. This helps fix issues with subtrees that already exist, while keeping all benefits, including the main reason for most subtrees, the support of what is currently the main nation.

New nations are also not always possible or practical. Many nations simply have less vehicle options, making a standalone techtree just not viable. However with the existing option to combine them in lineups with other nations this issue becomes much less pressing and smaller nations become viable additions to the game. And all of that while they still functionally get to act and be played as regular nations.


I personally believe Nation Folders would enhance the current game by improving it for those in favor of subtrees, as well as those opposed to them. It can help represent further nations in the game, support existing ones and could potentially lead to a rework of simulator gamemode matchmaking that many players want.

97 Likes

Sounds good in theory, but I genuinely don’t trust the snail to take this and not make the grind worse.

Instead of getting to rank 4 in just the 1 tree, now you have to get there in 3. Instead of things being in folders and 50% the RP cost or entirely skippable, now they cost 100% to research and are mandatory.

25 Likes

I would vote, but I’m less worried about the idea and more worried about the implementation:

What if Gaijin makes it so they forced us to grind for the same “rank requirements” to unlock new ranks, but instead of linking it back to the main tree, it’s separated? Who is going to guarantee that they won’t pull an uno reverse card on all of us and make this actually decent implementation into a torturous one?

Wouldn’t the idea/solution of subtrees being foldered with existing vehicles that makes sense a much better idea? It cost much less to grind a foldered vehicle than a foldered tree, since foldered vehicles are now halved the RP cost. So for example, TTD could be foldered with the Vickers Mk.7, or the Olifant Mk.2 being foldered with Chieftain Mk.10 as another example.

I wont cast a vote because while I dont mind this idea, I am much more wary about the potential of a negative implementation.

4 Likes

I really love this idea, full support!

6 Likes

I don’t think there are any better solutions than this

2 Likes

That’s on gaijin though, not on the suggestion

3 Likes

Those are things I also considered. With what is now subtrees then functioning as essentially independent nations they would have their own rank requirements based on available vehicles in their own tree, not hindering research of any other nation in that folder.
I was considering suggesting lower rank requirements, however since I decided against the idea of permanently locking them behind progress in another nation (assuming they start at rank 1) I feel this would not be accepted by Gaijin.

Though a possibility would be that rank requirements can be unlocked throughout all nations in a folder, as a “reach X rank in any nation and it gets unlocked” system, allowing for faster research of other nations in the folder, and allowing to (for example) research specifically another nations SPAA line if you need them for your current nation.

2 Likes

Yeah and who are we suggesting it to? Gaijin obviously. The company where the devs are well known for listening to the community all the time and implementing changes we actually want.

If that isn’t obvious enough, it’s sarcasm

I like this idea a lot and gaijin can’t really use the interface as an excuse now since well we can now drag and drop vehicles into line ups.

@Smin1080p I hope this makes it into the road map as it’s a cool idea

6 Likes

I don’t wish to agree to the solution immediately unless they very clearly specify that they are going to do it exactly the way that does not screw us over. I mean we even have a recent example here where top tier players have been asking for years to downsize top tier games, and we finally got it…as an option to allow to have a chance at getting a smaller game.

1 Like

Fair enough

Though this was a good point to be brought up and I’ll add my idea for a solution to the suggestion, so thanks for the help!

1 Like

Looks great! We need something like this.

1 Like

+1

This not only keeps the benefits of a sub-tree it also lets sub-trees get more than one line as more than a few need them. (or just need to have the other side of their sub-tree added like ZA air)

A system like this would make me look at sub-trees as a good thing again and not be against them.

It also comes with the benefits of allowing a nation more than one sub-tree in a way that makes sense.

3 Likes

I support this, if slightly changed in terms of research balance. It would allow many more nations what otherwise might be too controversial/too small to be added while prolonging the game’s lifespan! However I am uncertain of feasibility of this feat, as it would require a lot of work to be done, not only to implement the required systems but also rework the already existing sub-trees.

I think that the way you proposed, of the main nation and the foldered ones sharing rank requirements, but I fear that, like Aqua said, will fuck us over and make them separate.
I cast my vote for yes!

1 Like

+1

1 Like

There’s so much in this suggestion that it makes me tired even trying to read it.

The fact that politics was even in it as a foreshadowing issue, is a problem as well, as there is no issue with anything being anywhere.

Like, what even is this?

It’s literally just a glorified filter, trying to let people skip portions of trees that they don’t want to use.

1 Like

I think they should try it out first with South Africa as that got a full line with a few tanks in each rank.
Along with moving all the commonwealth tanks in Britain to that sub tree folder.

1 Like

You know what…

@MAUSWAFFE
If Gaijin separates the graphical part of the research screen from the mechanical backend, then columns could exist alongside the existing interface and your idea with a variety of methods to seamlessly tie research together.
Give players the CHOICE of which system to use.

I don’t inherently oppose the idea; I personally oppose the replacement of a graphical interface that I and many others are comfortable with.

Edited for clarification.

He did specifically state that it’s just ONE proposition, and it doesn’t have to be done this exact way

1 Like

What exactly do you mean by that?

Do you mean switching between nations being arranged in the tree of another and nations having their own trees? If so I feel that this would simply not be possible, as the content fitting for a while tree can not be condensed into a single line, or split between some existing lines for trees that already have 5.

But if it’s just aspects of my proposed UI, then keep in mind these are just visual examples, and don’t exactly have to represent the final product. If you have any suggestions or improvements, maybe even more detailed explanations of your idea for the toggleable UI options feel free to share them here as well.

2 Likes