Challenger 2 MBT - Technical data and Discussion (Part 1)

[Morvran]

This thread is a WIP, please let me know if I’ve missed anything or made any mistakes.

I wanted to create a central place to discuss the Challenger 2 and to consolidate the bug reports and create a master list of threads/bug reports for it

History

In 1986, then Vickers Defense Systems began a private venture to update and extensively redesign the pre-existing Challenger 1. By 1988 they had a working prototype and over the next several years it was refined and imrpoved. In 1991 140x Challenger 2s were ordered followed by a further 268 in 1994. The tank entered operational service in 1998 and subsequently replaced the earlier Challenger 1.

It has seen active service in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo and Iraq.

The only Challenger 2 ever lost during operations was due to a frriendly fire incidient in Basra on 25 March 2003. It was mistakenly hit and destroyed by another Challenger 2.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlcRsMB9SwM&t=1258s

Technical Specs

Crew

4 Crew: Driver, Loader, Gunner and Commander

Dimensions:
Length: 8.32m
Height: 2.49m
Width: 3.56m

Weight: 64’000kg
Speed:
37mph (59kph) on road
25mph (40kph) off-road

Drive Systems

Engine
Perkins CV12-6A V12 disesel 26.1L
1,200 BHP
18.7 hp/t at 64 t
16 hp/t at 75 t

Gear Box
TN54E epicyclical transmission
6 Forward Gears
2 Reverse Gears

Suspension
Horstman Defence Systems second-generation hydrogas suspension units (HSU)

Weapon Systems

Turret
Rotation speed 360° in 9 seonds (40°/s)

Main Armament
L30A1 - 120mm (55 Calibre) Rifled barrel

Ammunition
49 Maximum Shells
L23A1 APFSDS
L26 APFSDS
L27A1 APFSDS (Charm 3)
L28A1 APFSDS
L31 HESH
L34 White Phosphorus Smoke

Secondary Armament
L94A1 Coaxial 7.62mm chain gun
L37A1 7.62mm Loader hatch Machine gun

Optional
Leonardo “Enforcer” remote control weapon system, can be fitted with:
L37A2 7.62mm Machine gun
12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun
40mm Automatic grenade launcher

Armour
Chobham Armour (Dorchester)
Optional NERA plates

Linked Threads

Spoiler

Challenger 2 TES and Challenger 2 (2F) (Dorchester 2F) IED equipment and barracuda

Fixing Challenger 2 ammunition rack locations

Challenger 2 TES vs Challenger 2F

Fixing the TES with all available research

Specs for Challenger 1, 2 & 3

Spoiler

Challenger MBT Technical Data and Discussion

Old Forum Threads

Spoiler

Challenger 2 - The information thread - Medium Vehicles - War Thunder - Official Forum

[Morvran]

Legwolf’s detailed breakdown of issues:

Challenger 2 needs to be brought to developers attention

Hey folks, I’m writing this as an open letter to the Developers, Moderators, Community Managers and any other relevent Gaijin employees on behalf of any concerned and disgruntled members of our community. Please take a moment to read and support if you can: The Challenger 2, across pretty much every source you can find, is touted as perhaps the most well-armored and well protected MBT currently in use by an armed forces. With such feats as suriving a total of 70 RPG impacts, never being lost b…

Please check it out!

Please let me know if there is any missed items / bug reports for this post

Missing Features

• Missing Regenerative steering

Bug List

Challenger 2 Bugs:

Mobility related

• Challenger 2 (All): Turning issue when at low speed (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Low speed Turning gearing issues (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Gears causing jerking and loss of speed (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Pivot Turning issues
• Challenger 2 (All) Mobility issues

Armour/survivability

Base Armour

• Challenger 2 (All): Incorrect Mantlet armour/Protection (Dev Post)
• Challenger 2 (All) - Missing Spall liners
• Challenger 2 (All): Turret Side armour too weak (Dev Post)
• Challenger 2 (All): Missing composite armour in turret roof
• Challenger 2 (All): Turret points cause shells to ignore rest of armour
• Challenger 2 (All) - Turret bustle should be RHA instead of CHA
• Challenger 2 (All) Turret composite too small
• Challenger 2 (All): UFP Spall liner should be split

Extneral Armour

• Challenger 2 (All): Incorrect additional side armour composition (Partial fix)
• Challenger 2 (2F & 2E): UFP add-ons missing thickness and effectiveness
• Challenger 2 (2F): Side external armour doesnt work
• Challenger 2 (TES): Incorrect armour values (Closed)
• Challenger 2 (2F, TES & OES): Incorrect external armour
• Challenger 2 (2F, TES & OES) Expected add-on armour values
• Challenger 2: side blocks should be 200mm thick
• Challenger 2 (BN) UFP Model Incorrect
• Challenger 2 (2F & TES): Side armour protection levels
• Challenger 2 (All): Missing spall liner on the LFP
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): SPRO-HMT CE resistance
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): ASPRO-HMT should have higher KE
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): Backing Plate
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): Applique Armor shouldn’t detonate to KE
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): Baseplate configuration is backwards
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): Applique Armour name and type
• Challenger 2: ASPRO-HMT incorrect protection

Internal Armour

• Challenger 2 (All): Turret basket ammunition bin unprotected
• Challenger 2 (TES): Internal armour ignored by shells
• Challenger 2 (All): Turnnion pins missing
• Challenger 2 (All): Missing armour around gun mantlet
• Challenger 2 (All): Ammunition Armoured Stowage Bins Too Thin (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Missing internal bulkheads

Other components

• Challenger 2 (All): Incorrect ammo storage placement (Dev Post)
  (Additional Information)
• Bag charges detonating too easily (needs further research and bug report)
• Challenger 2 (All): Inert APFSDS storage in Challenger tank is counted as explosive.
• Incorrect Gunner and Commander position
• Challenger 2 (All) Ammo Position issues
• Challenger 2 (All & Other Tanks): Incorrect behaviour of Ammunition (Game limitation)
• Challenger 2 (OES): Incorrect ammo bin thickness

APS

• Challenger 2 Black Night: Iron Fist targetting Sabot discards (Believed to be fixed)
• Challenger 2 (BN): Iron FIst missing soft kill function
• Challenger 2 (BN): Iron fist Hard-Kill APS Issue
• Challenger 2 (BN): Iron Fist Launcher randomly spinning

Remodel

• Challenger 2 (All): Mantlet Thickness Issues (Closed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Drivers Area Thickness Too Thin (Closed)

Weapon Systems

Optics/Thermals

• Challenger 2 (BN): Gunners Optics are blocked when elevating the Gun (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Commander should have thermals when aiming

Main gun

• Incorrect turret rotation speed (sourced found confirm 12 second rotation time not 9 under normal conditions)
• Challenger 2 (All): L27A1 pen incorrect, should be closer to 700mm (Game
  limitations) (Dev Post)
• Challenger 2 (All): L27A1 CHARM 3 penetration too low
• Challenger 2 (All): Incorrect ready rack
• Incorrect reload speed
• Challenger 2 (All): Incorrect side depression for main gun (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Ammo Stowage and first stage incorrect

Other armament

• Leonardo “Enforcer” for all Chally 2 (with potential weapon choice)
• 12.7mm HMG (AKA 50.Cal) for all Chally 2
• Missing 40mm Grenade Launcher?
• Challenger 2 (2F & TES): Incorrect ammo count for Enforcer 7.62mm. Should be 200 rounds with optional 400 round mag, currently 100 (Fixed)

Miscellaneous

• Challenger 2(All): Missing meteo-sesnor mast
• Challenger 2 (All): Model issue, Missing wash plate
• Challenger 2 (All): ESS coming out of the wrong exhausts(fixed)
• Challenger 2 (All): Wrong X-Ray of the Challenger 2E engine Compartment
• Challenger 2 (Black Night) Incorrect Gun Trunnion Position (Fixed In future version)
• Challenger 2 (2, 2F, TES & BN) Incorrect engine sounds (Fixed)
• Challenger 2 (OES): Incorrect Armour skirt plate texture
• Challenger 2 (TES & OES): Rear Grille Armour damaged model issue
• Challenger 2 (TES): Baracuda thermal stealth blanket for TES
• Challenger 2 (TES): ERA not getting visually destroyed (Fixed in a future version)
• Challenger 2 (2F, TES & OES): low quality Camo netting

Challenger 2 Suggestions;

• Camo Netting

Challenger 3 Bugs (shall live here for now):

• Challenger 3(P): Incorrect name (Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): armor missing and not aligh with the model (Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): missing armor around the ammunition storage (Fixed in a future version)
• Challenger 3(TD): Incorrect Weight (Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): Missing Spall Liner (Fixed, but to hull only, more data needed for turret)
• Challenger 3(TD): Missing composite armour in turret roof
• Challenger 3(TD: Turret Side armour too weak
• Challenger 3(TD): Model issue: Missing anti-slipping surfaces (Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): Incorrect Engine sound (Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): turret floor invisible and missplaced(Fixed)
• Challenger 3(TD): incorrect KE protection on turret cheeks (Fixed in future Version)
• Challenger 3(TD): Turret Bustle should be RHA instead of CHA
• Challenger 3(TD) Turret composite too small
• Challenger 3(TD): Missing armour around gun mantlet
• Challenger 3(TD): Turret Bustle ammunition not exploding/venting (Fixed in a future version)
• Challenger 3(TD): Wrong road wheels

[Sombralix]

120mm L28A1 APFSDS is missing

[Morvran]

Thanks

[Legwolf]

You can remove the “making challenger TES worth the time investment” post, that one’s depreciated and “Fixing TES with all available research” should be referenced instead ^w^

[Morvran]

Okaydokie!

[Sombralix]

Would be good to also list the different propellant charges used by L27A1 and also velocity if we have any info

[Morvran]

I’m not overly sure where to look for that, but if anyone has that data, I’ll definetly add it

[Morvran]

I was already thinking that we could do with swapping out the MGs on all the CR2s with the “Leonardo “Enforcer” remote control weapon system” Like we have on the TES just to get rid of the magic “ghost” guns we have currently. But no idea if it could be outfitted to all 4 other variants we have currently

[Legwolf]

While I haven’t completed my research post on CR2s armor, i’ll post these here as i’m sure it’ll come up at some point: here’s photographs of CR2s mantlet armor. As you can see, its mostly hollow except for the giant flat metal surface at the front of the breach. It’s hollow, not filled with NERA as the TOGS II electrical and signal cabling is fed through here.
Challenger 2E does not use TOGS though it’s unclear if the mantlet was reinforced with the extra space it now has.
There’s design reviews by manufacturers who clearly state the CR2 mantlet is considered a problematic area for a potential kill on CR2 if hit. Still researching if this was ever fixed and i’m digging up more info as I go along, but for the most part - here’s what we can see so far.

[Legwolf]

Just incase we end up with folks saying there’s triangle shaped NERA plates in there again haha
That said: I believe the armor thickness on the front of the mantlet MIGHT be NERA or just very thick steel. It’s far thicker than the game estimates though, just that the mantlet isnt filled with anything.

You can see where the strikeface ends and the hollow area begins on that last photo just under the gunner backup sights. See how there’s a noticable lip? Its also divides in two, like its laminated so possibly Steel ontop or NERA/Chobham. Unsure but there’s something going on there.

I do this research in my spare time as a senior analyst for one of the UKs universities, so i’ll dig through whatever tomes i’ve got to play with to say for sure or draw reasonable conclusions for.

[da12thmonkey]

@Legwolf

As you can see, its mostly hollow except for the giant flat metal surface at the front of the breach. It’s hollow, not filled with NERA as the TOGS II electrical and signal cabling is fed through here.

Wire harnesses pictured are only about an inch diameter. The void needed to run them through isn’t necessarily very deep set from the bottom of the mantle

[Fireball_2020]

Mate…

Challenger MBT Technical Data and Discussion

Challenger 1: Crew: 4, Driver, Loader, Gunner, Commander Weight: 62,500kg Speed: 56km/h Length: 11.5 m Width: 3.51 m Height: 2.95 m Main Gun: L11A5 Ammunition: L26A1 - 4.85kg, 1540m/s L23A1 - 3.89kg, 1547m/s L15A5 - 10.4kg, 1370m/s L31A7 - 17.1kg, 4.08kg filler. Sighting Equipment: TOGS, ? Stabilisation/Gun Laying Equipment: IFCS(Early), CSS(Late) Elevation/Depression: +20/-10 Degrees Engine: CV12-4A(1200bhp @2300rpm, ?@1700rpm?), 2500rpm Max. Transmission: TN37E Torque Conver…

[Morvran]

Missed that, though that does cover all 3 Challengers not specifically the Challenger 2.

[Legwolf]

Take a look at image 1 and image 2. You can see where the wires get fed from and through. All the images suggest at the very least, the left side is a completely void cavity, with only the strikeface being armored and the breach face.
Whats on the right side - i’ve got no data but the appearance of an access panel similar to the left side with the wiring suggests it too, is hollow though the purpose of this is unclear.
There is likely far more protection than WT estimates, but it’s not got NERA composite wedges in there.

[Fireball_2020]

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/GX8sVMGyoiMg

[Fireball_2020]

Reminder, it’s been reported.

[Legwolf]

You’re a champion, Fireball 🧡
Love your work, dude

[duckmartin]

Have you checked here out ??

Challenger 2 - The information thread

[Morvran]

I havent yet. I didnt think to actually check for a thread on the old forums. Woops. I’ll link it above and have a read through when I get a chance for things to add to this up-to-date thread