Sick of getting killed by AAA defending bases at prop BRs? Support bug report

This thread was created for prop pilots in Air RB in order to support this bug report

Edit to make things clear:
Edit 2: As usual, the update as of today killed the possibility to view “pre-update” replays - i will replace the following example asap.

Buffed aaa defending the 4 bases alters game results as 10-15% of active players might get killed if you play on the wrong map. Invest 2 minutes - just watch this replay (replay link) and see how 3 players got killed instantly and one delayed - just in a single match:

  1. You will see a friendly Wyvern (smn8888) attacking the far left base. He was set on fire at around 2:40, somehow managed to drop and killed the base but was then set on fire by aaa defending the other base at ~ 3:00 and died to aaa at ~ 3:20.
  2. The friendly Wyvern attacking the far right base was killed by base aaa at 2:57 without the chance to drop.
  3. At around 12:00 an enemy B-25 attacked a friendly base at around 700 meters alt, got peppered by base aaa, was able to drop thx to more sturdy damage model and was then killed by base aaa.
  4. Technically seen the enemy A21 (crashed ~ 14:18) was also killed by base aaa - he attacked ground and attacked then aaa around the base aaa which killed his friendly B-25, got pepped like hell and received an engine hit - without a totally yellow plane and engine damage he would have survived.

If you identify yourself as PvE player - you should know the topic.
If you identify yourself as PvP player - you are affected too.

If you play props in Air RB you might have noticed that a hell of players get shot down by aaa around the 4 mini-bases on maps with a “newer layout” very early game - if you check the battle log you see “shot down by air defense” - the same log you see if somebody got killed by the deadly “hit-scan” airfield aaa.

It looks like that gaijin has (imho by accident) buffed the aaa around the mini-bases/bases/bombing points (call it like you want) to the level of the well known deadly airfield aaa.

If you look for official communication - you will find sooner or later this:

Dated September 2023.

If you follow the forum closely, you will find a lot of threads dealing with this issue. What i do not understand is the rather low attention level of this topic within the community and even in the game itself.

If you know that you are on a map with hit-scan aaa defended bases and try to warn your low attacking teammates there is little to zero reaction - everybody is either ignoring this or is simply not able to understand English on the EU server.

I seems that most players simply underestimate the results of this mass dying of aircraft for all involved plane classes.

Some threads dealing with AAA defending bases:

List of threads...

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Example 8
I am sure there are more…


I tried to summarize the player feedback:

Summary

The player feedback can be boiled down to the following:

  1. This deadly aaa defending bases is not consistent, so on certain maps you can attack bases low, on others not.
  2. On maps with hit-scan aaa defending bases it is impossible even for very fast aircraft like Wyverns to drop their payload on bases.
  3. Strike aircraft and especially premium strike aircraft like Wyverns or the Italian Bf 110 which were bought by players especially to speed up the grind by bombing bases get shot down like flies - artificially increasing death rates and lowering income; both values affect the BR setting of such aircraft. Imho those aircraft received a nerf which highly affects players which bought them especially to bomb bases.
  4. Medium bombers like (Do 217s, Tu-2s or even B-26s) which have to rely on very fast and low level attack profiles (due to bad climb and bad performance at higher alt) might be able to survive one drop on one base if they release their payload at very high speed followed by an immediate 180 turn near rip speed, but attacking 2 bases and survive this run became (nearly) impossible.
  5. Every plane without a bomb sight (and therefore forced to perform a low lel run), but carry A2G loadout trying to kill a base will be shoot down. So the classic P-47 pilot with max bomb load has no chance to survive too.
  6. The classification as threat for a base is not connected if you carry currently bombs or rockets, as even if you have attacked and killed the far left base and you have no bombs left you will be killed 10 minutes later by the base aaa on the far right side.
  7. Even more irritating is that on maps with deadly base aaa some bases have them, others not.
  8. This creates for aircraft capable of bombing and dogfighting like Fireflys, Su-6s or B7A2s the situation that you might have attacked and killed base #1 successfully (as there was no deadly aaa) and you get jumped by enemies, you fight them and get dragged near base # 2, 3 or 4 and got immediately killed by aaa - as there is deadly aaa.
  9. Things get complicated if you fly an aircraft far away from already killed bases and you attack ground units due to whatever reason. With bad luck a “fresh” (respawning base) will appear near you - and you get killed instantly.
  10. Even if you try to stay out of trouble, but you spot an enemy below you trying to kill a base - if you try a BnZ attack on them and you pass the aircraft at the exact moment when the hit-scan aaa opens fire - you get killed by your own base aaa.

I could go on forever with this, but imho these are the major points.


The main question is:

Are you affected and how are you affected?


A: Pure fighter pilots

Summary

As a pure fighter pilot you might argue: Idc about aaa defending bases, this is not my problem. I kill enemy planes, and i am happy if guys not contributing to the TDM PvP effort get killed.

This position has the following flaws:

  1. Base aaa kills your potential easy target without giving you the chance to score or earn RP/SL.
  2. If your own team consists of a lot of strike fighters and they get sniped before all less smart enemies took the chance to dive on them, you have a number disadvantage without ticket drop and you won’t have the chance to get rather cheap kills.
  3. Some very capable strike aircraft able to drag enemy fighters away (and low and out of the center) and kill them after drop (like Su-6 & 8, Wyvern, etc.) won’t reduce the number of enemy fighters if base aaa kills them.
  4. Some maps require to kill tanks or pillboxes to reduce enemy tickets to avoid ticket defeats or just to end the match. As soon as you load bomb or rockets you are a target of base aaa - even if you drop all if the last enemy comes near you - you can’t fight above or even near enemy bases or you get shot down.

B. Pure bomber pilots

Summary

As a pure level/strategic bomber pilot you might argue: Idc about aaa defending bases, not my problem. I am happy that those strike aircraft get sniped, they always steal my marked bases.

This position has imho the following flaws:

  1. Fighters / Interceptors with tasks like kill “X” strike aircraft have less targets if base aaa kills own strike aircraft too fast - this increases the numbers of kill hungry enemies not diving which decreases your overall chances to drop or rtb.
  2. If all enemy strike aircraft learn that they might die to base aaa even more of them will try to get rather easy bomber kills. Seeing that even Me 264s get killed by Wyverns - you need to climb more or fly larger detours to have a chance to drop.
  3. In the rare case that you survived the first run and you have free second run: You need to gain altitude (minimum 3, better 4 km) to attack multiple bases. Climbing slows down your approach and gives the remaing enemies a chance to repair/rearm and gives them the chance to intercept you before drop.
  4. For ambitious bombers trying to ground with turrets or to kill the last enemy by acting as a gunship - you get peppered like hell, the last enemy can use base aaa like af aaa, so your chances to avoid ticket defeats or to win by killing the last enemy drop significantly.

C. Multirole aircraft/Strike aircraft:

Summary

In principle the downsides of pure fighters and pure bombers combined. Even if you dropped the payload right after spawn base aaa will target you. So if your plane can dogfight you have to avoid to fight/attack above enemy bases at all cost. Imho the only exception for strike aircraft: If you planes has the option for custom loadout (so if you can choose - no loadout like bombs/etc).


So where ever you position yourself, i see no real benefit for any involved party:

  1. Fighters have less targets and the outcome of matches became an even more random event. In case they need to bomb by themselves they are targets too.
  2. Pure level/high alt bomber pilots get a mixed bag for their first run (less base stealing, but more enemies going for them) and a clear disadvantage for rare 2nd runs.
  3. Strike-/Multrole capable aircraft have to rely on luck (has the map hit-scan base aaa or not) and have to consider that everything around enemy bases is a no-fly zone - so if you want to intercept the last enemy you have to climb 4 km above the bases and can only attack if the enemy has left the bubble.
  4. Gaijin will sooner or later realize that players looking for SL printers by base
    bombing will reduce their buys - as soon as the players are aware of this. I am actually wondering why no yt cc has addressed this. I mean if one of the main selling points of Wyverns or Ju 288s is their high chance to kill bases - if they take this chance away, there is (at least for use in Air RB for base bombing) no need for them if they can’t drop. And the players having such planes are for sure not happy about the current situation. In addition the buffed base aaa with hitscan alters artificially plane statistics - with subsequent effects on BR terminations.

So in case you are not happy with the current situation - i created a bug report, claiming that hit-scan base aaa must be a bug as it prevent props without bomb sights to attack enemy bases - a major income source for a lot of players on their journey to grind.

By clicking on “I have the same problem” you add attention to this bug report which might help to speed up the processing of this report.

Thx in advance!


PS: I do not perform low-level runs to bomb bases - i am simply extremely annoyed by these new no-fly zones on some maps. The overall improvement of game play by deleting af aaa on forward airfields (and reducing no-fly zones) got killed by this aaa buff.

4 Likes

Gets even worse when you include SB with the convoys into this as well. The AA defending the bases is incredibly weak compared to those SPAA in the convoys. The really need to do something about this SPAA, at all BRs.

3 Likes

Sorry to hear that - but it was a hell of work to create this for Air RB. Any support from SB players for this bug report is welcome!

As i claim no intellectual ownership - feel free to copy the report and modify it for Air SB. Have a good one!

1 Like

I’m sorry WHAT?? : )
If you identify yourself as PvE player, you have the wrong game, buddy ^^

Clearly I’m not happy because my threat was quoted as well in your nice summary of the issue, however I’m not sure that creating a bug thread about the feature is the right way to go.

Also, I was under the impression that this issue was remedied to some extent - in my experience base AA seems to be less accurate that before. I am not sure about this tho.

EDIT I understand the Gaijin dilemma, these systems should have the potential to harm you, I propose that they should be able to damage the player gradually but not kill him outright.

The main issue of using this phrase was to draw the attention of pure fighter pilots to this topic - in the shortest possible manner. Sometimes a small portion of humor helps to get attention. I would assume it might have worked at least once :-)

But judging by facts (= 57 views of this thread and just 4 “i have the same issue” votes) i was a useless exercise, just a few passionate pilots felt the need to support this.

Short answer:

Creating forum threads did not work, creating “standard” bug reports did not work - if you see alternatives plz let me know.

Longer answer:

Summary

I agree with your assessment, but imho there are no other options. I mean if gaijin it self admitted that they “fixed” the “excessive accuracy” 6 months ago you can come to the conclusion that it was not intended to create additional “death bubbles” on the map.

So by arguing that their “fix” implied a previous malfunction (aka as bug) looked as solid reasoning for a bug report.

Seeing that a lot of other player already expressed their dislike of the current situation within the forum (and nothing changed) and i saw a lot of already addressed and rejected bug reports (with the standard reply “not a bug”) i created this report:

Summary

I kindly ask you not even to think about closing this report (like many others dealing with the same issue) with your standard reply:

This is not a bug, if you want to make a suggestion…

If you read further you learn why.With the update 2.29.0.35 gaijin informed the player base with the following message:

Update 2.29.0.35

…that an issue with way too accurate “anti-aircraft guns” defending bases was fixed. As this site is created to report “issues” and only bugs can be “fixed”, addressing that this announced fix is not working is a clear bug - and not anywhere near a “suggestion”.

What is the bug:

  1. Somebody within gaijin has (obviously unintended) played with accuracy settings of plain and simple aaa locations (usually 4) around the (usually 4) mini-bases/bombing points or short “bases” foreseen as targets for every aircraft able to carry bombs.
  2. These settings transformed the usually harmless 2 light anti-air guns into deadly killer aaa with the same accuracy settings as the well known deadly airfield aaa. The 2 other guns are heavy aa guns which usually can’t hit you if you don’t fly straight and fast enough.
  3. The official message “way too accurate anti-air guns are fixed” is imho just relevant for a few maps. On most of the maps i am aware of, this “way too accurate” aaa is still active - and my fellow strike aircraft players die like flies and get killed even in the fastest planes with >600 km on tree top level up to 3 km distance before they are even close to those bases.
  4. As this deadly aaa is not even consistent on all maps,surviving a low base run became a random event. The imho high number of planes getting killed without any player interactions has severe effects on game play for all other plane classes too, described them in detail in a forum post (link below).

Why is this a bug:

  1. As explained earlier, gaijin itself admitted that an “issue with way too accurate anti-aircraft guns was fixed” - this implies that it was not intended, unfortunately the “fix” failed.
  2. It would make no sense for gaijin to implement a severe income nerf for a highly popular aircraft class like strike aircraft and other planes able to carry heavy bombloads like P-47s or the imho sole bomber without a bombsight, the Brigand. And due to missing bombsights those players have to attack low. And it is an income nerf if those player get shot down before they can drop.
  3. Seeing the “riots” of May 2023 and gaijin’s attempts to regain trust from players combined with various improvements regarding SL/RP income supported by repair cost reductions it would make even less sense to introduce a hidden income nerf.
  4. With the introduction of the Starfighter update in May 2020 gaijin added respawning bases in Air RB. Since those days the sale of bombers / strike aircraft exploded as high performance aircraft like Ju 288s or Wyverns created a high chance to earn SL/RP with a successful bomb run. Without this high confidence to generate income there would be no need to buy and use them for basebombing in Air RB. Without this purpose all yt cc would have to revise their premium recommendations. So why should gaijin risk a decrease of sales of highly popular premium aircraft by implementing mechanics to make them useless? Imho the most convincing evidence that this is bug.

How can you reproduce this bug?

I will add a list of maps used at my preferred BR 3.7 / 4.0 which have this deadly base aaa. Do a test flight on them and try to bomb a base at low alt in a plane with bombs, but without bombsight.
I will add also a few replays of matches (3 should be enough) in which you can see aircraft getting killed before bomb drop.

Can you quantify the number of planes getting killed by base aaa in order to verify the impact?

Of course - just run a query of all aircraft killed within the first 4 minutes with the reason “killed by air defense” around BR 4.0/4.3 (=Wyvern) in February 2024 and compare them with idk August 2023. With the 4 minute limit you get the hordes of bots out of the equation as even if the ran on purpose into the airfield aaa - it takes longer than 4 minutes to get there (except the known Frontline maps like Mozdok & Co.).

How is this bug affecting game play and other plane classes?

I kindly ask yo to read this post in the wt forum:

Sick of getting killed by AAA defending bases at prop BRs? Support bug report

I collected links to threads dealing with this “issue” and summarized the player feedback. In addition i summarized direct and indirect impacts for all plane classes.

If you need further information, please let me know, Thank you very much in advance!

I admit that it is a lot to read and might be way too much for the average forum user, thats why i used spoilers in my OP andhoped for the best.

I see no dilemma - from a holistic pov wt is a plain shooter. PvE targets are just there to give players the illusion that PvE action might be a possible way to play Air RB - despite the mode is created as a TDM mode.

So if they try to encourage players to grind whole TTs with plain simple tasks like base bombing it makes zero sense to implement instant kill mechanics which prevent them to do so.

I mean gaijin has a solid track record with messing around with aaa settings in Air RB.

Almost all will remember the deadly midfield aaa in 2022, later some WW 2 prop pilots were slammed by gatling aaa’s during dogfights - i even remember the Lancaster getting killed by Roland SAMs some time ago.

And i would say that gaijin needs way too much time to realize if something goes wrong - mainly as some effects have either a delayed impact or are not easy to identify if you just look at data.

Yeah, I think it should be a flat change though, based AA, convoy AA, etc. if one is fixed hopefully they are all fixed

Agreed in general but i have my doubts that anything get fixed soon - just few guys care:

  • 83 views of this thread
  • 9 views of the bug report
  • 5 times “i have the same issue”

The figures are clear indicators that either the majority does not care, i expected too much reading willingness or, most likely, the majority of players getting killed are not active in the forum. Players addressing this in older posts learned to deal with it and found workarounds.

We will see…

1 Like

Yeah, I also think people have given up. At least with SB it will get nerfed and then over the course of the next 1 to 2 updates. It will be back again. They’ve nerfed the AA about 3 times and it’s just as bad as I remember from 2 years ago

2 Likes

Oh look, looks like gaijin listened to you finaly! Oh wait, no, you said decrease, welll they seemingly increased base AA defense. See those 3 guys?

Well you don’t see them anymore
Shot by base defenses, 3 planes in 30 seconds, gg, much fun!

shot 2024.03.14 21.38.51

1 Like

Thx for sharing this. And sorry to see this.

I am not sure how to reply to this, because of the pure randomness of this op base aaa phenomenon.

I tried to get replays to add them to the bug report. So i played ~ 15 matches on Tuesday. Believe it or not, but i saw not a single plane dying to aaa - and i hoped for the best.

But i noticed that i played only on maps where i haven’t noticed buffed base AAA before, so i hoped that they just took affected maps out of the rotation. To be fair i played on Smolensk and Op Kuban too (which has buffed aaa) but the bases were either taken by classic base bombers or there were no low flying guys trying to bomb bases.

But on the 13th early morning my second match showed the results i presented at the beginning of the OP. Ofc the update corrupted the replay, but the Tech mods can detect the version and view older replays.

Maybe it helps if you add the map name in the bug report or just share it, so i will add it. Thx in advance!

PS: Using a fighter to base bomb? Shame on you :-)

I added a comment to a changelog from September 2023 in the hope that Stona can create some awareness within the devs.

I am not sure if the devs are aware of the fact that their concept “every aircraft without bombs and rockets and has not attacked ground should be save” is not working as base aaa targets and kills you even if you dropped your payload right after spawn / take off.

Same as that their update fix is not working and in December a lot of players noticed this sudden increase of “killed by air defense”.

So maybe this and the provided player feedback bundled in this thread is enough evidence to convince the devs that they might check this…

It depends on the maps and the used plane.

The issue comes not only in reduction of strike aircraft going for bases. The longer you play on certain maps you will see late game a hell of standard fighters strafing ground ai in order to get some points. If the ground units are too close to enemy bases those guys get peppered like hell.

In other words: Stay long enough alive and you can turnaround matches with impossible odds…

1 Like