Discussion regarding the Netherlands and Belgium getting added to France

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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I want to start of by saying that I am happy to see the BeNeLux make an apearance in a huge game like War Thunder. Belgium and the Netherlands have lots of very unique things to offer for the game and I cannot wait to see what the future will hold.
I wanted to say this first since the rest of this thread can be interpreted in a very negative way.

So thanks to the recent update trailer and the latest dev blog news, we now know the BeNeLux is being added in the next update to the French techtree.

I wanted to create a thread regarding this, and get some opinions rolling.
Having worked on the Dutch and BeNeLux fan made techtrees for years now, I feel like I should share my views on the matter and make this post as a discussion thread to see what others think.

My main point is to point out some of the things that bother me when looking at it.

So the vehicles shown to us are as follows:

Netherlands

Belgium

  • Gladiator Mk.I
  • Spitfire FR Mk.XIVe
  • Meteor Mk.8
  • Mirage 5BA
  • F-104G
  • F-16A
  • F-16AM

My first concern is the lack of unique vehicles. We have just one, the Fokker G.1 Mercury. All of the other aircraft shown are foreign models that are already present ingame.

The same has happend with Hungary that was added to Italy. Pretty much all of it has been “copy paste”. And personally I find this very dissapointing and looks rather lazy to me. We already have the Fokker D.21 model in the game (The Finnish variant). The Dutch used the D.21 a lot too, and the ingame D.21 model could have just been edited slightly to turn it into the Dutch variant. So why is the D.21 missing?

Another huge missed oppertunity is the various Belgian Renard fighters. These are very powerfull and cool aircraft, and yet not even a single one is present.

Renard R.36 Version 1
Renard R.36 Version 2
Renard R.37
Renard R.38
Renard R.40

The next point is the odd balance between Dutch and Belgian vehicles. There are three Dutch aircraft, and seven Belgian onces. If the focus is on Belgium, why bother adding the Dutch really? The Dutch aircraft could easily be replaced with Belgian counterparts.

To make it balanced all that has to be done is just have one of the F-16’s be a Dutch one, and also make the F-104G a Dutch one. Now you have a 5 to 5 balance without changing anything really.

Personally I don’t like the Dutch getting added to France at all. There is no historical connection between the Netherlands and France.
The only things I can think of is that the Dutch used the AMX-13-105 and AMX-VCI for some time. (Most crews disliked the AMX-13 because it was to small)

I’m not against adding Belgium to France. That makes sense and Belgian vehicles fit the French style. But the Dutch just don’t fit in. Add on top of that that the Dutch are only getting three aircraft added and Belgium gets seven. At this point just don’t include the Dutch.

The only reason I can think of to add the Dutch is for their Leopard 2 MBT’s for the ground forces, since Belgium has no MBT’s. But last I checked, French players wanted the Leclercs to be buffed, and to add more of them. Not get some copy paste Leopard 2’s.

My final conclusion of what has been shown up till now is that all of this looks very lazy to me. We got one unique aircraft in a techtree where it shouldn’t be, and the rest are all copy pastes.
I think that with only a very minimal ammount of extra work, this sub-tree could have been much better. Ofcourse I am excited what the future will hold for the BeNeLux, and I hope that future updates will focus entirely on unique vehicles.

Here are some polls so people can easily share their opinions on the matter.

What do you think of the Netherlands being added to France?
  • I see no problem.
  • It shouldn’t be added to France.
0 voters
What do you think of Belgium being added to France?
  • I see no problem.
  • It shouldn’t be added to France.
0 voters
Does the lack of unique vehicles bother you?
  • Yes.
  • No.
0 voters
In the grand sheme of things, do you think France should be getting these BeNeLux vehicles?
  • Yes, I think they will be good additions.
  • No, France should get more of their own vehicles added.
0 voters
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I share the sentiment that I am happy to see Belgium and Dutch vehicles in War Thunder.

However I am quite disappointed in the way Gaijin has handled this inclusion. Instead of adding a seperate tech tree like proposed. Slowly building it up, perhaps selling something adjecent as a premium to build up hype and measure it. Eventually in a few years adding a full tech tree that focuses on the experience envisioned in these proposals.

Apparently it’s just delegated to fill in holes for France, which has a ton of vehicles they could have added to them instead. Then what is being added apart from the amazing G.1 and Mirage 5BA is just essentially copies. Now people will think that is all the Benelux is, a bunch of imports to aid France.

Again I’m happy to see representation, I just wish it was in a different situation. I’d rather have waited than to see the current state. Feel like I have wasted a lot of time researching.

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I personally don’t agree with the notion to add the Dutch TT to the German tree. We fought against them during the second world war. I’d like my Fokker G.1 to fight against Germans, not alongside.

I also hope that some of the Belgian vehicles at least have Dutch camo’s available. It feels very skewed, especially when they are adding 2x F-16’s, and both are Belgian?

I am personally not too bothered by the fact that the tree contains copy pasted. Air RB is everyone vs everyone nowadays anyway, so it doesnt change a lot there. I can understand it has more impact on ground RB, but I don’t play that.
I am slightly dissapointed by the lack of new vehicles. I love seeing the G.1, but am very disappointed that that is the only new addition. I know the D.XXI would have been a copy paste too technically, but I had at least expected to see that one?

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Should have been the swiss. Solves the lineups problem and leaves netherland to the germans

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The Benelux should have been added as one nation. I don’t see the Netherlands or Belgium being separated and filling other tech trees.

Being simply added to France as a sub-tech tree is a huge missed opportunity and wasted potential in my honest opinion.

I’m still happy to see those nations represented in the game but the lack of unique vehicles is a real shame sadly.

Spoiler

The past and the future together at Beauvechain Airbase in 1980 (Arch. 1st Wing)

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While I’m super happy to see my nation represented in game, I can’t help but feel disappointed right now.
The implementation feels cheap, not thought through and just generally an attempt to make a quick buck with minimal effort.

Modeling one (1) aircraft and calling it a subtree is just sad honestly. I’m Belgian, but the lack of Dutch aircraft is hard to comprehend for me. The Netherlands carried the BeNeLux air tree with its unique designs, not Belgium. Unfortunately we’re getting all but one of those vehicles.

As you mentioned, at least a dutch F-104 and F-16 would make the balance fair and even and that change wouldn’t even have an impact on the implementation.

I also fear for what this will do for further implementations of aircraft. French domestic designs that are still missing look even less likely than ever to be implemented and all the domestic BeNeLux designs now have to be squished together in a single line.

I really wish Gaijin would reconsider a little bit. I’m a fan of seeing our nations represented, but this is not a fair and equal way to do it. I would really like to see our northern neighbors to get more of the spotlight, something they definitely deserve.

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i believe the Dutch and Belgian vehicles should be added to the game as a separate independent tech tree or have their vehicles added as premium here and there

if this is the long-term plan for Gaijin, I would recommend postponing the release of those vehicles utile they have enough vehicles to add their tech tree

right now, all it adds is the G.1 and 9 copy-paste that France does not need.

France does have a lack of planes for the mid-tier, mostly during the late WW2 period. but so what? it has the essentials already and no tree has to be perfect. there are still 2-3 interesting planes to add there.

France has more than enough vehicles to offer in every tier for the ground tree. it can still have so much to get very crowded on its own—no need to add a few leopards who will be nearly copy-paste to improve it.

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The BeNeLux TT proposals are some of the most solid ones out there, having everything that makes up a powerful tech tree, with very few gaps, if any. I think it’s a big shame that Gaijin didn’t take the opportunity to add it as a new nation, as we haven’t had one since Israel was added close to 5 years ago now. I also the BeNeLux TT would’ve been a unique tech tree, offering very different playstyles and equipment when compared to the nations currently in game.

I also think that there just isn’t that much of a connection between France and the BeNeLux nations. There may be an argument for Belgium, but I think tying it in with the Netherlands and Luxembourg would’ve made a lot more sense. There just isn’t that much of a connection overall between France and those countries to warrant a subtree.

Additionally, I do question whether France even needs a subtree. Like the UK, there is a ton of domestic equipment that is yet to be added, and France doesn’t suffer from the same issue as the UK does with aircraft, as they had a much larger share in the export market, which means more aircraft which can go to them.

As with recent subtrees, we see a huge lack of unique vehicles. This is highly apparent with nations like Finland and Hungary, with the former having many unique modifications of vehicles which were not added to the game. This is effectively just a continuation of Gaijin’s lazy planning. There is no form of sense in the decision making processes they make, and it’s as if some of these decisions are made to either purposefully anger one or multiple groups of players, or even show blatant favouritism in game. This doesn’t really apply to France, but this is something that I and a number of other players have been noticing, both in game and on the forums. What worries me most is that Gaijin will not implement the aircraft that actually make the BeNeLux nations unique and instead focus on adding copy paste vehicles to the French tree, which will likely end up in a similar situation to what Italy, the UK and Sweden are going through with their respective subtrees, where lackluster or copy-paste vehicles get added nonsensically, whilst ignoring blatant and obvious issues with the tech tree. I genuinely don’t expect many of the unique aircraft to ever be added, instead we’ll just have the same old C&P slop get added which will remove some of the uniqueness of the French TT, as devs double down on their new fangled subtree, shunning unique domestic additions in favour of the same old stuff. I’m all for nations getting the vehicles they used, I’ve been advocating for Lend-Lease vehicles for the UK tree for a while, but this is because they bring capabilities which that TT is sorely lacking. Does France really have a lack of aircraft in the ranks filled by these new additions, or is the dev team just being lazy?

Gaijin still doesn’t seem to want to listen to the playerbase, nor does it seem to know how to implement subtrees. The checks they should go through are:

  1. Is the subtree necessary?
  2. Is there a connection between the two nations?
  3. Will the addition of a subtree prevent the addition of domestic vehicles?
  4. Will the subtree actually bring something new to that TT?
  5. Are there domestic vehicles which can be added that can fill the majority of the gaps in the tree?

Such a list would help in the decision making process greatly, and would help separate nations which would make sense as subtrees from those that don’t. Spain (or even Brazil) would’ve been a much better subtree for Italy than Hungary. Finland could’ve been a lot more unique. South Africa was a great addition to the game for the UK, but I feel as if its potential is being held back; the same can only be said for BeNeLux in the French tree. I would argue that if France got a subtree, a Swiss one would have made a lot more sense.

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Yeah, the choice of planes, while being very iconic for both nations, still seems lazy. The good part is exactly the amount of iconic planes we see already (I’ve had many excited people for the spitfire and the meteor in P4n1C from Belgian Flemish players, but a mixed response from our Dutch ones with most of them noting the lack of modern Dutch planes). Of course I hope for many more Belgian props of the Renard series or Dutch Fokker planes (especially the three Fokker D.XXI variants), as that is where the BeNeLux shines the most in my opinion.

The imbalance regarding planes from each nation also seems weird, I agree. But I expect a dutch and Belgian skin for the F-104G anyways. Only the F-16 part bugs me the most of the new tree. (now they would have to add a Dutch F-16 later to add that variant? We’ll see.)

btw, there are multiple threads about this topic:

Luckily this thread is specific enough. :)

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Obligatory “glad to see BeNeLux blah blah blah” but France does NOT need any form of subtree. They need their own countless domestic designs to fill out their ranks before even considering alternate avenues. Honestly makes me scared for China, which also doesn’t need a subtree. I don’t even care that the majority of the vehicles are copypaste but, if you’re going to add copypaste, at least do it from the nation of the tree.

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I find it really saddening what is happening with the Subtrees now, as people have said above, France still has a lot of vehicles left to add and doesn’t suffer from the issues that other trees do, that cant be filled by their own options mind you.

I would have been sorta OK if BeNeLux had been implemented properly but it hasn’t, it had the opportunity to add so many Unique aircraft below Rank IV yet has been left with a SINGLE new model, they had the ability to have an entire tree (albiet minor) in game, more than what Israel has, yet we have been relegated to this C&P version, something that has enitirely killed the hype for the tree altogether, if Subtrees are added it should be the way South Africa has been added (out of all the vehicles only a SINGLE was a C&P of a pre existing model)

additionally, this is a minor point but one I will make nonetheless, for people who play Sim this further makes the entire thing more confusing, especially at Higher BRs, with RWR i no longer know whether the F-16 that is tracking me is from the US, Japan, Italy, China, Israel and now france, this is fine when the aircraft was used by said nation, but now a third of those nations never actually used them under the flag they are represented in game. This makes it even harder in Dogfights as how am I to tell between two F-16s, Two Mig 21s or even Two Meteors apart considering they both look incredibly similar, and even worse with Decals applied.

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There are dozens of unique Dutch designs, from push/pull twin engine fighters to large heavy bombers, yet we are only getting the G1. Don’t get me wrong, the G1 is amazing, but I really expected more.

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China has Taiwan. That’s their sub tree.

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Wrong Taiwan has west Taiwan as subtree

jokes aside the contribution is equally for both

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With the BeNeLux vehicles being added as a sub tree instead of their own tech tree, then i think the best way to add the Dutch vehicles, would have been as a sub tree to German tech tree, where it would have been split, so WW2 and earlier vehicles are in the French tree and then post war vehicles in the German tech tree.

While this would make it so that people had to research two tech trees to get all the Dutch vehicles and would not be able to combine them, in historical context it would be a better addition (outside of the BeNeLux tech tree).

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I’ve heard from a friend that the Fokker G.1 should apparently be able to mount 23 mm cannons?

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Yes, the prototype had them.

There are 3 possible G.1 variants.

  • Fokker G.1 Prototype
    2 x 1 23 mm Madsen autocannons (Forward firing)
    2 x 1 7.7 mm M.36 FN-Browning machine gun (Forward firing)
    1 x 1 7.7 mm M.36 FN-Browning machine gun (Rear gunner)
  • Fokker G.1 (Wasp)
    4 x 1 7.92 mm M.36 FN-Browning machine guns (Forward firing)
    1 x 1 7.7 mm M.20 Lewis machine gun (Rear gunner)
  • Fokker G.1 (Mercury)
    8 x 1 7.92 mm M.36 FN-Browning machine guns (Forward firing)
    1 x 1 7.7 mm M.36 FN-Browning machine gun (Rear gunner)

All of them had different engines.

source: BeNeLux (Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg) Air Forces Techtree

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23 mm Madsen cannons? Any idea what the performance would be like?

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The HE round variant should have almost double the HE filler compared to the 20mm variant (like the early french and swedish 20mm variants).

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Source: https://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/lotdz23-dk/ (pretty good) & Madsen 23 mm gun for american fighter aircrafts | alternatehistory.com (dubious)

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I have suggested all three of the main G.1 variants on this forum if you want to look more into it.

As said by @Thomas_Belgium the Hispano prototype has the 23mm Madsen autocannons

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