4th gens and Fox-3s

WIP, continuous updates coming

Gaijin has stated that they plan to implement modern Fox-3 missiles soon, and that every nation would receive said missiles in the same update. This most likely means these additions will come in 2024’s summer update, usually the biggest one of the year.

I’d like to start a discussion here to ensure that those aircraft are accurately modelled and properly balanced when they arrive.

Here’s what I’d anticipate in terms of Fox-3 equipped aircraft:

USA

1 or 2 aircraft

F-15C MSIP (early), BR ~13.3
F-15C upgraded to carry AMRAAMs. Pretty much guaranteed to come in the first wave of Fox-3 equipped aircraft.
Empty Weight: 13,154 kg
Loaded Weight: 22,000 kg
MTOW: 30,844 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 208.6 kN
Max TWR: 1.61
Max speed at sea level: 1,470km/h (Mach 1.20)
Max speed at altitude (10.6 km): 2,352km/h (Mach 2.20)
Max climb rate: 342 m/s

Armament:
1x M61A1
4x AIM-120A/B
4x AIM-120A/B or AIM-9M-9
Minimal A2G capability

F-16C Block 50/52, BR ~13.0
Potentially just updating the (incorrect) weaponry of the F-16C, but also possibly a new aircraft for progression reasons.
Empty Weight: 9,070 kg
Loaded Weight: 11,374 kg
MTOW: 17,874 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 112.5 kN
Max TWR: 1.64
Max speed at sea level: 1,505 km/h (Mach 1.21)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,170 km/h (Mach 2.04)
Max climb rate: 300 m/s

Armament:
1x M61A1
6x AIM-120A/B or AIM-9M-9
Decent A2G capabilities

Germany

1 aircraft

Typhoon Tranche 1, BR ~13.3
Most likely the headliner for the update. Pretty guaranteed to come as soon as AMRAAMs are introduced.
Empty Weight: 11,000 kg
Loaded Weight: 16,000 kg
MTOW: 23,500 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 180.0 kN
Max TWR: 1.67
Max speed at sea level: 1,530 km/h (Mach 1.25)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 315 m/s

Armament:
1x BK-27
4x AIM-120B
2x AIM-120B or AIM-9L(I)-1
2x AIM-9L(I)-1
Decent A2G capabilities

USSR

1 or 2 aircraft

Su-27SM, BR ~13.3
Su-27S found in game upgraded to carry R-77s. There aren’t a whole lot of alternative aircraft of similar capabilities for the USSR/Russia because of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its effect on military development.
Empty Weight: 16,870 kg
Loaded Weight: 23,700 kg
MTOW: 33,000 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 245.2 kN
Max TWR: 1.52
Max speed at sea level: 1,450 km/h (Mach 1.17)
Max speed at altitude (??): 2,284 km/h (Mach 2.35)
Max climb rate: 330 m/s

Armament:
1x GSh-30-1
4x R-27ER or R-77
2x R-27ER, R-77, R-27ET, or R-73
4x R-73
Decent A2G capabilities

MiG-29SMT, BR ~13.0
MiG-29SMT either updating (inaccurate) weaponry or a new vehicle.
Empty Weight: 11,670 kg
Loaded Weight: 14,018 kg
MTOW: 20,979 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 133.6 kN
Max TWR: 1.90
Max speed at sea level: 1,555 km/h (Mach 1.26)
Max speed at altitude (12.0 km): 2,347 km/h (Mach 2.20)
Max climb rate: 300 m/s

Armament:
1x GSh-30-1
2x R-27ER, R-27ET, R-73, or R-77
4x R-73 or R-77
Decent A2G capabilities

Britain

1 or 2 aircraft

Typhoon F2, BR ~13.3
British designation for Typhoon Tranche 1.
Empty Weight: 11,000 kg
Loaded Weight: 16,000 kg
MTOW: 23,500 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 180.0 kN
Max TWR: 1.67
Max speed at sea level: 1,530 km/h (Mach 1.25)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 315 m/s

Armament:
1x BK-27
4x Active Skyflash or AIM-120B
2x Active Skyflash, AIM-120B, or AIM-9M-9
2x AIM-9M-9
Decent A2G capabilities

JAS-39C, BR ~13.0
There is a very small chance the SAAF JAS-39C will be upgraded to carry AMRAAMs. South Africa has never operated AMRAAMs, but they haven’t operated Skyflashes either. The weaponry would be entirely fictional. With the Typhoon being a certainty, I don’t see this happening.
Empty Weight: 6,865 kg
Loaded Weight: 9,032 kg
MTOW: 13,906 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 73.8 kN
Max TWR: 1.44
Max speed at sea level: 1,225 km/h (Mach 0.99)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 254 m/s

Armament:
1x Akan m/85
4x Active Skyflash (fictional), AIM-120B (fictional), or AIM-9M-9
2x AIM-9M-9
Decent A2G capabilities

Japan

1 aircraft

F-15J MSIP (early), BR ~13.3
F-15J upgraded to carry AMRAAMs.
Empty Weight: 12,973 kg
Loaded Weight: 17,479
MTOW: 30,845 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 211.4 kN
Max TWR: 1.89
Max speed at sea level: 1,450 km/h (Mach 1.20)
Max speed at altitude (??): 2,650 km/h (Mach 2.50)
Max climb rate: 341 m/s

Armament:
1x M61A1
4x AIM-120B
4x AIM-120B or AAM-3
Limited A2G capabilities

China

1 aircraft

J-11A MLU, BR ~13.3
J-11 upgraded to carry R-77s.
Empty Weight: 16,870 kg
Loaded Weight: 23,700 kg
MTOW: 33,000 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 245.2 kN
Max TWR: 1.52
Max speed at sea level: 1,450 km/h (Mach 1.17)
Max speed at altitude (??): 2,284 km/h (Mach 2.35)
Max climb rate: 330 m/s

Armament:
1x GSh-30-1
4x R-27ER1 or R-77
2x R-27ER1, R-77, R-27ET1, or R-73E
4x R-73E
Decent A2G capabilities

Italy

1 or 2 aircraft

Typhoon Tranche 1, BR ~13.3
It’s a Typhoon.
Empty Weight: 11,000 kg
Loaded Weight: 16,000 kg
MTOW: 23,500 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 180.0 kN
Max TWR: 1.67
Max speed at sea level: 1,530 km/h (Mach 1.25)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 315 m/s

Armament:
1x BK-27
4x AIM-120B
2x AIM-120B or AIM-9L(I)-1
2x AIM-9L(I)-1
Decent A2G capabilities

JAS-39C, BR 13.0
There’s a small chance that we might see a Hungarian JAS-39C for Italy. However, Hungary has only ever operated the more modern AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM and only recently began operating IRIS-Ts. So a Hungarian JAS-39C would have fictional armament. With the Typhoon being a certainty, it’s unlikely.
Empty Weight: 6,865 kg
Loaded Weight: 9,032 kg
MTOW: 13,906 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 73.8 kN
Max TWR: 1.44
Max speed at sea level: 1,225 km/h (Mach 0.99)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 254 m/s

Armament:
1x Akan m/85
4x Active Skyflash (fictional), AIM-120B (fictional), or AIM-9M-9
2x AIM-9M-9
Decent A2G capabilities

France

1 aircraft

Rafale M F1, BR ~13.0
First production variant of the French Typhoon spinoff. A naval Rafale of the first level of capabilities.
Empty Weight: 10,196 kg
Loaded Weight: 14,000 kg
MTOW: 19,500 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 150.0 kN
Max TWR: 1.50
Max speed at sea level: 1,400 km/h (Mach 1.13)
Max speed at altitude (??): 2,130 km/h (Mach 1.90)
Max climb rate: 305 m/s

Armament:
1x 30M971B
4x MICA-EM
2x MICA-EM or Magic II
No A2G armament

Sweden

1 aircraft

JAS-39C, BR ~13.0
JAS-39C with AMRAAMs.
Empty Weight: 6,865 kg
Loaded Weight: 9,032 kg
MTOW: 13,906 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 73.8 kN
Max TWR: 1.44
Max speed at sea level: 1,225 km/h (Mach 0.99)
Max speed at altitude (11.0 km): 2,125 km/h (Mach 2.00)
Max climb rate: 254 m/s

Armament:
1x Akan m/85
4x Rb-71A, Rb-99, Rb-74, or Rb-74M (fictional)
2x Rb-74 or Rb-74M (fictional)
Decent A2G capabilities

Israel

1 or 2 aircraft

F-15 Baz Meshupar, BR ~13.3
F-15A Baz upgraded to F-15C MSIP standards.
Empty Weight: 13,154 kg
Loaded Weight: 22,000 kg
MTOW: 30,844 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 208.6 kN
Max TWR: 1.61
Max speed at sea level: 1,470km/h (Mach 1.20)
Max speed at altitude (10.6 km): 2,352km/h (Mach 2.20)
Max climb rate: 342 m/s

Armament:
1x M61A1
4x AIM-120B
4x AIM-120B, AIM-9M-9, or Python 3
Decent A2G capability

F-16C Block 40 Barak II, BR ~13.0
F-16C Barak II with AMRAAMs. Possibly just an updated F-16D Barak II but I’d say that’s unlikely, as the Barak needs all the performance it can get to compete with the American F-16C with the same armaments.
Empty Weight: 8,280 kg
Loaded Weight: 16,057 kg
MTOW: 21,772 kg
Max total thrust (WEP): 107.5 kN
Max TWR: 1.32
Max speed at sea level: ??
Max speed at altitude (12.2 km): 2,145 km/h (Mach 2.02)
Max climb rate: 254 m/s

1x M61A1
6x AIM-120B, Python 3, or AIM-9M-9
Decent A2G capabilities

Other stuff

Missile information

AIM-120A AMRAAM
First variant of the venerable AMRAAM.
Weight: 158 kg
Max speed: Mach 4
Max range (high alt high speed): 70 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): 20 km
ARH range: 16 km
Max overload: 35 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 22 kg

AIM-120B AMRAAM
AIM-120A with upgraded software to improve guidance during inertial portion of flight, extending range in oblique shots and increasing PoK.
Weight: 158 kg
Max speed: Mach 4
Max range (high alt high speed): 70 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): 20 km
ARH range: 16 km
Max overload: 35 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 22 kg

R-77
Russia’s first production Fox-3. Features folding grid-fins that provide good manueverability and easy storage, but extreme drag at transonic speeds.
Weight: 175 kg
Max speed: Mach 4
Max range (high alt high speed): 80 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): 12 km
ARH range: 16 km
Max overload: 40 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 22.5 kg

Active Skyflash
ARH seeker derived from that of the MICA-EM fitted to Skyflash SuperTEMP airframe. Unlike the rest of the Fox-3s listed, doesn’t feature a datalink for mid-course updates. Offered to the RAF and Swedish Air Force, not purchased due to the better performance of the AIM-120B.
Weight: 208.2 kg
Max speed: Mach 4.4
Max range (high alt high speed): 50 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): ??? km
ARH range: 15 km
Max overload: 25 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 11.5 kg

MICA-EM
ARH variant of the MICA missile. This was the first variant of the MICA family and France’s first ARH missile. Its airframe is identical to the MICA-IR and features thrust-vectoring.
Weight: 112 kg
Max speed: Mach 4.5
Max range (high alt high speed): 80 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): 20 km
ARH range: 15 km
Max overload: 50 g TVC (to ~5-7km range), 30 g aero
Warhead mass (TNTe): 12 kg

Rb-71A
Swedish designation for Active Skyflash. Originally intended to use a Swedish seeker, but this was cancelled in favour of the British Thompson-CSF seeker until the whole program was scrapped in favour of the Rb-99.
Weight: 208.2 kg
Max speed: Mach 4.4
Max range (high alt high speed): 50 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): ??? km
ARH range: 15 km
Max overload: 25 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 11.5 kg

Rb-99
Swedish license-produced AIM-120B.
Weight: 158 kg
Max speed: Mach 4
Max range (high alt high speed): 70 km
Max range (0 alt 0 speed): 20 km
ARH range: 16 km
Max overload: 35 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 22 kg

AIM-9M-9
Most modern USAF AIM-9M variant. Features improved software for more effective guidance during suspended tracking. Slight improvement in performance over AIM-9M-6 in-game. At least in US service, all older blocks were upgraded to this standard.
Weight: 84 kg
Max speed: Mach 2.5
Max range: 18 km
Lock range (front/rear): 3/11 km
Max overload: 35 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 9.4 kg
IRCCM: suspended tracking

AIM-9L(I)-1
German license-produced AIM-9L upgraded with IRCCM and smokeless motor to AIM-9M equivalent.
Weight: 86 kg
Max speed: Mach 2.5
Max range: 18 km
Lock range (front/rear): 3/11 km
Max overload: 35 g
Warhead mass (TNTe): 9.4 kg
IRCCM: suspended tracking

Additional notes
  • BRs are for RB.
  • BRs are assuming no decompression. Yes, I agree something like 15.0 or 16.0 would be better, but for the sake of balancing these aircraft against each other an existing vehicles it’s easier to assume no decompression. This still holds true after top BR was moved to 12.7, I had anticipated this.
  • Gaijin will probably add all these aircraft at the same BR. The BRs listed are where I anticipate the vehicles settling after a couple months.
  • Weapons listed can all be carried in combination - the list is a list of pylons and their capabilities more or less.
  • Yes, there are a lot of 3rd gen aircraft or less capable 4th gen aircraft that mount AMRAAMs etc. These will probably come in the following updates, since Gaijin wants everyone to get Fox-3s at the same time and the vehicles listed are the most famous and comparable of the generation. Plus, it’s easier to modify an existing aircraft model than to model a new aircraft family from scratch.
  • If we see earlier models of 4th gen aircraft families that eventually used Fox-3s (F/A-18A, J-10, etc.) there’s a chance upgraded versions with Fox-3 could come in this same update. But that’s extremely speculative at the moment, so I did not include those aircraft.
  • All aircraft listed are capable, at least in theory if not operationally, of using current in-game SARH missiles. With the significant step up in BVR capabilities presented, stock SARH (AIM-7M, Skyflash, R-27R, etc) are going to be a must.
  • There are probably a lot of inaccuracies in this post. Corrections are much appreciated. That’s the point of this post, to get the collective knowledge of the community to ensure balance and accurate modelling.
  • AAM-3 in-game is modelled with suspended tracking like an AIM-9M. IRL it is has dual-spectrum seeker. If properly modelled, all aircraft with AAM-3 would be .3 higher in BR. Unlikely to happen until other nations have more advanced IR missiles in-game as well.
  • Tranche 1 Typhoons were chosen as they have full combat capability. Pre-production models would work as well but there seems to be some disagreement on the combat capabilities of each nation’s developmental airframes. Tranche 2 IMO would be best for introducing the more modern IR missiles discussed in the “ASRAAM, IRIS-T, etc” section alongside the much improved A2G capabilities of the Tranche.
  • I’d suspect 3rd gens with AMRAAMs and R-77s would generally be 12.3 (subsonic) and 12.7 (supersonic) though that’s a discussion for another day.
Helpful Forum posts

McDonnell Douglas F-15C MSIP II Eagle: Better Birds of Prey
Eurofighter Typhoon - Germany's Best Fighter Jet
Sukhoi Su-27SM Flanker-J1: A new Standard for the Masterpiece
Eurofighter Typhoon F.2: The Tranche 1 Tiffy (Part 2)
Mitsubishi F-15J
Shenyang J-11, J-16, J-15, History, Performance & Discussion
Italian Eurofighter Typhoon General Thread
Dassault Rafale - Variants, Characteristics, Armament and Performance
Dassault Rafale M LF.1 - The "Express" Delivered Rafale
SAAF JAS-39C Technical Data and Discussion
McDonnell Douglas F-15C Baz: The Eagle of David
Modern ARH (FOX 3) Missile - History, Performance & Discussion
(WIP) Modern IR (FOX2) Missile - History, Performance & Discussion

ASRAAM, IRIS-T, etc

Originally, this post included a number of 13.7s with more modern IR missiles with thrust vectoring and focal plane arrays or dual-spectrum seekers. However, I then made 2 discoveries.

  1. The R-73M referenced for the Su-27SM was the 2012 R-73M for Su-27SM2s which have access to R-77-1s. The 1999 R-73M never actually entered service.
    This means that the Su-27SM1 only used base R-73 RMD-1s. If that’s the case, then it’s essentially identical to the J-11A MLU and there’s no reason to stretch for a balanced and reasonably realistic missile loadout for the J-11B to match the R-73Ms.
  2. The 100g overload reported on the forums for the IRIS-T is erroneous; multiple sources say 60g.
    That meant that the German and Italian Typhoons were a significant downgrade over their ASRAAM-equipped British counterpart (though still too strong for 13.3) while the JAS-39C was solidly 13.3 material.

So instead of 6/10 nations having 13.7, suddenly only 2/10 did (not ideal). However, if Britain lost the ASRAAM and Israel lost the Python 4 and their aircraft were moved to 13.3, Germany and Italy would be extremely dominant (still 2/10 nations). However, if they then lost IRIS-Ts, only France and Sweden would have advanced, undodgeable, IR missiles (…2/10).
So the simplest and best solution I could see was for no nation to get new IR missiles, at least at first (except the AIM-9L(I), just an AIM-9M). This would provide 8/10 nations with extremely similarly equipped and well-balanced 13.3 aircraft. While unfortunately Sweden and France lack the same capabilities as the other nations, the lower BR of the Rafale and JAS-39C should keep those aircraft relatively competitive.

Changelog

V2.0.0: initial post
V2.1.0: added MiG-29SMT
V2.1.1: clarified weapon options convention
V2.1.2: corrected formatting for SMT
V2.1.3: added information relevant to air top BR being moved to 12.7, rewording
V2.2.0: specified reasoning for Tranche 1 Typhoons specifically, added speculation on BR of 3rd gen aircraft
V2.2.1: removed accidental mentions of AIM-120A on non-American aircraft (oops)
V2.3.0: added Active Skyflash, extra info on missiles

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IRL it can they just never bought the missiles as lack of funds

I doubt we’ll be getting those in summer, more likely December.
Also there’s no need to use early/late with F-15s cause MSIP 1, MSIP 2, and MSIP 2+ all exist as official designations.

We’ll see AMRAAMs on existing platforms & F-4F ICE for a number of months at the least.

I mentioned that, it’d be entirely fictional which is why I don’t see it as likely, especially with the Typhoon being a much more capable alternative, but I still included it as a possibility for discussion’s sake.

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Might as well add the F/A-18C in there. Of all the various versions, that’s probably the earliest Fox 3 slinger that would be added.

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and the SMT

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Typhoon or Rafale wont come 100%. Gripens flight performance even after nerf absolutely slaps russian and US jets. EF2000 or Rafale would be in pre nerf territory of gripen + more AA weapons.
Germany will get F4F ICE.
There is good chance no new planes other than for italy and japan will come.
Britain can get tornado with 120 or gripen. Sweden is gripen. France will get micas for 2000-5, US will be F16C or F15A MSIP as according to gaijin we have 90s ANG version and that could carry amraam. Russia will have R77 on SMT (there is no need for flanker to have 10 missiles and bunch of them fox3 + ER/ET and R73) , Italy will get either hungarian gripen or tornado with amraams. Israel can get amraams on barak. China can get PL12s on J8.
We wont see any jet performance increase with fox3 update, they want to keep BRs compressed as much as possible so they will either give it to current capable planes and add few new withotu performance increase and leave them at 12.3 or move iot to 12.7, no more.
There is chance of getting F/A-18A for US too as its in performance gap of current jets.

Aim-9J on F4F is what? R60M on german 23MF is what? R27ER/ET on german 29 is what?

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I don’t think we’d see the F-18C before the F-18A. As I mentioned, Gaijin is more likely to use existing vehicle families where possible rather than new ones, since it’s just easier to do.
So I didn’t include the F/A-18C or many other comparable vehicles because until we see related aircraft in-game I don’t think it’s likely Gaijin won’t just take the easy route of the vehicles listed.

a pre production EFT would have worse engines and radar and would have similar loadout to the F15

If the Americans get a fox 3 F15 every one should get something similar

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I wouldn’t count out the F/A-18C making an appearance soon. Based off the past implementation of the US line, I’d see the F/A-18A being a Sparrow shooter like all other A models (F-14A, F-15A, F-16A). Gaijin has also added a US naval aircraft in the summer the last few years. I don’t see the F-14D coming anytime soon because its systems would be too good (if actually implemented). Plus, the AN/APG-65 is already in game along with most of the weapons it would carry.

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They would have too. The F-15 would be the Fox 3 slinger option for Japan and Israel for the immediate future.

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a pre production EFT with worse engines would be unarmed, not have radar, rwr or the likes…

it had a pd radar
im not on about the EAP

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Germany needs such an aircraft, otherwise Tranch 1 does not have assault weapons.

The IPA7 is also a pre-production aircraft and was the first Eurofighter fighter to fly in the Tranche-2 standard. It has been used to test a 500-pound sidewalk, a MAW system, and since 2012 also for software testing. At the end of 2013, it was first used to test the compatibility of the Taurus with the Eurofighter, and in 2014 it was first used with the 2 Taurus (KEPD 350). It is also the Eurofighter that was used to test the AMK or the aerodynamic modification kit, which is said to significantly enhance the maneuverability of the Eurofighter and especially the capabilities of the AoA. Unfortunately, no one has yet

image

image

the first EF to fly with an ECR-90 radar was the DA5.

DA 1 and DA 2 were both for flight control testing, nothing more.
DA 1 had carried dummy IRIS-T missiles(after getting the EJ 200) and never got a radar, rwr, irst, mws, or countermeasures.

if you do have sources stating that it did carry them i’d really like to see them

did you not read the post i sent

All Pre production Eurofighters carried ECR-90 Radar at some point in their life and ALL took part in weapons trials DA.1 performed IRIS-T trials much later in life under the flag of Spain (iirc) whilst the DA.2 took part in ASRAAM trials and flight performance trials

DA.2 also frequently carried AIM-9Ls and tested with them also

Spoiler

image

DA.2s first flight, note the AIM-9Ls on the wingtips

image

DA.2 taxiing at RAF Marham, again note AIM-9Ls on the wings

DA.2 with AIM-9Ls and AMRAAMs

I wouldn’t be particularly concerned about ground attack capabilities, since ground BRs only go to 11.7 anyways. Precision munitions are not exactly the most useful in ARB.
I used Tranche 1 so that Tranche 2 can be introduced as the first model with IRIS-T.