The purpose of this thread is give the devs a short and compact feedback about certain design flaws on specific maps at specfic BRs within Air RB. If you want to discuss Ground RB maps, please create your own thread.
We had a similar (and pinned) thread in the old forum - but within the new forum gaijin seeks to minimize pinned threads, so if this thread gets popular (meaning input and likes) i was told that they might consider this thread to be pinned too.
A hell of maps have basic design flaws, but they were discussed mostly within other threads - as there is no consolidation. In addition some highly experienced players abuse these flaws, whilst the overwhelming majority has no clue about them.
To give a clear example:
If you read this post, combined with this and this post, you might agree that map design flaws leading to inevitable ticket wins/defeats are highly destructive for player motivation and commitment.
I mean if you can win a match with doing nothing (0 score) as you know that ai will win for you there is no point to keep such a map in rotation.
Feedback:
Feedback in its best form is short & structured, therefore it would be great if all posts would follow a certain pattern:
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site 2. BR at which this design flaw pops up 3. Short description of the design flaw 4. Recommended solution
Example (and first entry):
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Kamchatka
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 - 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Map has only 5.400 tickets (standard maps have 7.600 tickets) - in full 16 vs 16 matches the matches end often way too quick by tickets whilst you are in the middle of a dogfight.
4. Recommended solution
Add 22 ground units to bring the ticket count to 7.600 like on most other maps.
Some housekeeping:
3rd party readers which share the view on the mentioned design flaw are asked to like the respective post. People which have a deviating opinion might create an own entry instead of starting individual discussions - we have simply enough of them.
Have in mind that discussions about the design flaw will not help anybody - as they will just distract from the flaw itself and a convoluted feedback thread helps nobody - just look at official feedback threads, most of them are filled with more or less useless discussions.
From my perspective CMs and Forum mods try their best to support players if feedback is provided constructive and addressed in a civil manner - so it in case you care about the game - stay polite.
The CMs and Forum mods might bundle our feedback to the devs if enough people participate - either with likes or own entries. Have in mind that the forum is full with threads and posts discussing certain maps, impact of ai “activities” or just basic design flaws - for ages without any chance for a compact feedback addressed to the devs.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Front Line] Kuban
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
3.7 - 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
AI planes are not equally balanced.
Both teams have ai planes supporting them. The team with the airfield located near Abinskoye gets ai Il2s, the team with the airfield near Krymskaya gets ai Hs 129s.
The flaw is that the Il-2s spawn early game, whilst the Hs 129 spawn late game. So the Il-2 kill tickets early vs a full enemy team, whilst the Hs 129s kills tickets late game when just a few enemy players are alive.
That means that the Hs 129s have a higher impact as they face less opponents and they are so effective that you can win by stalling the match untill they arrive. I explained this in detail in this post.
4. Recommended solution
Ensure that both ai plane formations appear at the same time.
Edit (23/11/24):
This design bug is extremely annoying for both sides. I mean there is nothing you can do if you face a determined pilot willing to use this ai imbalance to his advantage.
Current example of how the Hs 129s wins for you even in hopless matches
I used this today to get a technically seen totally undeserved win (see replay link). Even if you argue that knowing your maps and specific game mechanics is a skill - this win was dirty and undeserved.
On every other map i would have landed and left the match in a 1 vs 6 after roughly 10 minutes - the enemy team was clear better than my rookie team and i had no realistic chance to turn my massive ticket deficit into a win.
But here i knew that all i have to do is to survive for 10-13 minutes allowing my friendly Hs 129 to wipe out their tickets.
I climbed to 10 km, blocked enemy blind hunt orders and became unkillable - i even lost connection, was forced to close and relauch wt and was almost 2 minutes offline, but the 3 chasing fighters were unable to catch me.
The only way to avoid my win was to kill around 25 ground units in 14 minutes - no problem with six US fighters in this time span - but they decided trying to find & kill me as last player as their massive ticket advantage gave them the illusion that the don’t need to ground pound.
They did not even react to the sharp ticket drop until it was too late - my ai planes killed 3.500 tickets in roughly 10 minutes.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Battle for the Rhine
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7-4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Tickets are too low compared to most other maps.
This is an old (but revised) map. Instead of having 7.600 tickets this map has only 5.400. This leads to very fast matches if both teams managed to kill all enemy bases (= ~1200 tickets gone) and when ai planes on both sides kill enemy ground units.
From my pov 85-90% of matches end with ticket wins or defeats in less than 10 minutes, even if a substantial number of players are still alive. Usually the matches end whilst you are in the middle of a dogfight…
4. Recommended solution
Add 20 more ground units for both teams and set the spawn point of ai planes a few kilometers away from the current location so that they need longer to the battlefield.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Front Line] Kursk
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 - 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Ground ai kills each other too fast.
Team A has tank columns trying to break through fortified positions of Team B. Even without player interactions the ai tanks and pillboxes kills each other way too fast. If you watch this replay you will see that the team with tanks has an advantage, as they manage to kill enemy arty and pillboxes way faster than the tanks die. I won 1 vs 6 due to this. To be fair, the decisive reason why i won was that my team killed all 3 non-respawning bases (=mission objective) - and the enemy team none. The resulting ticket lead was large enough to compensate the 20+ ground kills of the enemy team. The ticket advantage was large enough that my ai tanks killed the enemy ticket after ~ 16 minutes.
4. Recommended solution
Place the tank columns 2-4 kilometers back so that they can’t end the match without PvP action.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Poland
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 to 5.0
3. Short description of the design flaw
Unbalanced airfield aaa (af aaa) - one is functional, the other not
Poland is an old but revised 3 bases map with just one airfield for each team.
Every experienced prop player knows that on this map the af aaa on one side is useless (=meaning you can turnfight above the enemy af at any altitude) and the af aaa on the other side is functional, but not up to 4 km as usual, somehow on this map u get unharmed if you stay above 3.300-3.500 meters.
So team A can easily repair & rearm, the other not. A hell of players are not aware of this and become easy kills whilst landing - as experienced players know this and are able to exploit this.
4. Recommended solution
Align af aaa effectiveness on both airfields - so that we have either both af aaa useless or both functional - just to have the same level of protection.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] New Guinea
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 - 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Ground targets (no bases on this map) not marked like on (almost) every other map.
On this rather rare Pacific map (setup always JP vs US/UK) ticket bearing ground ai units are not marked on the map. They appear on the minimap only if players get below 2.000 - 2.500 meters. Due to missing bases US/UK bombers (unaware of the ground units) either try to attack Japanese carriers - or they simply jump out.
Japanese bombers usually dive and attack visible ground units (3 destroyers) which have zero ticket value - just because they are unaware of the hell of ground units (pillboxes, arty, light tanks).
I wrote a “map guide” here.
4. Recommended solution
Make at least pillboxes (for JP players) and medium tanks (for US/UK players) visible in order to support players unaware of the “hidden” ground targets.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Front Line] Korsun
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 - 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Unbalanced as just one team gets support by ai planes (Il-2s).
On this very old map just on team has ai planes attacking ground units. Unmolested the damage they inflict is decisive in tight matches. On top of that: Killing those ai planes has zero ticket value - in order to see a ticket impact you have to kill 60-80% of them.
4. Recommended solution
Either delete the ai Il-2s or give the other team also ai planes to create a fair balanced setup.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Kamtschatka
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 to 4.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
Bomber spawn for team spawning on the north is way too far in the back.
Bomber spawns are on almost all other maps always in front of own interceptors but close to the own main airfield. On this map the bomber spawn for the team spawning in the north is ~ 11 km behind the main airfield - and behind own interceptors.
Whilst the idea of spawning behind (but above) own interceptors is rather interesting it makes no sense to limit this for one team only.
Results from my pov:
Slow and bad climbing bombers like Bv 238s or Sterlings run either in no enemy interceptors (as those were neutralized by own ICs) or against the full enemy team way before they can drop - just because it takes too long to close the distance - and airfield spawn fighters are able to intercept them.
The chances for players of B-25s or Do 217s to get to a base decrease as their speed run approaches (=fast in, fast out) relies highly on the distance to the bomb target.
4. Recommended solution
Align bomber spawns for both teams to balance the odds. Preferred: Like everywhere else…
Poland also has a ridiculously broken ticket bleed, which, when combined with the forward air spawn of high speed attack aircraft at these BRs (Wyvern, Do-335, Me-410) they can end the match before the red v blue merge.
Even if the match doesn’t end, there is no way to prevent the waterfall effect on tickets caused by the initial wave of attackers who can not be intercepted by aircraft taking off from their airfield.
My entry, I’m reviving this thread because I had something incredibly frustrating and confusing happened
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Zhengzhou
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
1.7-7.3, but I am unsure if the flaw is present throughout that, since I was playing 4.3.
3. Short description of the design flaw
My team lost despite having 2 players left due to unstoppable ticket bleed after failing an objective. There were a couple P-47s and Wyverns groundpounding, but they were not affecting ticket bleed more than normal until around 11ish minutes into the battle, where my team started to lose all tickets after getting an “objective failed” message.
I noticed some people on the old forums mentioning something related to a large amount of ground targets, and an easy win for one side.
4. Recommended solution
Removing the automatic loss from failing an objective would be a good start. I have no idea what else should be done, since I need to look into that map more.
I watched your replay. The failed mission objective was to cover own tanks which are supposed to attack enemy pillboxes.
Feedback - in order to keep the thread clean behind a spoiler:
The enemy Wyvern (3 air and 20+ ground kills) killed almost the whole northern column, whilst the enemy P-47 (~17 ground kills) killed a lot of the southern column. The enemy’s ai planes killed the small middle column and enemy tanks left in the southern column. As soon as there were just a few own tanks left (2-4) you had no chance to fulfill the objectives.
You see a similar effect when your team manages to kill 3 columns attacking A, B and C point on the Stalingrad map. As soon as those columns are killed they can’t fulfill their objectives (capturing A-C point) and the mission is (almost) lost. But i do agree that the drop came extremely sudden and the complete killing of your whole ticket bar due to this needs to stop. Gaijin has to rethink & adjust or delete this objective.
Your own groundpounders killed totally irrelevant arty and aaa whilst the actual ticket relevant pillboxes remained (almost) untouched. And (ofc) the enemy team killed the majority of ai planes fast enough…
Basic rule on old maps (the old 3x6 vehicle spawn is still active on this map) is to protect own tanks and pillboxes whilst killing enemy ai planes (if implemented) asap.
Not sure if my experience on Kuban was due to AI planes, but we had about 3-fold ticket advantage at about 4mins before end of game (Russian & Japanese team, Eastern side of map, 3.7 - 4.x BR). Enemy team had one plane. He was NOT groundpounding. Before the 4 minutes was up, our entire AI force had been wiped out.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Operation] Tunisia
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7-6.7
Unsure if Tunisia appears in BR’s below 3.7
3. Short description of the design flaw
The map’s asymmetry in ground targets mainly top-side(Team A) being easy-to-pierce light pillboxes and bottom side(Team B) being tanks create an unbalanced match flow where Team B can easily end the game.
It also seems to me that the destruction of any enemy side’s AI attackers do not accomplish the objectives related to them and their destruction do not bleed any tickets. Furthermore, the attackers from Team A aren’t able to pierce the tanks Team B has, and the AAA trucks scattered along the tanks from Team B also do not bleed any tickets when destroyed.
The map is also small for reliable positioning whatsoever.
4. Recommended solution
For the size of the map, increasing the distance can fix the small nature of the map.
For the asymmetric ground-targets, I recommend either mirroring each side’s ground target, or adding more targets that are able to bleed the tickets.
1. Name of the map like mentioned on the official replay site
[Air Battle] Moscow 1941
2. BR at which this design flaw pops up
BR 3.7 - 7.0
3. Short description of the design flaw
Different ticket concept / bomber spawn too low / bases too close to af aaa
The map has a totally different ticket bleed set-up like all other maps i have played at prop BRs - the ticket bleed is connected to player kills, ticket reduction via base kills is severely reduced and for anything except medium ai tanks and small pill boxes non-existent.
In addition the standard bomber spawn altitude (3.500 for medium / light and 4.500 for strategic bombers) is for both classes 400 meters too low on this map. This affects the survival probabilities even more - getting through to a base is already hard enough - on large maps like this it becomes (almost) impossible.
Last but not least: The distances between the airfields (3 airfields for each team) with 10 km are to small (=creating just 6 km uncovered space between them) whilst the enemy bases are too close to those 3 airfields - this increases the af aaa threat and prevents low alt runs parallel to these 3 bases.
What this means in matches:
Whilst watching the replay of a very tight match i realized that each player kill reduces the enemy tickets by 100 tickets. In addition i noticed that killing a base reduced enemy tickets just by 87 tickets and killing of ai aaa or ai arty had zero ticket impact. In total contrast to this: Every kill of an ai tank or light pillbox kills 100 enemy tickets. - i watched other replay from this map today.
In other words: Tickets work completely different than on all other maps regarding ticket bleed for player kills whilst the missing ticket impact for ai ground kills like aaa or arty is similar to other (old, but revised) maps.
From my pov this map is not really flawed (except the low ticket impact for base kills and too low bomber spawns) but it enforces to play different - technically seen the map strengthens the role of strike aircraft if they focus on their intended roles instead of wasting their potential with base kills.
A really positive thing is the total absence of ai planes - this allows low alt runs for players as the getting spotted (marker triggering) notification for the whole enemy team by ai planes is absent.
4. Recommended solution
Dev review of this map If the ticket bleed concept is actually intended and discussing this concept with players. Adjusting the bomber spawn altitudes to standard levels (= plus 400 meters for each class) and relocate bases so that base aaa is no threat.
Evidence (hidden behind spoiler as just for explanatory reasons):
I played this map and won 1 vs 2 by a mix of plain luck and thx to the special conditions on the map. Replay link:
I realized after spawning the too low altitude and side climbed. This strategy ensured the later ticket win as i ran by accident into an enemy B-25 (who somehow made it through the battle in the center map) and managed to kill him before he could drop and kill a base. I killed 100 enemy tickets for the kill and “saved” 87 tickets for my team as our base was not destroyed.
Unfortunately my 20 mm guns jammed in this process (not visible in the replay) but i decided not to repair and finish their left base with one 60 kg bomb and kill the other base with 9 x 60 kg. I ran (ofc) in an enemy P-47 D-28 which would have been an easy kill with functioning 20mms - but i decided to finish just the left base and drag him below my 2 remaining friendlies.
Unfortunately my friendlies (i am chat banned) ran below both remaining enemies without trying to reduce their disadvantage and got locked in a fight vs them. As both enemies went low i turned around and killed their second base.
My 2 friendlies died within this process but i had a ticket lead of 74 points (1.500 vs 1.426). The ticket lead was a result of 2 base kills (= 2 x 87 = 174) minus 100 tickets because they killed 1 enemy more than my team.
I managed to survive the remaining 8 - 10 minutes and won because their P-51 was not able to kill a single pillbox and the P-47 pilot was unable to catch me in time because he was too sure that he would be able to kill me (lmao).
In case somebody is able to read their texts in the chat (Russian?) pls let me know what they discussed (PM). Thx!