I would be pretty happy if that Yak-3 just simply quit. He could have scored a kill vs T18B before I’d be able to kill him most likely. He had an idea how to dodge, Yak-3 is mind-numbingly good at reversals and (till the next patch) it can take a huge beating thx to M-geschoss 0.4 mm fuse and MG131 0.3mm fuse not working vs Yak-3 aircraft skin (a bug that’s few years old BTW).
But no, better to fly circles around AF and lose on tickets (ground pounding is so engaging :)).
(till the next patch)
What is this supposed to refer to?
Also yeah, I’d rather have people who want to AF camp just quit and J out. Instead they camp AF wasting time for the inevitable to happen.
For context, this guy spent 5-6 minutes AF camping just to die like this. He would’ve been better off just landing and J’ing out.
4 Likes
Next patch fixes M-geschoss fuse sensitivity. I’m not sure about Breda and MG131, though
Imho you miss a few things in your retrospective.
- Your post (with the replay) replies to a guy using af aaa by himself, i watched some replays a year ago (?) when he flew in a squad and got caught low with a bunch of squadded 190s - dragging the enemy team into the aaa of his forward af, either just a coincidence or on purpose, idc.
- This guy was referring to weaker plane classes, whilst here imho on of the best 4.3 fighters camped vs a rather weak Fw 190. Even if you are obviously the far better pilot - a good flown Yak-3 leaves you very few options outside high speed passes.
- Even it was a classic example of braindead / useless camping - u had a also a French bomber at 8 km. So in any case the game would have lasted long as you had the combo af aaa and spaceclimbing in one match.
- Next time on this map - relax if you come from this side of the map. You were never in serious danger to lose by tickets. This is the revised version of the old Krimskaya (?) map with deviating time slots for ai plane spawn. That’s why you were behind tickets mid/late game.
- The late spawning ai Hs 129s won the match for you, they come late (~16-17 minutes) but have zero problem to kill 1.500 tickets in less than 2 minutes. And in order to reduce enemy tickets you have to kill 60-80% of them - in deviation to other maps killing a single ai planes has zero ticket impact. My bug report regarding the old map was never processed - with the chang of the map into a “Frontline” map they transferred the old imbalance into the new version of the map. Come to your own conclusions.
- In other words you might have lost the match if you had spawned in on the other side of the map. If you go low you to kill the Hs 129s then you get jumped, if you stay high you lose if your enemy is running.
- The translation of your replay comes from a user flooding the forum with vids clubbing rookies whilst flying meta planes - imho ok if you see this game as a shooter, but your plane choices show a passion for skilled game play instead of relying on superior performance - totally different.
3 Likes
Well, if I win a dogfight in F8, sure as hell it’s not because of turn rate, lol.
Generally, I see a common theme among AF camping players. It’s not them camping. They are “being camped”. As you are probably aware, properly climbing Wyvern at 4.0 is basically untouchable early game and a huge danger to the enemy team.
Yet I’ve met a Wyvern guy camping his AF (maybe even posted a replay here) for several minutes straight and accusing us of “camping him”. Because he was getting chased down after dropping his bombs, so he hid in the safety of his AF.
It was, by his logic, not his fault he was camping, it was me (and my teammates) who were being unfair.
How were we unfair? We got into position that allowed us to kill him. He claimed he was “being camped” from almost the beginning, because at first he was being chased by Yak-3.
What was his “solution”? Just let me bomb.
So to such players a fair situation is a situation where they are untouchable or at least have an advantage (head on vs Wyvern is suicide and generally Wyvern can just clown on Fw 190 in a descending spiral thx to airbrakes and excellent high speed control + high velocity guns, extremely hard to escape such predicament against a player who can kinda aim, kinda because you have 300 RPG so you can keep blasting for like 25s straight).
A situation where they make bad choice and end up in a theoretically deadly situation, because they chose to bomb at low alt, early game, instead of climbing, is unfair to them by default and it means they DESERVE to be protected .
I don’t think people “deserve” to be protected or they “deserve” a way out of every bad situation. This is like a racing game. If you try to race Porsche 911, you don’t deserve to win while driving a 1l, 3-cylinder eco-something something 2t SUV designed to look kinda offroadish, appeal to 30-40yo women and handle like absolute hot garbage. Some difficulties can’t be overcome unless the other driver is blind, drunk, a toddler or all 3 at once. And same applies to WT, yet here people somehow expect to not only have a “fighting chance”, they expect to be able to engage with ability to avoid the damage and choose their encounters.
3 Likes
Agreed, as with most of reply.
It simply depends on expectations and individual goals whilst playing a game, expecting “fairness” and “balance” from a game designed to create the opposite in order to earn money with selling stuff like Wyverns, etc is far away from being realistic.
It makes no sense to discuss things if expectations and individual goals are not compatible. So if a guy like in your example wants to bomb / play PvE he had another view on things than you. Rejecting his view is comprehensible, but imho every attempt to change the pov of random strangers in a video game is futile.
We have some common opinions and some deviating povs - but this does not mean that we can’t talk civilized like proven here.
Unfortunately this forum (like society in general) became a “yes” or “no” battle ground regarding opinions - you rarely see a neutral and sober view on things (so a “balanced” view) and almost every debate escalates very quickly into a ugly insult orgy.
If you want to see a perfect example of an such an insult orgy (dealing with basically the same topic) just check out this thread:
Basically a waste of time for all participants as almost nobody was interested in a proper discussion…i mean we talk about a war game and not about a game where unicorns trying have good day, but come to your own conclusions…
I mean the thread was about specifically about AF camping which is degenerate from every perspective.
I have disagreements with many of the people who took my side on that thread, because I think that bomber players do have a right to be part of the game mode. I just want the gamemode to be better suited for bomber play, and it just isn’t rn.
Right now, bomber players fly in, drop their payload, and then they can either start climbing to space (waste everyone’s time), return to airfield and just camp it (waste everyone’s time) or try to land and go for a second bombing run which means them at an overwhelming disadvantage.
The incentive structure that Gaijin has set up is terrible. Bomber players only really have the choice to either waste everyone’s time or put themselves in disadvantageous positions.
This creates an unfortunate situation where the only people who actually consistently play bombers are the ones who are okay with wasting everyone’s time. This creates a reaction from non-bombers that make them well… hate them.
Non-bombers begin to hate Bombers for the time wasting, bombers begin to hate non-bombers for calling them out on the strat + getting fed up with them and hunting them down (as I’ve been doing).
As a result, the community begins to divide and hate each other, when in reality the problem is Gaijin’s unwillingness to implement a healthier gamemode.
If we get rid of AF camping, then bomber players will have honest cause to demand better conditions, and the community can present a united front to Gaijin. But if AF camping continues, then Gaijin just pits us against one another.
2 Likes
Not sure why this is supposed to matter. The videos perfectly illustrate the various points I made. If posting clips with meta planes is an issue or something, here’s another example of someone wasting time by playing AF NASCAR.
The original point of the replay was in regards to AF which is why I focused on it in the “translation” .
a good flown Yak-3 leaves you very few options outside high speed passes.
True but that’s not the case here since the Yak-3 pilot lost position and decided to AF camp against 1 person. IMO, the current strength of AF AA incentivizes this kind of behavior and does make it really annoying for other players.
To be honest, you can’t even really balance bombers currently. They could be super OP (ending games in a matter of minutes) or currently useless. This reminds me of when the Me 264 was first released and I squaded with 2 other guys. We were consistently ending games unopposed from enemy players because no one could touch us. Tu-4s were also OP years ago with basically aimbot gunners and an insane payload. The whole gamemode would have to change (not just fixing AF AA) to make attackers/bombers actually viable.
3 Likes
;)
Let me say this, so dev possibly hear this so there is positive feedback
I love the fact that forward AF lost AA
Keep it this way, Good Job, since that change i can’t recall seeing AF camper
Really Good Job, applause for gajin, good job devs, no forward af aa, best change alongside fixed economy.
4 Likes
It’s the only reason why I tolerate props.
killing someone who dived for base is a chef’s kiss.
2 Likes
that this thread is even alive and still full of airfield campers, actually baffles me
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A skill issue on the part of the Wyvern. If he ain’t playing like a fighter he ain’t doing it right.
With the possible exception of the Bombers (mainly British ones) armed with 7.7s, ehhhhh…
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This seems very reasonable. 30 seconds I think is a bit short though, especially when repairing critical damage or rearming, I’ve seen 2-3 minute repair times on the AF before. That’s pretty rare though. But I do think loitering at the AF for 2-3 minutes should eject the player from the game, or count as no active players left on enemy team.
If I’ve run out of ammo because I’ve shot down 4 planes already or otherwise expended all your ammo, you absolutely SHOULD have somewhere safe to land to rearm so you can get back to playing PvP.
Waiting till players have to land and then killing them while they’re immobile on the runway isn’t really PvP at all.
And fyi, it’s not just a PvP game, there are attackers and bombers who are all PvE/PvP… Just because you want to be playing PvP, doesn’t mean everyone else is obliged to.
1 Like
I don’t understand this obsession/entitlement with having a 3-4 km death bubble around airfields. I got AF strafed just yesterday, because I was out of fuel (long match) and a Mirage F1 launched a S530F at me while I was landing. I didn’t deserve a death bubble around my AF and no one else does either.
That’s exactly what PvP is, player vs. player. It’s your fault if you end up having to land and get AF strafed.
1 Like
Imho you mix here some things up.
And i still have zero clue why you think 3-400 matches in Air RB gives you the necessary insight in Air RB, or the ability to assess other plane classes if you still refuse to see the whole picture.
And actually - your problem in your town thread (getting outplayed by a PBJ) and referring to bombers is distracting:
The main problem are camping fighters.
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If you pretend to strengthen bomber game play - fly one. If you haven’t flown a single bomber sortie, it looks like a blind man is talking about colors…
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I appreciate your way more modest tone in your reply than in your own thread, but addressing critics vs af aaa in this thread requires no courage, skill or actual knowhow - just follow the rather hostile tone and you get appreciation.
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I wrote in your own thread that i see no additional value for me to continue dealing with your claims, but as you replied to me i take the chance to give some feedback.
A) Regarding bombers:
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There is no problem with af aaa related to bomber game play.
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If a bomber manages to drop and rtb, fine. The af aaa protects him when landing, but as soon he has repaired/rearmed and decides to leave the bubble - he is dead.
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So it is his own decision to leave the bubble or not. If he managed to play the game by creating a decisive ticket advantage after 14 minutes like in your case, he is not forced to leave his protection - the pressure is always on the guy with the weaker ticket count.
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The majority of players requesting buffs for bombers are playing them to grind and not due to sentimental reasons or because they are passionate pilots. They simply refuse to accept the reality that gaijin degraded bomber game play to a cheap and low entry level grinding tool - the changes in May 2020 (respawning bases) killed classic bomber game play.
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And the majority of guys asking for bomber nerfs and a removal of af aaa are pure fighter mains - seeing the game how it is - a plain shooter - and are usually leveraging their experience advantage with meta planes.
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So it is logical that everything what neutralizes those advantages is bad.
No real fighter player goes for bombers first as they are usually no threat for the outcome of a match, but if they are going low to farm other fighters they have to accept the risk that a bomber with very good high alt performance and dangerous defensive gunners might be a pain to kill. And then they cry about space climbing bombers… -
And the main factors for killing bomber game play were not Tu-4s/B-29s or Me 264s (at BR 3.7 those days) - the insane payload of F-4 phantoms (March 2020) allowed them to end matches even quicker. If you realize that they earn money with top tier jets - they saw their chance to transform Air RB in a zero skill grinding tool - that’s why we had (still have?) these bot script players.
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Subsequently they stopped their unsuccessful attempts to balance prop bombers, nerfed them to death and increased their BRs far away from being comprehensible. B-29s at 7.3 is insane. Another reason for bomber nerfs were just braindead rookie fighters getting killed as they saw (and still see) “ass sniffing/tailchasing” of bombers as a very smart tactic.
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The more people joined Air RB to grind, the more the average skill level dropped. Basically a circle of PvE players grinding with useless tasks of base bombing accompanied by PvP players farming those PvE players.
AA) Regarding camping fighters:
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The “real” annoyance comes from fighters using af aaa to reset the fight. Even if your own thread escalated regarding fighters vs bombers, the main issue of af aaa camping is that it allows infinite resets of fights by highly capable fighters or stuff like Wyverns.
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It is actually extremely disappointing if you managed to crit/damage a far superior aircraft just to see them escaping into the protection of af aaa - killing you instantly in most props.
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But it is even more disappointing if this superior aircraft can use the “bubble of doom” to reverse the fight by using his superior power to get the upper hand. I mean depending on your own plane you are forced to stay there and to keep an eye on him - so that he is unable to gain altitude/energy advantage. And this is just in a pure 1 vs 1.
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If you see the last posts regarding a Yak-3 af aaa camping - this is the usual case. I came out of a match (replay link) seeing a Yak-1B af aaa camping after 6-8 minutes (as last guy alive) - and firing his first shots in the whole match in full committed headon after 19 minutes, imho a new record. In this process 3 of my teammates died to af aaa. And ofc he died in another headon after 23 minutes.
C) Af aaa is altering the outcome - yes and no…
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The reality is that i saw a hell of matches completely reversed if your own team is unable or unwilling to keep the “high ground”. Even if you control the fight (like 5 vs 3 with altitude advantage) all of a sudden half of your team decides to ground pound and the other half dies in braindead/unnecessary headons or assumes that af aaa has a day off.
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The individual perception of af aaa varies, is dependent on BRs (props vs jets) and has to be seen in a broader context. And everybody might agree that pointless camping (so in a ticket disadvantage without any realistic chance to win) is a waste of time for everybody. A small change in game mechanics could easily avoid this, so if the camper has objectively no realistic chance to win, a 3 minute timer making af aaa useless would make malicious camping useless.
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But in cases when your (dead by now) team managed to create a significant ticket lead as they sacrificed their positioning in A2A combat in favour of playing PvE; either driven by tasks (kill x ground units), other goals whilst playing Air RB or in this match (grind/spading a new plane)- there is nothing wrong with using an advantage the game offers.
It is a team game, and if you manage to stay alive your team wins and get more rewards. The guys farming landing / repairing / rearming enemies on their airfield in jet BRs always claim “if your team fails to provide air cover when you are landing it’s your fault, it’s a team game” have to be consistent.
D) Community
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I see no real “community” or even “team play” - almost everybody follow his own agenda - in a match and ofc in this forum. Diverting opinions about certain aspects of game mechanics are usually rooted in other goals whilst playing the game. I explained this here.
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For me it is still unclear if we discuss a “1st World problem” or a “real” issue for a hell of players. I asked the OP to add a poll including several questions to get a better picture. No response so far.
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The fellow players asking for a removal of af aaa are seeing this from a pure shooter perspective. And this is imho comprehensible as wt is a plain shooter. I encourage them to ask for an additional game mode “fighters vs fighters only” with a skill based MM to eliminate the option to farm rookies / tankers playing PvE in weaker plane classes with fighters. / meta planes - outside these parameters it is just selfish to ask for that.
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That’s also why i take nobody seriously if he flies primarily meta planes, the average experience advantage vs the average opponent is way too large if you have >15-25 days fighter experience; it is good for racking up kills, but rather bad for having a challenge.
We have some fighter pilots in Air RB (just look at the stats of the 109 G-6 in this replay) with amazing statistics like 30:1 k/d in the USSR 190 D-9, but if you looks close enough stat padders play more than often in squads, that’s the main reason why they have WRs in the high 80ties / low 90ties. -
This thread is equally effective as the famous CAS / TO (“Tank Only mode”) / ODL (One Death Leavers) discussions of the fellow tank players. A few guys rant about wasting time, skill issues, etc. They simply refuse to accept realities.
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In this debate (and the whole forum) just a few guys admit that they play wt just for the sake of kills. This is absolutely fine because wt is a shooter, and shooters are measured by K/D and nothing else.
But the overwhelming majority of posters is hiding behind the usual stuff to get rid off prop af aaa:
- “But, but it’s a PvP game…”
- “Without af aaa the game play would be better”
- “I want to improve the game”
- “Take more fuel”
- “Don’t waste you ammo”
- “Don’t fly PvE planes in a PvP mode”
- “It’s a team game, etc…”
So at the end most of them are just plain hypocrites pretending to have other goals than to allow them easier kills - that’s all.
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Again, wt is a plain shooter, there is nothing wrong to think like that, but pretending to be “White Knights” being on a crusade for a better game play is extremely annoying…
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As long as the majority does not see that af aaa is just a game mechanic like everything else, rants against af aaa are pointless. Almost every pilot driven by the shooter character of wt flies fighters, in a mode dominated by PvE players (=rather easy kills) and uses other game mechanics like fighters with air spawn, playing as a squad, usage of mouse aim in air rb and fying meta planes - those are all direct or indirect game mechanics.
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The main difference of a power-up in a shooter and af aaa in wt is its defensive character and only a few guys are able to utilize it. A few guys know it (just look at post #290, #300 & #306) but the overwhelming majority is actually incapable of using it. Hence, we have so many example of useless camping (post #671, #675, etc.).
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There are whole squads which are using af aaa as integral part of their game play, almost everybody here met them over the years. A few solo players even brag with their K/Ds on yt (post #282) and this is the main issue: Players use af aaa without any chance to win, extend game time and farm impatient players.
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As long as af aaa in prop BRs is like it is, everybody can argue af aaa is bad or good - imho the removal of af aaa on forward afs was a great relief - but without af aaa you are forced to play a meta fighter or you are screwed. So as long as we have af aaa “bloodthirsty” fighter mains can continue slaughtering rookies in Air RB in weaker plane classes.
Finally:
An example from me using af aaa - i saw that my 2 remaining enemies were not smart enough to understand game mechanics. If one would have gone low to stopped their ticket drain i would have killed the other one and the lower guy later. And if i had no af aaa as a tactical tool, i would have been able to outrun and outturn both in my Italian 109 F-4 - because i have to use a pure fighter without af aaa; their speed advantage is too low to put pressure on a 109.
An example of fully intended use of af aaa as a tactical tool:
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In this match i flew with my SM 92 in a full uptier. After a few minutes i saw 4 190s close together at around 5 km alt; i assumed a squad (confirmed later by replay) and tried to look like easy prey with the hope that one of them would see me as an ez prey and follow me - and it worked.
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I flew to my airfield at around 5 km and separated him from his squad (=10 km+), forced him to dive on me and was immediately at his six after one dodge. In the replay you see how difficult it is to get guns on target is you fly with joystick. Easy kill, reclimb.
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I was 1 vs 2 after 12 minutes but had thanks to a T 18-B pilot something ~ 2.200 points ticket lead and altitude advantage. So flying 1 vs 2 with alt advantage is ok as long as they are not coordinated. Their only chance to win for them was that one kills my ai planes and some ground units to stop their ticket bleed and another one keeps me busy.
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I assumed that they would try to kill me as a team and if i would attack the higher guy he would drain my energy advantage by running to his squad mate. I flew to them to see what they are doing - both came for me, despite i counted 4 or 5 own ai planes which would increase my advantage.
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After 15 minutes i had a 3.100 points ticket lead (thanks to ai planes), at 15:40 with ~ 4.200 vs ~ 1.000 enemy tickets i had won the game. So if one of them would have gone low to kill ground and my ai planes in time, i had killed the other one as i had the advantage and a 190 D-12 / D-13 has zero chance in a 1 vs 1 if i do not make mistakes.
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They lost the match because they assumed i would feel the necessity to fight on their terms. Why would i fight 1 vs 2? They decided to go for me whilst i was clearly extending towards my airfield - so they proved that they were not able to make the right decisions.
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Without af aaa i would have spawned as a pure fighter. In a Bf 109 F-4 at the same 4.0 BR i would have outclimbed them, so i had used my strengths like they used theirs (fighting as squad) early game.
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But as i do not fly meta planes and i am not kill driven, i prefer my SM 92. So i dove at 15:40 into af aaa cover and stayed there (~ 5 min) until the ticket win.
And exactly such cases are described as af camping - inexperienced players are unable to “read” a match and blame af aaa as “game play killer” despite their own mistakes we leading to their defeat. It is not impossible to kill a ticket disadvantage of 2-3.000 tickets with 2 fighters - in 10-13 minutes, there were enough soft targets and ai planes to kill.
2 Likes
Most planes can easily kill 4 people with ammo to spare. If you “otherwise expended all your ammo”, that’s your problem not mine. If you’ve flown out a plane that has doesn’t have enough ammo for lots of kills, that’s your problem not mine.
Your gameplay decisions are your concern and the consequences of them should not be offloaded onto the other team in the form of a 3-4km deathzone around your airfield to let you repair and re-arm with impunity. Especially so when that deathzone is so easily exploitable for less innocent purposes than “get[ting] back to playing PvP”. The vast, vast majority of people using airfield AA to cover for them haven’t just shot down four planes, they’re just scared of the guy 1km below them on a much lower energy state getting a singular shot off on them.
You are not entitled to a free pass to re-arm just because the other team, as a whole, was able to gain an upper hand and deny you the breathing room to safely land. Doesn’t matter how many you killed, if your team is incapable of fending people off of one single airfield, your team rightly does not deserve the opportunity to safely RTB. It’s a risk, a gamble.
It’s a team game. Your solo actions, while impressive, should not entitle you to freebies like airfield AA covering you while you re-arm and re-climb. There are 16 players on the enemy team, not one. Individual merit counts in how you contribute to the whole, that should be it.
3 Likes
What angers me is when a dude with one assist gets to reclimb to my altitude for free after he got damaged early-game.
I just spent all match being useful to my team, conserving my ammo and probably getting 2-3 kills… and then a bozo who was chasing bombers gets to be above me and have a safety zone despite playing worse on every level. Victory belongs to the guy who can come and take it.
2 Likes
You should run for office, you’re good at taking forever to reach a conclusion.
“Just groundpound bro.”
If I wanted easier kills, I would fly in lowtier where no one knows what they are doing. If I wanted easier kills, I would be encouraging people to fly useless planes. If I wanted easier kills, I wouldn’t be teaching my friends and the community how to fly better. The top fragger in war thunder just flies out the MiG-3 - but I don’t do this, because I like a challenge.
Asking for removal / nerf of airfield AA is because it makes the gameplay less fun and draws out the outcome of the game, giving an unfair advantage to the player who can use his airfield to disengage at will, for free, often flying the better plane.
Gaming is already an unproductive use of time. The productive thing that it offers is fun. Camping your own base and playing extremely passive is not fun, and neither is dealing with such useless enemies. I have more fun fighting skilled enemies and losing than dealing with a passive patrick for fifteen minutes and winning. If I can die, I can be in another game in five minutes. Airfield campers have wasted hours of my life that I will never get back.
I consider airfield camping to be wrong and most skilled players do too, which is why in the skilled player community the AF campers never want to reveal that they camped base for their stats.
Later in this post you proceeded to say quote “there is nothing wrong with using an advantage the game offers.” Do you consider airfield AA a problem, or not?
Wishy-washy essay length posts don’t change the fact that airfield AA promotes boring gameplay that allows fighter pilots to make dumb mistakes and then get away with it without increasing their skill level. It is frustrating to fight for casuals and fighter mains alike, and when taken to the extreme it results in meta-plane 4-man base camping squads that RTB whenever they feel they are in the slightest danger of ruining their KD.
The removal of secondary base AA was great but it should be followed by a nerf to primary base AA and a way for bombers to rearm without landing, such as in-air rearm points or a replacement bomber if they fly to the edge of the map.
2 Likes