When, specifically?
IIRC it was stated that the variant represents an early stage of the Tornado used by the WTD 61, and has the more advanced weapons omitted to represent that development stage.
Dont use Thunderskill. Its useless, its a tiny sample size. Use Statshark.net. as it scrapes far more data.
Secondly, premiums usually always perform worse than direct TT equivalents. Now its a ground attacker, and so im not going to compare K/Ds, but SL/match and RP/match, The tonkas are actually performing rather well.
hu?
GR1 literally has weaker engines than the WTD61. So If I can do fine in the GR1, then I would do fine, if not better in the WTD61. I dont see how Gaijin has really been abusing the German ones any more than any other nation either. The ASSTA1 (actually the ASSTA3 technically) is one of the stronger Tonkas for that BR, only now just behind the RET8.
Heck, Germany at least gets the ARMs they actually used. The GR1 has been systematically denied ALARM.
SLE even gets stock IRCCM, GR4 does not.
They were at 10.7 before the decompression. So using that BR is highly misleading. I could say the Tornado F3 should be 11.3 like it was before, but the reality is that at 12.0, the decompression was a lot better for it and it performs better now its at 12.0 than it was at 11.3.
At the time of the decompression, they were 11.0 and are now 11.3.
From this
So there is an argument to be made that they are basically at teh same BR as before. But 10.7 pre-decompression doesnt exist anymore. Its a radically different BR scape than we have now.
At the end of the day, please compare the Tornado WTD61 with the Jaguar GR1A, A or E all currently at 10.7.
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Completly useless metric because as morvran said, extremely small sample size that is biased to hell and back.
Here are its stats from statshark for august.
Its ground pounder, its stats will always reflect that, it will never reach similiar KD and winrate comparable to dedicated A2A jets unless ARB fundamentally changes.
You’re using a strawman. I’m talking about a systemic BR problem, you’re talking about personal skill. Those are two different things.
The stats on Beeschurger’s screenshot say exactly the same thing as ThunderSkill did: 46.7% win rate, 0.32 kills per spawn (also please note SL and RP per game, that means they only get points for time alive, not even reaching the base). That’s not “a ground pounder being a ground pounder”, that’s a plane that can’t do its job. Compare it to the A-10A or Su-25 at lower BRs — they have K/Ds of 0.8-1.0. They’re ground pounders too, but they have the tools to defend themselves in case they get attacked. The WTD61 doesn’t.
The fact that the GR.1 has weaker engines and you do fine in it doesn’t cancel out the fact that the WTD61 was uptiered without getting any new weapons. The SLE at 12.3 is a free kill. The ASSTA1 is mediocre at best.
This isn’t about “skill issue”. This is about Gaijin systematically keeping German Tornados at ARB BRs where they can’t compete, ESPECIALLY at 12.3 uptiers, you just say your final prayers from the spawn. You can defend it all you want, but the numbers speak for themselves.
?
The A-10s and Su-25s exploit the fact they can see aircraft that cannot defend themselves against all-aspect missiles as they lack flares. That is literally the only reason they perform as “well” as they do currently.
But they still perform way worse than dedicated fighters do at the same BR
for example.
A-10A (premium) has a K/D of 0.64. The Su-25s are at 0.43. The best fighters at their BR are between 1.28 and 1.18. They are not performing “well”
Even the 10.7 versions are not doing anywhere near what you are suggesting.
A-10A late is at 0.68. With the best fighters at 1.50 region.
Ground attackers never perform well compared to the fighters at the same BR. At least in terms of K/D because well… That isnt there job.
Its like saying a Spitfire is a bad aircraft because it carries less bombs than a Lancaster.
So now lets look at the 11.3 BR range. K/Ds for the same month as the aircraft above>
Italian IDS 0.47, GR1 0.47, MFG, 0.47, ASSTA1 0.44, IDS (1995) 0.42, WTD61 0.39 (which is no surprise given its a premium)
This is with the Tornados consistantly performing better than the Su-39, Su-25T and Su-24M btw.
But if you swap to comparing SL/Match as that gives a better indicator of how a GROUND ATTACKER is actually fairing vs fighters who earn their SLs via PvP.
Then the GR1, MFG, IDS (1995) and ASSTA1 are all in the top 5 non-premimums, with the WTD61 as the second best premium.
Im not saying that compression isnt an issue, but an expectation that a ground attacker is going to be winning dogfights vs fighters is kinda dumb. For that to truly occur, then its going to have to be stupidly under BRed. Heck, in a full downtier, there isnt much a Tornado can do against a competetant F-5 or J-35XS pilot. So what BR do you want them at? 9.0?
Now the GR4 and SLE are performing poorly at 12.3, but that is an entirely different issue given just how badly compressed 12.3+ is right now. But that doesnt mean they need to be under BRed to an extreme degree
Every single other Tornado IDS also got moved up, and didnt get any new weapons either?
Hu?
ASSTA1 is the best 11.3 Tornado In-game right now. How are they “neglected”
WTD61 is a fricking SL printer, Id kill to have one like it, and then when you switch from ARB to GRB, I think they are under BRed and should be 10.0 Not 9.7. Id love to exploit the living hell of that BR if Britain had one that low in GRB
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Dear GM, I have to disagree. Your argument about the “early stage” does not take into account the historical role of the WTD61 aircraft itself.
It was a flying lab. Its task was to test and integrate weapons, not to fight with whatever’s been given.
The integration of the AGM-88 HARM began in the 1980s, and the WTD 61 was a key participant in this process. Historical documents and declassified reports confirm that these aircraft carried HARM missiles for testing and SEAD missions.
The AGM-65 Maverick was evaluated and tested as part of NATO standardization programs, the very fact of compatibility and ergonomics suggests that it was considered and/or even used.
Would increase its GRB rating from 9.7 to 11.3 and they cannot be used In ARB
no evidence has ever been found for AGM-65 fitted to a Tornado.
(Trust me, everyone looked when the Tonkas were first added and in waaaaaaay worse state than they are now)
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Lets not forget what happened last few times attacker was BR placed solely on their FM (MFG on release, Su-25 and A-10 on release).
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I dunno…
K/D or K/S is a very useless metric for an attacker. Not quite as useless as win rate is (which in my view says next to nothing about a specific type’s performance), but still pretty iffy…
I for example got 34 air kills in Sim in my Tornado MFG, with 101 deaths. Tells me really nothing as we can’t see what caused the death: air defense, enemy air, or just the ground and pilot error?!?
Win rate of 43%? So in 43% of the matches I played (with a total of 130 spawns) my team won. What does that say about my Tornado’s or my personal performance?
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Your “historical significance” argument does not take into account gaijin actually does work with “early” and “late” configs - US F/A-18C, Tornado F.3 etc.
Well if attacker had KD abd KpS same as pure A2A fighter of same BR id be concerned.
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Again, you’re using a strawman. I never said 9.0. I said 11.0 in Air RB. I don’t care that much about Ground RB — keep it at 9.7 or even move it to 10.0 if that helps. But in Air RB , the WTD61, ASSTA1, and MFG are not 11.3 material . They were fine at 10.7, acceptable at 11.0, and are unplayable at 11.3.
The fact that A-10 and Su-25 have the tools for self-defense (all-aspect missiles, powerful guns, flares) at their BR is only proving my point.
SL/match being high doesn’t mean the plane is good. It means it’s a bomb truck that dies after dropping its load, if it’s even lucky to survive that long. I don’t want a “SL printer”. I want a plane that can survive. There’s a difference.
And yes, every Tornado got moved up. But the German ones lost their 10.7 BR where they were playable , and got nothing in return. The British GR.1 at least has ARMs and GBUs. The German ones have nothing.
So no, I don’t want them at 9.0. I want them at 10.7-11.0 in Air RB. That’s not extreme. That’s just fair. Take away AIM-9Ls if you have to, replace them with Gs or whatever if you absolutely need, whatever. Just make it at the very least acceptable to play again.
Ooopsie…
(ok, not fair, I know. Shows yet again how problematic the strict role classification in WT is…)
Ground strike config tornado being a bombtruck???
How is that possible?
What point is that? Both have FM comparable to early cold war jets and sit so high solely due to their allaspect missiles.
Tornado would rinse them both in 1v1.
And you want to achieve that by adding A2G weapons that do nothing for its survivability in ARB?
Except they are at the same BR. If anything they are at a better BR now.
They didnt move up from 11.0 to 11.3 like a normal BR change.
Every single aircraft at 10.0+ moved up between 0.3 and 0.7.
Its BR is essentially the same right here, right now, but the aircraft it faces in a full uptier aren’t as much of an issue.
For example, The F-14A was 11.7, the Mig-29s were 12.0, the F-16s were 12.0, the F-15s were 12.3.
If the Tonka moved down to 11.0 because “it was fine before” should all those also move down to their original BRs?
Tornado IDS has all-aspect missiles, a decent gun, and flares?
Then dont play ARB, play ASB. But the only way its surviving like you want is if it was around 10.0/10.3. If not lower.
This is the change needed ot get them down to 10.7, maybe, but they would still curb stomp basically any other ground attacker at 10.7 currently ,like the Jaaaaags. So its ultimately a compression issue.
And ive thought about this before, because Britain lacks a low BR GRB Tonka, and I thought about they could add a Tornado GR1 (early) and make it interesting/different to the 3x “early” Tonkas already in-game.
A2G would be okay at letting it have the same options as everyone else at that BR, reminder that you get the first Mavericks as early as the J-22M1A at 9.0 (this early? damn), or the A-10A.
As for survivability — again, nothing I’ve said contradicts its undeservedly high 11.3, especially at full uptiers which are plentiful, from personal experience the majority of battles I’ve played were uptiers.
Which do nothing for ARB and it isnt 9.0 in GRB ;)
Which is played mostly in GRB as CAS in popular lineup.
While not contradicts it makes me wonder wtf is your argument as you repeatedly jump between GRB/ARB then proclaim ARB is where you interest lies and then go on and continue yapping about ordnance that would do literally nothing for ARB.
J-22M1A is 9.0 in ARB (because A2G has no impact on BR), but 11.0 in GRB.
and you can kill just as many AI with AGM-65 as you can with the 27mm Mauser
Adding things might not change its BR in ARB, but it would in GRB, and Gaijin considers both. It is getting AS-34s this major though as they have no use in GRB
You actually have one of the best defensive kits of the BR. Very good RWR, excellent CM count, etc.
Its FM needs work because its a total bodge job, but defensively its fine. Will get even better when it gets Sky Shadow, hopefully later this year.
The Tornado IDS has 3 fundemental issues
-
Its a ground attacker and ARB is not designed to be good for Ground attackers. We’ll have to see if NE ends up being decent for conventional ground attackers when it arrives properly this major
-
Diminishing returns punishing ground attackers for having the capacity to run more bombs
-
Compression. It shouldnt see half of the aircraft it can currently, but likewise the same can be said for those below it as well. They need to decompress the game again, like they did before (but better this time) and even if its BR doesnt really change much, what it sees in an uptiers could be greatly reduced
Now it could drop down to 11.0. Maybe, im on the fence, But we’ve only just gotten them to drop the GR1, IDS (1995) and ASSTA1 down from 11.7 to 11.3 after 2 years of fighting, so dropping all 7 down to 11.0 is not gunna happen anytime soon
In addition to the 3 points above, the changes I actually want to see for ALL the Tornado IDS is:
- Sky Shadow ECM
- BL755 CBUs
- JP-233 and MW-1 added to their respective aircraft
- Combat Thrust
- FM refinement (if nothing else, just the drag)
These would all really help with both the fun of the aircraft, but also their current performance in ARB/NE.
A more general improvement I would also like to see an overhaul of CCRP, especially when it comes to lofting. I would also like to see IR signatures overhauled to make 9Ls more effective, they should be harder to flare than they currently are
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See, now we come to a consensus. This I absolutely agree with. YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES.
Strike aircraft feel really bad in ARB in general. The diminishing returns on bombs, the fact that ARB is designed around PvP, and the compression — all of that is true. The German IDS isn’t unique in suffering from this, I’ll concede to that.
But here’s where I’ll still push back: the German Tornados have it worse than most. The British GR.1 and GR.4 at least get ARMs and GBUs. The Italian IDS gets guided bombs. The German WTD61, MFG, and ASSTA1 get nothing — just dumb bombs and AIM-9Ls (ASSTA1’s guided bombs don’t really change how bad it is in general though). And the SLE at 12.3 is a free kill for MiG-29s and Pantsirs.
So yes, decompression would help. Yes, fixing diminishing returns would help. Yes, making ARB better for ground attackers would help. But until that happens, the German Tornados are stuck at BRs where they can’t compete, and that’s not fair to the players who bought them.
I’m glad we can agree on the root cause. Let’s hope Gaijin actually does something about it.