Topic about Japan adds T-84 and VT-4

[Beeschurger]

@MAUSWAFFE

The issue is that the Czech L-39 going to USSR is like adding a Chinese VT-4 to China.

are you sure about that one? :P

[MAUSWAFFE]

@ADS145

only question is will DMM let Jap TT reduce to a subTT

I don’t think so, which is why I listed that in the negatives. I don’t think renaming the tree would ever be more than a temporary solution.

It could also be done based on localization, where some (like the DMM client or Japanese version) show it as Japan, while others (like the Chinese and Thai version) would show it as Thailand / ASEAN, similar to how in the past the rising sun flag was changed in some versions to the proper national flag that we only get internationally next update.
Though this would still leave the question what the international “default” should be. Maybe Indonsesia, just because it would be funny to have three different names based on localization.

But like I said the main solution is to rework subtrees, which could give Thailand and more authority to be a proper nation alongside Japan, instead of being placed under Japan. Shared lineups are still retained, it’s a rework for subtrees not a removal, but the nations are equal which removes the existing negative implications of subtrees.

[MAUSWAFFE]

Seems like I wasn’t…

[Beeschurger]

nah, happens, dont worry about it. I just thought it was funny :D

[Whisloy]

@MAUSWAFFE

But the VT-4 in question is not Chinese, it’s Thai.

@Beeschurger

its thai VT-4.

No it is not. It’s like adding Iraqi M1A1M Abrams to Soviet or Chinese tech tree people will see it as AMERICAN tank going where it shouldn’t so what ever country it will be sold VT-4 will be and stays as Chinese tank like people acknowledge Thai T-84 as Ukraininan tank.

[Beeschurger]

@Whisloy

It’s like adding Iraqi M1A1M Abrams to Soviet or Chinese tech tree people will see it as AMERICAN tank going where it shouldn’t

a single iraqi Abrams going to china and russia wouldnt indeed make sense.

But, if gaijin for whatever reason decided that Iraq is going to be a subtree for soviet union or china, then it is fair game.

@Whisloy

so what ever country it will be sold VT-4 will be and stays as Chinese tank like people acknowledge Thai T-84 as Ukraininan tank.

No, VT-4 will at best remain chinese manufactured tank, but it will be owned by thailand.

Same with the thai Oplot. It might be ukrainian manufactured vehicle, but it is a thai tank. Its explicitly version intended for export to thailand. Its not operated by ukraine.

If gaijin ever decides to add pakistani export version of Oplot to china, it will be also entirely fair game for china to get it; and it will be a pakistani tank.

[MAUSWAFFE]

@Whisloy

Iraqi M1A1M Abrams to Soviet or Chinese tech tree

Not necessarily Iraqi, but if you want to argue Abrams then I also fully support the ROC M1A2T to be added to the Chinese tree.

For Iraq that is more difficult since it’s not a subtree or nation yet, but if it did end up as USSR or Chinese subtree and Iraqi players agreed then I see no issue with it either. Sure it’s not that it stops being American made, but it is operated by Iraq, so it’s an Iraqi tank mainly. If it’s then added to Iraq (even if Iraq is in another techtree) it is exactly where it belongs.

@Beeschurger

If gaijin ever decides to add pakistani export version of Oplot to china, it will be also entirely fair game for china to get it; and it will be a pakistani tank.

^
This

[Whisloy]

@Beeschurger

pakistani tank.

Yet you was opposed to adding Czechoslovakian (Which is a bit different country than Czech Repbulic) vehicles to Soviet tech tree so it’s not Pakistani or Thai it’s Chinese tank.

@MAUSWAFFE

Not necessarily Iraqi, but if you want to argue Abrams then I also fully support the ROC M1A2T to be added to the Chinese tree.

But people will be opposed to that specially adding Abrams with APS system it’s a bit unfair to neglect Chinese people opinion sinse Abrams wasn’t added to Chinese sub-tree.

[Beeschurger]

@Whisloy

Yet you was opposed to adding Czechoslovakian (Which is a bit different country than Czech Repbulic) vehicles to Soviet tech tree so it’s not Pakistani or Thai it’s Chinese tank.

Im just gonna quote myself again.

@Beeschurger

i strongly oppose the placement of czech ješterka (the 30mil praga) and L-39 to the soviet TT - however if they were added as soviet L-39 (since they bought and operated the plane) and, i dont know, yugo or iraqi praga, I wouldnt see it as an issue.

[MAUSWAFFE]

@Whisloy

But people will be opposed to that specially adding Abrams with APS system it’s a bit unfair to neglect Chinese people opinion sinse Abrams wasn’t added to Chinese sub-tree.

If the issue you’re describing is that you want the M1A2T then you got my full support with that. I also support the part of the Chinese complaints asking to fix historical issues with their vehicles and weapons and to treat the techtree better in general.

I already said that wanting the Thai VT-4 does not mean wanting to harm China in any way. I’m not even trying to dismiss the concerns with the VT-4, but I want to find a solution that is as fair as possible to all involved nations, with Thailand as the actual operator taking priority.

Topic about Japan adds T-84 and VT-4

Sorry for the long reply, I couldn’t get it any shorter and still fit everything I wanted to say. This is also where I would start looking for solutions. I think at the core of this there is three sides to consider. Thailand, who operate their tank and deserve proper representation of their nation. → Thailand should have VT-4 Japan, who need subtrees to keep up with other nations (as example I want to use Britain with South Africa, India and sometimes other Commonwealth) and are the home for…

[ADS145]

@MAUSWAFFE

It could also be done based on localization, where some (like the DMM client or Japanese version) show it as Japan, while others (like the Chinese and Thai version) would show it as Thailand / ASEAN, similar to how in the past the rising sun flag was changed in some versions to the proper national flag that we only get internationally next update.

That’s definitely not a good idea ,we also used Eng ,Fra ,Ger and even Jap ver for game.It can’t hide.
By the way ,we acturlly found that taiwan vehicle still hanging the blue flag there already ,and in sim-chn ver it called china ,but in tra-chn or other languages ver. it called ROC .

[MAUSWAFFE]

Yeah, it’s not a good permanent solution. My main focus for a proper solution is to rework subtrees completely to be equally presented nations with no implied “main” nation holding any power.

Subtree Rework - Nation Folders

poll Subtree Rework - Nation Folders [Nation Folders] Subtrees are a good way to help existing nations in their efficiency and vehicle variety, while introducing new and exciting nations to the game. They have been a part of War Thunder since the release of update “Ixwa Strike” in March 2021. Yet, they also come with with a lot of criticism. From gameplay debates criticizing the addition of other nations vehicles “getting in the way” of researching the main nations vehicles, to more politic…

But if it’s temporary while Gaijin figures out a more complicated change it could work. Calling the tree Thailand for 2-3 updates while subtrees are improved is not an issue when after that both Thailand and Japan are individually featured.

[Whisloy]

@Beeschurger

Im just gonna quote myself again.

An answer that contradicts the previous statements.

[贯彻落实新时代强军思想]

I think we’re on the same page.

征集关于更新国家阵营体系的意见

鉴于近期出现的泄漏内容确实引起了不小的讨论，也让不少玩家对某些问题产生了不小的担忧，我认为gaijin确实需要更新现有的国家阵营表达方式以避免更大的争议发生。

[Beeschurger]

@Whisloy

An answer that contradicts the previous statements.

…in what way?

[Whisloy]

@Beeschurger

…in what way?

In the way that Czechoslovakia is not Czech Republic.

[ADS145]

Yeah , I really don’t want to discourage you , but I don’t think Gaijin will discuss it .Counting money on couch will more easier that reserch a new system for Gaijin now. They didn’t even want to fix the battle pass level bug!

[Beeschurger]

@Whisloy

In the way that Czechoslovakia is not Czech Republic.

im gonna give you a benefit of the doubt and assume that theres something getting lost in translation.

czech republic is succesor state of czechoslovakia, same as slovakia.

I oppose czechoslovakian (or czech and/or slovakian) operated and owned praga and L-39 in soviet TT due to historical reasons because that would be like adding china operated and owned VT-4 to japan.

I would also oppose addition of chinese operated and owned VT_4 to japan.

I however do not see an issue with soviet (or syrian, egypt etc.) owned and operated L-39 in soviet TT.

I also do not see an issue with thai VT-4 in thai subtree.

[贯彻落实新时代强军思想]

In fact, the new plan will not add too much work, and it can fundamentally alleviate the current intense debate. If gaijin insists on the feasibility of this plan, my suggestion is that gaijin can make experiments first and then promote it based on the results.

[MAUSWAFFE]

Yeah, that’s the problem. But sadly it’s our only option as players we have to act fair to all sides:

→ Not adding VT-4 is unfair to Thai players who want to see their tank in game

→ Moving the Thai subtree away is unfair to Japan players who need the support to match other nations

→ Just adding it as it is now is a historical issue for Chinese players

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Maybe a “neutral” option could also be to give an option to select techtree names/flags between the nations included. So instead of just having Japan it’s whatever each player selects from the options of Thailand, Japan or Indonesia.
This might be a lot easier to implement and be a more realistic solution than completely changing the name. It would also still make Japan no more of a “main” nation than any other, since the nation presented is whatever a player decides and Japan is just one of the options.