You are saying that anyone and everyone who engages in PvE acitivities after someone says “PvE lobby?” in all chat is automatically guilty and should get perma banned
Except. That is just stupid and idiotic and downright insane. Bombing bases is not against the EULA, never has been and never will be.
You just want PvE removed from SB. For what reason I dont know, but at this point I dont think you actually understand what this thread is about. It is about people using various tactics, like being abusive, false reporting or TKing to enforce a “PvE lobby”.
An entire match engaging in Mostly PvE activities doesnt mean they are colluding, might be out of game, its true, but almost impossible to prove without a pattern of matches.
So anwser this question, and you have yet to answer it.
With the punishment being a ban of some decription.
What criteria does someone have to meet to be in violation of the EULA when it comes to colluding with the other team in SB?
I told you before I was done with you, and the only response that I’ve given is because you were all ‘Good post’ to Bunny, who I genuinely don’t think recognized the actual insinuation, and what was being alledged here, all the while you’ve been excusing it the entire time.
Just because you don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it’s not a concern.
Maybe its you who needs to re-read through this thread. Inclduing the original post, because everything that I have said has just been para-phrasing others includng a GM.
I’d especially focus on the posts by Schindibee who is an ACTUAL senior game master who actually plays SB. Because everything i’ve said is what hes said as well.
You may want to avoid using red text, that’s a special colour apparently.
I’m looking for clarity from the Game Masters on this because the situation is obviously out of your grasp being you’re fixated on what doesn’t count and trying to explain why people are vulnerable, when I’ve already mentioned many times that they are pretty obvious when you actually think about it rather than just straight deny it.
So @Bunny_宝妮 and @Schindibee who else do we need to bring into this, because I see this as not being an issue anymore seeing as the event is over and the BP is almost over, the sim PvE’ers here, would likely be long finished…
This shouldn’t be accepted in the slightest, and it allures to the idea of using the old sim botfarm method being ‘fine’ because the ‘player’ didn’t say ‘pve’ but yet just shot up a whole heap of bots on an airfield…
But its not “Always” that obvious though. You have only stated that someone engaging in PvE action in a manner that appears as if they are not “worried” about PvP (such as not looking around, or flying in a straight line) is proof of collusion. Depsite several examples being provided where that same behaviour could be innconently explained. Such as simply being a new or bad player.
But yes, It would be best to hand this over to a game master who can actually explain the rules to you better than I can.
The Users are not permitted to use red color when drafting and designing posts and signatures on the Forum. The red font is reserved for Administration and the Website Managers.
That is probably the most clear description here about what is ok and what not.
It’s unavoidable that there is a “gray area” if it comes to such things, as ultimately clear proof of abuse is difficult to come by. Sure, certain actions (or lack thereof) imply someone acts in a way forbidden by the rules, but to actually prove misconduct often requires much more.
There’s a balance that any game producer must try to achieve: On one hand he doesn’t want his game to be abused in a way that makes it less fun for others to play, as this hurts business, on the other hand he only wants to punish people who really did something not allowed, because punishing people who have done nothing wrong also hurts business.
But how do you determine that?
With chat related offenses we GM’s are very fortunate: Our automatically generated chat logs 100% prove what offenses someone has typed in chat. N-word => chatban for racist languag. Simple. (Ok, nt only simple, as often context plays a role as well, hence automated filters only are of marginal use here…).
TK and team damage offenses also can be tracked quite easily server-side, as it’s obviously easy to track who killed who and thus how often someone does a blue-on-blue and deserves a time-out. So here an automated system as is in place in WT is a good way to go about it, and in my experience works very well.
All other gameplay related offenses (cheating, hacking, botting,…) are however much more difficult to prove (or disprove!), and this process a) relies heavily on the help of players observing the forbidden actions and reporting it, and b) requires a lot of resources to look carefully at those reported cases, to determine if a forbidden behaviour is 100% clear - so clear that it allows to irrevokably deny access to the game.
As to what is allowed and what not, @Morvran as I mentioned summed it up quite well.
What we do when observing such “PVE arrangements” in a match ourselves is to first warn, explain that this is not allowed. Often players simply are not aware that it’s against the rules, and often, that settles it already.
Where we immediately get active is of course if the warning is not heeded, and especially of course if the “PvE Fanatics” start enforcing it by harassing verbally or via gameplay. “Hey, we told you we don’t what that, yet you continue and are even being an donkey about this - out with you!”
Big discussion point obviously is also the detection of PvE (or even the definition of it), and also here I’m afraid @Morvran has repeatedly explained it well: Playing the game completing missions against AI units is NOT passive play, and neither is trying to avoid an engagement.
PLEASE NOTE that this is probably a bit different in Sim EC than in the other game modes: When I’m in a Realistic match and hide up in space or over an airbase to prolong the match and let tickets bleed out in my favor while the opponent can’t do anything about it, its a bit different from an Enduring Confrontation where actually longer matches are favored and ticked bleed is not so much dependent on time, but on actions.
But how to determine if someone is playing PvE?
Hard.
Just two examples for two Sim EC matches I played recently, both with Sea Harrier:
In the first match I took off, headed towards a target I selected. On the way there I noticed a blue base nearby just lost points, so I looked out and spotted the enemy attacker. I deviated course, and as the geometry favored me, engaged and killed the enemy Tornado that just had bombed the blue base.
I continued to kill “my” base, returned home, flew out again to kill another base, and after doing that circled the area a bit as some enemy aircraft were reported nearby, which I felt I could maybe take out. They found me first, and a Flogger got me. And later I killed some more bases, but did not engage or get engaged by the enemy players.
In the second match, I also took off and headed for a target, located relatively close, by the border of the map. I selected a route a bit off, as quite a few kills were reported a bit closer to the center of the map but still uncomfortably close, and judging from the kill feed and statistics, I judged my chances to go against the enemy there as being to unfavourable for me (enemy top ace killing a friendly just a grid or two away - not good…). So I continued on my bombing mission, NOE, between trees, to really avoid “getting into trouble”. Attack, disengage, sneak home again. Repeat.
For the causal observer this may have looked like botting or PvE: Straight lines, in and out quickly, no apparent reaction to other players. Yet I was observing my surroundings, radar and RWR very closely, always judging if my chosen route would lead me to success or to disaster, and just coincidentally my choice was wise, and I had no trouble with enemy fighters.
So, was I abusing the game mode playing “PvE” in this second match?
No. Circumstances just resulted in my actions being less “PVP-like” than in the first match.
So as long as the players don’t ‘mention’ that they’re playing PvE, then it’s fine to join a room full of bots?
This isn’t a chat offence, this is about the actual act of joining a room of known bots, and participating in that match, gaining the advantage of not having to be aware of any player actions, because those players, aren’t going to be doing anything against you, by their coordination.
If they aren’t the botters, but knowingly join a botting room, and exploit the fact that the bots, aren’t going to come for them, is that fine?
((Whilst I’m sure someone will be upset and be all ‘OMG HE’S STILL AT IT!!!’ it’s the technicality that’s been ignored here, throughout this thread, and hence why I was peeved at M for keeping on and on about how it may not be…
If someone just joins that match, with all the bots, not that they are the botter, but still ‘benefits’ from the passive play presented by that ‘PvE lobby’, knowingly, and demonstrably, they are definitely part of this issue… They didn’t say the key words, but if they’re joining, match after match with the same few botters, they are benefitting
It’s exactly like the Heli EC guys who were exchanging kills… Some of them, they didn’t even say a word… Everyone would just fly to the enemy spawn, and start spamming kills on the pad as a bunch… Hell of a good time for ‘all’ of them, not really for someone who chose the wrong spawn thinking players were going to try defend themselves…))
Simply joining a lobby, seeing that everyone else is “Bot-Farming” and proceeding to not engage them out of your own free will and without agreeing to anything in chat (maybe because you were gonna use an attacker to bomb bases anyway), is not against EULA afaik.
You’ve confused my statement… The heli ec kill farming was a show of no-one needing to say anything, they just ‘knew’ they were doing that and all joined in the rush…
If you know though that the bots are sitting in there, doing nothing, you’ve joined a passive lobby where you’re under no threat of being attacked, hence it’s a passive situation, you aren’t going to be hunted and you’ll be fine with that.
So you go do your thing… Knowingly doing this, is unfair to the rest of us.
((@Schindibee This is why it’s really difficult with people who are muddying the issue, to actually get it directly to your attention))
(After all, some of these posts were flagged and removed even at one point)
You are severely mistaken. They may be wrong for creating the environment, a random player that joins and decides not to engage them without agreeing on it via chat, is not.
You’re not abusing it if you just play the game how it’s intended to be played. It’s not “I wanted to play bomber, but there’s botters, so I must play a more PvP playstyle to counter or negate those botters, otherwise I’m considered a botter as well”.
Of course, seeking such sessions specifically to join the rank of exlicit PvE abusers, that’s not ok.
What I recommend, is to always:
a) Play the match, just as you would normally (eventually others will join doing that as well) and how it is intended to be played (which would be PvPvE, if we want to use that term): Play the objectives, kill the (AI and player) enemy! Like this you automatically force them to adapt to the PvP playstyle we all want, instead of the other way round.
and
b) Report the players that are suspected of botting (or admit doing so)
You’re certainly not expected / encouraged to leave such a match. What would you (or Gaijin) gain from this? It’s the same like a freshly started match with just 4 players, and it will probably populate with “normal” players. Play the game, turn it into a PvPvE match.
On the contrary, if you leave such PvE-matches, you give the botters free hand, because they have it easier if they can go about their business without PvP-opposition and without getting reported…
As I mentioned before, our system relies a lot on players reporting other players for misbehavior. I know that a lot of people think that’s shifting too much responsibility and work onto the shoulders of the players, but one must also take into consideration that a) players are always around and will spot issues and abusive behavior very reliably, and b) (sadly again) it would be extremely resource intensive to proactively manage this by “policing” those matches. That’s realistically just not feasible I’m afraid.
And yes I’m very aware that the issue then quickly shifts to “but what happens with my reports?” and a lot of scepticism if this works at all.
I understand that, we all do, but you can rest assured that we are monitoring this closely, and take actions, even if this may not be clear or evident for the players.
Again, reporting is the key, and obviosuly frequency plays a role, as a botter who gets reported more washes up in our nets quicker and more reliably, and is dealt with as this helps us prove a misconduct on their part.
Important however. This does NOT mean that one should spam reports, as on the contrary this would “water down” the system and make it less effective: It’s way more effective if a player is reported 5 times once in 5 different matches, than 25 times in just one match, obviously.
I know I’m not severely mistaken as peopel assume that these lobbys ARE PvE by default, so they’ve come to accept that they are that way anyway, so the mentioning isn’t going to catch everyone…
There’s not enough reports if the limit is still as it was 6 months back.
It took a LONG time for the heli EC problem to be raised because people couldn’t understand it, and because peopel excused it as ‘bad luck’ for a time as well, playing out ‘Oh they can choose another spawn, oh whoops, they chose the wrong spawn’ where they were merely sitting there taking off, constantly…
Mate, how long have you actually been playing Simulator Battles? Because from the “little” you’ve written here, it seems to me that it’s not that long.
In case you come from RB: In SB, we do not always go straight for the furball and there are a lot more options to engage in Strike missions (bomb targets) and many SB-Players enjoy doing this.
Circumstances regarding a lobby you joined do not factor into how you will play the match.
If someone comes to bomb bases, that’s what they will do. Regardless of what the rest of the lobby is doing. Same with pilots who join to chase after players.
Yea, sorry, but just because I’m not a player of sim, doesn’t mean I can’t highlight the issue that some are blatantly ignoring because they benefit from it.
You are not highlighting an issue. We are already aware of actual abuse. That’s the whole reason for this Thread (which you did not create btw).
What you are trying to say is that all players who engage in “PvE” when they find themselves in a lobby with farmers should be punished.
So based on your suggestions the only logical way to avoid punishment (in that sense) would be to either engage in PvP in those lobbies or leave those lobbies if you don’t want to engage in PvP.
What we are saying is that playstyle should not and cannot be forced by any party.
