They actively have now removed ticket bleed factors due to complaints of matches ending prematurely and folks actively camping now.
landing, rearming and re-engaging is fine, circling an air field is actively hindering other peoples gameplay.
for all intents and purposes the ToS does state that this is a form of passive reportable behaviour as laserdestroy mentions above.
No one has claimed this is passive behaviour, youre still actively participating in the match, as are the others engaging you.
What is passive behaviour is literally setting a plane to climb to LAO and afking, alt tabbing etc, or circling your runway as it actively impedes the gameplay of others.
Now on the terms of stats i cant check yours cause your acc doesnt show up, but i do have thousands of battles in ARB with a mostly positive KD in most my planes to boot.
And seeing people circle the runway not participating at all, just using the AAA as a sheild should be considered passive
Out of my thousands of prop battles, there were very rare battles with af campers in a way I or my team can’t do anything to win the battle.
And on the other hand, if his team bleeded ticket so hard I can’t counter it, it was the fault of my team me included.
Most of the time 1vs X players they don’t give the last one any chance to go out by pressing him into his af bubble. So you have to circle in the bubble to get at least some alt and speed. Pressing him with a ticket disadvantage is the wrong tactic.
So using this tactic and crying after 10sec “af camper” is a little bit paradox.
Similar stupid things happen in higher tiers with chasing the last guy to af and die to aa instead of groundpounding, especially during event time every points counting.
The removal of this ai plane ticket drain nonsense was a great relief - it allows now much longer matches without the essential need to kill those ai planes if things go south or you expect a very close match.
I do not see a change of camping behaviour - maybe because i use other servers or just because i play props only.
At least at prop BRs i am not aware of any mission objectives (which are the keystone of any game play) which requires to kill the last enemy player. In other words: Camping works both ways and nobody prevents players from playing objectives.
I had such a case recently, a 109 which i engaged at 10.400 meters.
In any case i- if you read the OP again you will find out that your own assessment of passive game play has to be seen in context to the activity before those “ticket lead defending” strategy comes into play - this is measured by battle activity within wt.
In other words: If the guys you are complaining about have done their part in getting a ticket lead there is nothing wrong with defending it.
I do agree that i am extremely annoyed if i lose on certain Pacific maps against players with a mission score of 0 (and this happened dozens of times due to auto ticket win for US/UK) but i accept that gaijin has other priorities.
Known forum bug/feature in case you change your gamer/xbox tag.
A rookie in a US premium 109 went afk and climbed above 9.5 km until 11:17 - then he took control of the plane, turned around (11:45), got blind hunted (12:00) and continued climbing to 10.400 meters (14:30). I merged with him with a speed disadvantage of ~ 100 kmph TAS and an altitude disadvantage of ~ 250 meters.
Then he tried to energy trap / outturn me (15:00) , whilst i was able to equalize the altitude (9.300 m) and just being 100 kmph slower. At 15:35 i was 600 meter behind him and equally fast and opened fire. At 16:00 i closed up to 110 meters - pilot snipe at 16:06 at an altitude of 8.000 meters.
I played in a B-18B, even in a G-6 his sole advantage would have been his first turn, otherwise all a 109 can do is running away using the slightly higher top and rip speed, climb rate doesn’t matter above 10 km…
I have not reported this guy as i don’t know for sure if this was planned or not, and even if it would have been planned - why should i report him?
Imho everybody is free to play how he wants to play. In addition i even have some understanding for such guys as (depending on daytime and server) playing US props below 5.3 is (almost) every time an auto-defeat.
And even if he would have been reported by my team - does anybody believe that gaijin would even consider a warning or a temp ban?
He plays actively in most of his matches and bought premium hardware, so even if he would have played 20 games in a row like this: GMs state that they are in charge of chat violations - and nothing else.
From gaijin’s pov he can do what he want - and in case he decides to do nothing - he fills a lobby and gaijin has no real interest in skilled players. That’s why Air RB looks like a mess and winning / losing became (mostly) a random event, mainly decided by the MM.
Alright heres one from my match in the J8B a couple hours ago roughly.
On Afghanistan, im on the 4 o’clock of a mig23 ML who just downed a dude in a head on with an R24.
I come in from the flank and see he has at least 1 x R60 and possibly an r24 left, his plane far outpaces the J8B, so thats what he does, he runs, now im expecting them to open the gap spin around and ram a r24 downmy throat. Instead of this, he goes over 25km back to his airfield, to fly around it.
Now i had caught wind of this and tried to intercept, sadly mucked up and his speed far out done mine and he arives about 6km head of me, maybe what 25 seconds ? If that.
Proceeds to circle.
I am too low on fuel to turn around, have to force.it, get shredded.
Genuinely seen it a lot at prop tiers when i played them but prefered early jets, almost every match had someone who would absolutely B line for their air field rather than engage at all.
If the airfield is being camped and you literally cannot take off that is different, you landed and rearmed you arent actively running there at any sign of engagement and hovering around the damm AAA.
Genuinely i have noticed it in the 8.3 to 11.3 bracket, it means the people who do just run away straight away cannot win as effectively.
You know as well as i do how this as well as.i do that the objectives arent worth doing compared to say shooting down active players, which also is encouraged more and more the higher you go, hence why bombers and even some strike fighters are nearly if not, completely useless in ARB.
None of this however changes the fact actively circling the airfield, and or actively running back to it, to use it as a crutch by all definition of the words used in the ToS breaches it.
(We need ARB EC but that is a different conversation).
A ticket lead they attain 95 percent of the time by letting the AI do the work for them, which as i stated has actually been addressed in the more recent tweeks to the AI.
Was confused by it tbh more than anytning, thanks for informing me for future reference, apologies for any offence maybe caused.
For this topic we have a pinned thread. Regarding your assumption of a breach of the ToS i recommend reading this post in the thread (the embedded video by gaijin is relevant) - it kills your ToS argument completely:
The majority of significant ticket leads early to mid game was always caused by player activity, the only map where player and ai plane interactions happened almost at the same time is Tunisia.
I was never a friend of ai planes as they produce at the end of the day way more harm than upsides due to this insane “Borg-Spotting”. In addition gaijin fumbled with their implementation on certain maps and i see a lot of them unbalanced (like 190 F-8s vs A-26s at 5.0) either due to more ticket impact of the 190s or way more kills by defensive gunners of the A-26s.
But they added another level of complexity you had to consider and with some experience you could use their full potential.
The major downside of ai planes was always that their mechanics were way too complicated to be understandable or predictable for the average player - and you needed a hell of experience to come to the right conclusion in order to cause or avoid ticket defeats.
So you still see the average fighter player groundpounding in spotting range of enemy ai planes - or the classic B-25 pilot trying to sneak in at tree top level to bomb bases and passing the same ai planes multiple times without gunning them down.
The complaints which led to a target change of ai planes were imho more map design weaknesses (too few targets / tickets) as gaijin has the tendency to fumble with map design and is able to prove with every major change that quality controls are for snowflakes. That’s the reason why you see on some maps all 6 ai planes circling and doing nothing.
Example of effective use of ai planes(hidden as imho just a side topic):
If your team killed on specific maps the right targets at the right point in time the early ticket impact was extreme, whilst the ticket impact of ai planes early to mid game was minimal - if your team killed the wrong targets the ai planes produced little zero to ticket impact early game - but the reduction of worthless targets multiplied the impact of undisturbed ai planes mid to late game.
You saw this effect best on old, but revised maps with asymmetric targets (one side has tanks, the other pillboxes as main targets) like Huertgen or Sicily.
So if your team had the side with pillboxes and killed a lot of them fast enough the game was almost guaranteed won if you managed to take out enemy ai planes and the majority of enemy strike aircraft. Why? Because the average prop pilot has way more issues to kill medium ai tanks than pillboxes.
But even if your team attacked the “wrong” targets (meaning soft like arty and aaa) and died quick you were able to win if you could distract the enemy team from killing your ai planes (or just keeping them busy) these ai planes could help you to win if you were able to lure all enemies in chasing you at high alt instead of going low.
Why? Ai planes worked their way up, starting from low to high value targets. So if you played 1 vs 4 or 2 vs 6 the enemy team had often a ticket advantage and tried to kill you whilst having a false sense of security that they would control the battle. But as soon as your ai planes ran out of soft targets they started to kill high value targets and the tickets dropped extremely quick.
If the enemy team reacted not quick enough they ran into a irrecoverable ticket disadvantage, especially if their targets were tanks.
In other words: Killing ai planes right at the start (at least until mid game) was essential to win matches.That is also the main reason why i have a very low KpB ratio but a rather high win rate as pure solo player as from my 23.144 air kills just 15.694 were player kills, so ~ 30% ai kills.
It hardly kills the ToS argument at all.
The video advises to pull back to team mates and the base AAA, IT DOES NOT SAY in even top tier superiority fighters, to circle your airfield for 15 minutes and let the AI finish the game for you.
There is a massive difference of a youtube video, compared to the ToS, the ToS states about passive gameplay, which as has been pointed out to you, by definition is what circling the air base is.
Again, by the definition of the words used in ToS it actively is breaking it. i didnt write the definitions nor the ToS
There is a distinction between taking your Lancaster back to base so you dont get shredded, and sitting doing donuts around it as youre the last man, artificially extending game time as well as împeding others.
the complaints were the planes premeturely ended games while people were still either fighting, rearming or still cruising to fight.
There was an absolute mountain of complaints from CCs, top tier players and some mid to lower tiers.
Especially that 8.7 to 10.7 area where missiles arent completely dominant, games could last a heck of a lot longer and were shredded by AI.
Whatever you say man, i change my opinion as soon as we either see an official statement by gaijin reacting to this topic or a “coming out” of a player who received a temp ban.
Otherwise you are just trying to find anything which supports your opinion (which is not bad by definition) whilst i am more pragmatic.
Let’s keep it that way.
I am fully aware of this, but none of the groups you listed was able or willing to invest time to bring more than an unspecified “i don’t like it - Gaijin change it!”.
Saying that something is wrong requires zero effort, bringing specific examples of what has to be changed on which specific map at which BR with which measures is called constructive criticism.
If you are able to show me a similar thread like this:
which addressed this specific ai plane topic multiple times (In the Op itself as example #1 and the examples #2, 3 and 7) i consider changing my mind if you can show me comparable efforts in this forum.
But from my pov it doesn’t matter who says what if there is no clear indication why they say what they say.
Players will always complain as long as gaijin refuses to implement a “Free SL/RP” button in the UI / hangar screen - and cc’s tell what they think their audience expect or likes to hear as they care primarily about their views, clicks and number of subs - which have a monetary quantifiable feedback called add revenues.
Both peoples are needed , tbh id find it far better if gaijin did finally say something on the matter oppose to folks interpretations of it, mine included.
[quote=“Uncle J Wick@live, post:251, topic:80149”]
Agree for the ai planes part.
youre making good well written points i have read it all and yeah fair enough tbh, i dont have a debatable point that wouldn’t be flat out denial,.so ive said my part and ill leave it here
Seems we can’t keep my name out your mouth, what? Does it tastes that sweet?
By the way fellas, most of this guy’s advice boils down to and I quote ’ sacrifice yourself so that the better veterans can get the kills’ . ’ you losing is just gaining experience, and you should get shot down to get experience.’ ’ new players don’t deserve to win.’ And my favorite ’ unless you are a real life veteran fighter pilot who shot down the entire enemy airforce using a toilet bomb, then you don’t deserve an opinion.’
We you forget is that your issue with passive play is not cause it’s annoying, it’s cause it makes it harder for you to shoot down said player.
Also here is actual evidence of my gameplay today that obviously justifies why someone would go passive.
Below you will see why I prefer to space climb in an attempt to trigger 5k SL orders against me, otherwise with how the game economy works, I get NOTHING.
Also in these results, the time of game start til the time I took the screenshot is roughly 5-6 minutes. That is the same amount of time it takes me to get to my planes preferred alt to set up energy fighting.
Its seems as if rules against passive behaviour only exist as a framework for punishing bots.
If people are correct in that circling the airfield cannot be punished then there’s nothing to worry about.
As far as people complaining goes, you’re abusing the runway AAA as a protective screen. Just because it’s not punishable doesn’t mean it’s not a shitty thing to do.
Personally, I wish Runway AAA functioned like motion detection spotlights but with extra steps. A damaged plane enters a certain radius and then they have 2-3 minutes of cover fire to land and then rearm before there’s a cool down.
That way in the middle of the battle with several planes and bombers legitimately rearming as intended can operate unaffected but if someone is camping the runway at the end of a match, they get a chance to rearm and climb but have to then defend themselves long enough for a cooldown timer to rengage and fighters patiently waiting know they’ll have a window to strike
Did you even bother looking at the screen captures or do I trigger you so much you so much you didn’t bother to understand the basic meaning of nothing?
Did I say I lost SL? No I did not. I said I get NOTHING. Nothing means I don’t get a single SL to begin with. So there I two choices you can clearly see if you bothered to look at the screenshots
throw myself at overwhelming odds ( In some cases against ENTIRE TEAMS AS PICTURED ABOVE) with no guarantee of even a critical hit unless I go jousting
Or
the, the sane option, go space climbing, trigger orders possibly and be at least guaranteed 5k SL. Which is better than.
LANDING AND HOLDING J AND SEE ZERO NECT TO THE SL SYMBOL.
Actually it’s quite capable airframe. One of the few sessions I enjoyed, it was down to me and a lone f6f against 4-6 other planes. He went low to ground pound and I went high. As soon as the enemy team showed up to kill the f6f, I attacked.
The fact I can hit nearly 500 mph, my guns hit like a ton of bricks, my excellent climb rate, and point control means I could hit fast, hit hard, retreat. At that point the enemy team energy trap themselves and it was easy to clean them up.
However, such games rely on two things. At least 1-2 other players that are t brain dead and for the odds not being overwhelming against you. A 2-3 plane disadvantage can be managed, 4-16, just run away, ain’t nothing good gonna happen.
Your goals determine the necessity to have a strategy to get there.
WT requires a lot of time or a lot of money to progress.
WT requires the willingness (and ability) to learn.
The wt forum is full of good advises to get better & to progress.
It looks like that your reading comprehension is on par with your pilot skills. None of your statements can be proven - learning does not mean anything what you are referring to.
If you read my post again you will find out, that your opinion is solely based on your interpretation of what i wrote.
Regarding “passive behaviour”:
When my core message was:
Your post makes zero sense as I have neither a problem with what others do and how they play nor with people who like or dislike the way others play.
So by mentioning your claim i used a recent example referring to the OP without any assessment.
Therefore statements like this:
…just show that you:
a) don’t know the difference between “I” and “we” or
b) talk about yourself in 3rd person and
c) are unable to come to the right conclusions
All of this is your private business. If you are not happy that your statements in a public forum can be used to discuss certain topics from different angles you should rethink your communication approach.
When i read such things you write towards others (who gave you a hell of valuable recommendations for free):
You simply act hostile towards others without any reason.
This forum is there to help and support each other - and to discuss certain aspects of the game. Having deviating opinions does not imply that you have to be rude.
As neither reading nor answering your posts creates any additional value for me i have decided to put you on my ignore list.
Hey dude, trying to sound educated when slinging insults just makes you look silly.
This you buddy? In the Same thread? totally different attitude from what your trying to show here. Kinda Sound like your kinda talking disparaging about the US there. Truth hurts buddy.
Violation of section 2 of the forum rules, how nice.
Hey dude, it’s also against the rules to announce that in the public forum.
Actually, do me a favor and read your own posts and those of others. You don’t want me to be ‘hostile’ then do this. Take my name out your mouth or I will bring the smoke. Don’t twist my words to make it sound like I said something else, ( for the record I never stated I was losing SL, that wasn’t the complaint. It was the gaining of SL)
And I march energy, you want to act like a self absorbed arrogant person, I’m going to respond accordingly. You want to misrepresent what I said to suit you agenda, I’m going to correct you, harshly.
Back to topic
The fact you ‘didn’t report him for passive behavior’ shows that you believe that it should be punishable, regardless of the situation the pilot might be in. My point to counter yours is that passive is justified cause there is not other way to make other than orders or destroying enemies. So if you want to make SL when your team got cooked under you, might need to get cheeky.
By the way you show your hypocrisy later with the ’ not big deal play how ever’ when you literally admitted that you consider reporting people for how they play, dude at least I try to be consistent a little.
And actually I did bring evidence my dude, check my first post on this thread. It is clear as day what the situation was every time I went passive. Every time I did what every US player should do, climb, when I did my team melted, I was left alone and outnumbered at least 6 to one. Standard gameplay would run a high risk of zero reward.
That’s it, there is no secret , wave of the hand, or some convoluted hidden nihilistic message in my words. I simply say yes, get out of here with the passive play style hate, and here is why it’s a good idea.
