Japan is basically worst tank nation low - mid tier - please fix (brs, lineups etc.)

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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I think we can all agree that Japan is basically the worst tank nation to grind or start with. Talking not just from my experience but wherever you look people rank Japan as the worst tank nation to start with. Nobody is gonna recommend new players to start with Japan because it’s just pure pain even worse than Italy and France. And best of all. You cant actually even start with ground japan. Game literally does not let you. Idk if it always been the case as I started playing before there were any tanks. But recently helped friend start so I can safely say its not an option.
(this is what i mean by not begin able to start with japan in ground ↓ )
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Now let’s look at japanese brs. Where ever you look moust japanese ww2 tanks compare to tanks of other nations are overtiered by at least 0.3 br or more as its case with Chi-nu 2 or both Ho-ris - even so japanese guns were hit the hardest with volumetric shells uplate and bounce asf (like seriously I bounced twice in row up close M24 from the back to the engine and to the turret with Chi-Ri and then got oneshot by it). And it wasn’t always the case. Only reason for their BR keep getting raised over the years is that people play japan as their last tank nation after grinding all the other. So overall K/D would be better. But that does not make them better tanks nor is reason for such high brs.

Then lineups. Which are basically non existing as those few that kind of existed got things randomly uptiered.

-Also japan has no 3+ color camos for free (best free you can get is 2 color winter camo) even so Japan simmlary to Germany commonly used a wide range of multi color camos on most of its tanks. Unlike allies that barely ever used something else than single color camo due to having constant air superiority laiter in the war and preferably made notice that those are their own tanks rather than using camouflage to prevent friendly fire. So does not make any sense for Japan to have those multi color camos for GE if it was so common while allies like Americans have like 3 or 4 multi color camos (just for playing the game and getting kills or exp) for free even though in history they were barely used by them.

  • japan has probably the worst close air support too, only really useful to take down close air support of the enemy.

Now how can this be fixed?

1 give japan some solid starting premium and let ppl start with japan - could be just copy paste chi-ha kai or commander version of chi-ha kai or chi-ha or some brand new one- (then there would be more newbies playing too and overall K/D would be worse)

2 add unique japanese tanks such as Type 4 Ke-Nu, Type 5 To-Ku, Ho-Ni 2, Chi-Ri 1, Type 98 Chi-Ho, Type 5 Ke-Ho, O-I etc. or commanding versions for some existing tanks. Also add them as normal tech tree vehicles (not like with Ka-Chi as 1 chance event vehicle that no new player can get after event ends- please never again) even if they are rare or prototypes they are needed to fill the gaps and make proper lineups. I am sick of copy pastes from american tech tree.

3 new multicolor camos for japan low tier or just make those existing jungle camos free and give ppl back their GE.

4 some good cas would be helpfull

5 br changes. A lot of them.

  • bring Chi-Ha kai back to 2.0 as its really just glorified russian or american reserve tank.
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-ho-ni 3 really should be at 2.0 just like ho-ni 1 as its only advantage is crew (that gets one shot anyway) and that its no longer open top (but the armour is still non existing and planes can just go right thru) - while Ho-Ni 1 has actually 50 mm front armour on the turret cheeks with extra plate while the hull is relatively same so the extra 0.3 br really isn’t worthy and together with ^chi-ha kai it would make good 2.0 br lineup for new players.
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-Chi-he from 2.7 to 2.3- given its basically just Chi-ha kai with extra 25mm slapped on it and better hull. Its not really worth begin in br with things like M3 lee, Sherman with 105 mm howitzer, Valentine, B1 ter and Matilda that Chi-He mostly cant pen (not even talking about full uptier) while they all can just shoot straight thru like butter.
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-same with Chi-Ha long gun from 2.7 to 2.3 that has just 103 mm penetration while things like Zis-30 having APHE that penetrates 145 mm or german Marder 3 with 138 mm APHE or 182 mm AP both begin at 2.3.
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–those could make 2.3 lineup together with normal and premium chi-he or possibly with some new tanks suggested up here - (Type 5 To-Ku, Type 5 Ke-Ho)

-Chi-Nu 1 from 3.3 to least 3.0 or even 2.7 at its br it faces early T-34, KV-1s, Shermans and long 75 mm Panzer 4s and is outclasses in every way. I cant really even think of some advantage other than things like depression for russians, but thats just common sense. Its really equal to german 2.7 br panzer 3 j1, but nowere close to anything at its own br.
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-same thing with Na-To 3.3 to 3.0 - its thats just overall not very good tank destroyer and shells bounce absurdly a lot ever since volumetrics- and this way it could at least make line up with So-Ki and chi-nu 1

-Chi-nu 2 from 4.3 to 3.7 or at least 4.0 as again its just glorified Panzer IV with long 75mm while begin pretty much worse in everything but slightly the gun. Even tho its premium. other post discussed this already so imma just leave link here: The BR of Chi-Nu II should be lowered to 4.0

-Chi-Tos should go back to 4.3 really. Its again just slightly better gun long 75mm Panzer IV with bit more armour than Chi-Nu 1 and 2 but still no were near to stop anything at 4.7 and some lower br Panzer IVs have a lot more armour too.
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-Chi-ri 2 from 5.0 to 4.7 - its really just a huge target size of Tiger 2 with non existing armour and ammo all over with terrible turret reverse. Not really comparable to panthers or T-34s at its br. Only good thing about it is the autoloader that has 3.7sec load for 3 belt like fed rounds but after you shoot those reload is like 10-11 sec when I tested or you just have to hide in cover for the belt to reload again. Tho it lacks penetration at its Br or uptier and bounce a lot even there where it should pen ever since volumetrics. Overall very situational tank. + chi-ri 1 (basically chi-ri hull with Chi-to turret) could be added at 4.3 with the chi-tos.

-Japanese tiger (heavy tank no. 6) - basically worst of the 6.0 tigers begin closer in armour and lack of top MG to 5.7 tigers. In my opinion all tigers should just go at 5.7 tho. As things like porsche tiger with 200mm front armour exist - that deserve 6.0 but not normal tigers.

Ho-ri prototype and production - also does not deserve their br at all. They are both worse than Jagdtiger in max speed, armour, reverse speed, gun penetration with only + side begin better engine to weight ratio making Ho-Ri more responsive. But thats not really valid reason for Ho-Ri production to be 7.3 and Jagtiger begin 6.7. Should be at least the same and Ho-Ri prototype should be at 6.3 or 6.0.
Ho-ri prototype 6.7 br vs Jagtiger 6.7 br:
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Ho-ri production 7.3 br vs Jagtiger 6.7 br:
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There were also multiple discussions on Ho-Ri so I will mention those too :
: The Ho-ri Prototype and Production BR
Ho-Ri Prototype and Production

Then I am glad O-I passed suggestion so thats something : Japan's phantom multi-turret heavy tank Oi vehicle

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Good Lord Where To Start.

While I Won’t Deny That Japan Could Enjoy More Early Tier Freedom With More Unique Vehicles, And A Starter Premium That Isn’t The Ha-Go, Camo’s Are Kinda Minute Point Though Appreciated, All The BR Related “Complaints” Are Over Exaggerated.

Let’s Start With Saying,

  • Japan Main By Heart, And I Want To Share My Love For Japanese Vehicles With Other Japan Mains
    • I Still Remember Very Vividly How It Was To Play Japan As A New Player At Tier 1 (Granted APHE Had Higher Pen Back Then But Other Than The 37 mm, It’s Still About Equal Effectiveness)
  • I’m Not Gonna Bring Up My Own KDs Or Check Yours - Just Approaching The Vehicles For Their Own Values
  • I’ve Been Playing This Game For 12k Hours
  • I Would NEVER Want To Redo France Tier I And Rather Be Eternally Stuck With Tier I Japan. Though In General I’d Still Put Japan Above Both Italy & France, Potentially Even UK Depending On How You Play It, The Only Thing That Drags These Nations Through In Early Mid Tier Is Their Reliance On Lend-Lease Vehicles, And Unlike Japan Genuinely Lack Proper CAS Aircraft At These Ranges (France Worse Than Italy).

  1. Japanese APHE Isn’t Just Penetration, Or For That Matter APHE In General, The TNTe That Japanese Shells Offer Over Contemporaries Is Far Superior Giving A Higher Oneshot Capability, How You Compare A Chi-Ha Long Gun, A 120 mm Gun Over A ZiS-30 57 mm High Velocity Gun Is Beyond Me.

  2. Japanese CAS. Have You Ever, Ever Considered Using Something That Isn’t An 800 kg Bomb?

    • B5N/B6N (All) | 1.3 - 2.3
      • 6 Guarantee Kills If You Know How To Fly
    • B7A (All) | 3.7
      • Blessed By The Emperor Himself, Offering 10 Guarantee Kills + 20 mm’s That Can Double As An Attacker For Aerial & Ground Targets, Ranging From No-Armour To Mid Armoured Roofs
    • Don’t Even Get Me Started On Fighters, Army Fighters Have Full AP-Belt 20 mm, Navy Has Very Competent AP-I Belts That Work Wonders On Tank Roofs And Most If Not All Fighters Have A Minimum Of 2 Bombs, Minimum Of 60 kg Up To 250 kg

  3. BR Changes In General, While It Would Be Funny Seeing Certain Vehicles Lower, I Can’t Have It Over My Conscious Mind That They Should Be Undertiered Either. While I Agree Certain BRs & Comparisons Are Overtiered, They Hold Up Far Better Than You Give Credit For.

    • I Have A Dedicated 6.0 Line-Up For The Tiger, Sure It Gets Only Backed Up By The M4A3, M36, SUB, J7W, N1K2-Ja, B7A2 But I Don’t Really Need More Than Tiger + B7A2 & Fighter. - I Average Prob 12 Kills A Match With This Line-Up, If Not More. The Tiger Has The Annoying Mine-Launchers On The Optimal Angles, But That Doesn’t Stop It From Being A TIGER I, It’s An Amazing Vehicle, That Murders Pretty Much Anything It Sees And With Some Fighting Against The Mine-Launcher, Is Still Very Capable Of Outangling Shells. Also, Who Even Unironically Needs An 7.92 Pintle Mount MG, It’s So Situational On The Tiger E, I Don’t Even See The Purpose Of Bringing It Up. - Also Tiger (P) With 200 mm Armour Comes With Pre-Angled Hull Corners (Garbage) And Early Cupola (Garbage), I’d Rather Use The Tiger E With Potentially Higher Overall Survivability Than A 1 Trick Frontal Pony.

    • The Chi-Ri I’ve Played In Every Single Patch Since Its Release And I Still Love It, And Can Assure You That It’s Still A Capable Vehicle, It Isn’t “Just Situational” And Even At 5.0 Carries Its Weight, If You Know Where To Shoot A Tank, No Tank Is Safe From The Chi-Ri Frontally At Its Tier, With Perhaps The Jumbo Being A Nuisance.

    • While I Want To See The Ho-Ri’s Lower As There’s So Many Counters To Them, They Still Hold Up Fairly Well, I’d Rather Use A Semi-Fast 105 mm With Solid Penetration Than An Overcompensating 128 mm That Fires Once A Minute That Does Pretty Much The Same Damage, Let Alone Forward Mobility And Depression Is Far Better.

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Well, the difference in killing potential isn’t that big at that br. However, the Zis-30 is faster, considerably smaller, and has a better reload and more shells. I very rarely not kill an enemy in the Zis-30 thanks to the extra damage that Russian/soviet shells do in general.

The Chi-Ha Long Gun is a lot of fun and very satisfying to use but it is clearly inferior to something like the Zis-30. Though primarily because the Zis-30 is essentially a 4.7 tank at 2.3 because it is Russian.

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Never said a word about “japanese desert camo” I said that japanese jungle multi color camos should be free given it was basically the moust common type of camo on japanese tanks or that new types of historicall japanese camos that are not yet in game (and there are many) should be added. While in comparsion americans never really mass used multi color camo in ww2 over just single color with huge white starts so they dont get bombed by their own planes.

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Nah there’s a night and day difference.

The Chi-Ha Long Gun overpressures so it’s a guaranteed kill, regardless where the round penetrates.
It can also kill open top vehicles because of that.

It can traverse the gun in a 120° arc compared to the ZIS-30 which only has 60°, meaning that the Chi-Ha LG can actually drive out of cover with the gun already pointed at an enemy.

Traverse speed is 10°/s for the LG vs. 7° for the ZIS-30.
Not to mention it’s taller and has -10° gun depression so you can actually use terraine or obstacles as cover to shoot from a hull down position.

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Let me preface this by saying I love the Japanese tree – it may be my favourite or 2nd favourite ground nation. I have it to 9.3 rn. This post has quite a bit wrong with it though, especially regarding BRs.

I agree.

I agree. No complaints here.

Agree.

Don’t use CAS so can’t comment.

Chi-Ha Kai and Chi-He are perfectly fine at 2.3 and 2.7. They don’t need to be changed.

It’s not just planes – tank MGs can and will devastate the Ho-Ni I, and that can’t happen with the Ho-Ni III.

It’s a big derp gun. It doesn’t struggle at all. Doesn’t need to change.

The issue here isn’t that the Chi-Nu is too high, it’s that the Panzer IVs are too low. The Panzer IV G/H could easily go to 4.0-4.3. The Chi-Nu is fine at 3.3, but maybe 3.0 would work. 2.7 is too low.

Again, no. The Panzer IVs should be raised in BR. The Chi-Nu II is an excellent tank at 4.3, probably my favourite Japanese tank until the 6.7 lineup. It works in uptiers perfectly fine, and honestly, I sometimes prefer it over the Chi-To’s. 3.7 would be broken, like it was before.

4.7 is fine. They can take a little getting used to but they are good tanks that you can have a lot of fun with. Their armour can actually bounce quite a bit, provided you angle.

Tbh I don’t disagree that the Chi-Ri could theoretically go down. I don’t like it, but that could be an individual thing. I know some people love it.

No. We don’t need the Tigers downtiered again. 5.7 and 6.0 is still great for them, they are very fun vehicles.

The Ho-Ri Production is an insanely good tank in the right hands. I have got multiple nukes back to back in it. In a downtier it absolutely shreds anything and everything. You can’t compare it to the Jagdtiger, they have completely different playstyles.

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Starter premium isnt the ha-go commander (i also thought so). Game does not even let you start with japan ground if you havent noticed. This whole might feel Overexaggerated but it isnt. Just look at the stats of those compared vehicles. I am not saying you cant get a good games with it and that good players cant have average 12 kill a game like you said but that is not an average game for average players. All those cases are (lets say chi-nu and t-34) that japanese tank can penetate only few places from front while the given enemy can penetrate japanese tank anywere and that is not and never will be a fair match.

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Well I thought you had a practical game benefit point and not just asking for cosmetic eye candy. There are a selection of free skins on the WT live site.

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Thats cool and all. Other ppl cant really see those camos unless they get officially added to the game. Those are basically just for your own look. Kinda like a texture pack.

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Who Said I Was Fine With Problem Just Because I Have 10k Hours? It Was Merely To Reinforce My Statements On What Was Complained In This Thread.

What Japanese Prop Is 7.7? And For That Matter, What Prop Is Higher Than 7.0 In RB?

  • 87RCV (P) I Second, It’s Just A Better SUB-II-2 At A Far Too High BR For Its Own Good.

  • 87RCV With APDSFS Is No Joke, 9.0 Sure Is On The High Side, But Very Workable Still (Though At Stock It’s Uh, Something Else.)

  • 89IFV In Its Current State Is A Bit Sad At 9.0 But Again, Not Unusable

  • 74MBT

    • Honestly The Thermal On The (G) Isn’t That Huge, Atleast Not Personally Worth The Step-Up To 9.3 Unless You Line It Up With The 93SAM & 16MCV (P).
    • Problem With The (G) Model Is Also Kinda The Fact It Was A Short Lived Upgrade Plan.

  • 16MCV FPS How Is It Pay To Win? Lacks Type 93 Sitting At A Iffy 9.3 BR, It’s A Solid Vehicle For The BR, But Have You Seen What Competition There Is For 9.0-10.0 Premiums?

  • R2Y2 I Completely Agree With, It Got A Double Nerf, And Being Thrown Up To 8.0 Is Lowkey Insane.

  • Ki-200 Worked* At 8.7, But With The Revised Belts For Army & Navy 30s, Army 30s Got The Short End Of The Stick, Low Velocity, HE Is Limited To No Tracer And AP-T Does Pretty Much Nothing. Were The Ki-200 To Load Navy 30s, And Be Renamed To J8M1, I’d Fly It Any Time Of The Day At 8.7, No Complaints.

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It does not have to overpressure. Ofc if you penetrate something with it then it kills it with the TNT fillar but 103 mm penetration isnt a lot to penetrate a lot of things and it also bounces on lot off things with the new volumetrics.

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What do you expect?
They were not exactly known for having good tanks…
Just endure it and enjoy the silliness.
Gets pretty good once you get to 6.7 anyway.

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I belive Ki-84 with 30mms is 7.7 in arcade due to its guns that used to oneshot. Tho those guns were nerfed to oblivion and the br remained for no reason.

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What kind of point is that? The game is suposed to be balanced. If it was the way you think there would be maus shooting M4s ??

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Agreed. Ki-200 was such high br only because of its guns. But now the japanese 30mms cant oneshot, are slow and inaccurate but every japanese plane that have them and was overtiered because of them is still overtiered with useless guns now. R2Y2, kikka, Ki-84, Raiden with 30mms. All the same story.

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Well, Japan Had Olive Yellow Camo, Pretty Sandy & Stand-In For “Desert”.

There’s Like Several Japanese Camos Since The Addition Of Japan Floating Around In The CDK, Without A Trace Of Them To Current Day Sadly.

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87RCV With APDSFS Is No Joke, 9.0 Sure Is On The High Side, But Very Workable Still

Anything can be considered workable if you have to rely on side penetration, having a light vehicle without thermals, without a stabilizer, without ATGMs and without anything special at 9.0 is insane when you look at what else is available at 9.0 in other nations.

89IFV In Its Current State Is A Bit Sad At 9.0 But Again, Not Unusable

I still don’t think ‘not unusable’ is what the goal should be.

Honestly The Thermal On The (G) Isn’t That Huge, Atleast Not Personally Worth The Step-Up To 9.3

Yet you have to since the only premiums are 9.3, which means you either uptier the rest of your lineup or you become part of the ODL playerbase that Gaijin is cultivating.

Only now can you get the Type 90 but that is also isn’t without it’s issues.

16MCV FPS How Is It Pay To Win?

Because it’s an upgraded version of the TT Type 16 at the same BR.

Ki-200 Worked* At 8.7

It only works is others are incompetent, the same way the Zero’s work, despite being unable to keep up with heavy bombers at it’s current BR, the moment someone doesn’t turn fight you cannot do anything.

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I dont think Ki-200 ever worked well enough at 8.7 even with the oneshoting guns as ppl can just play it safe and never let you get close until you run out of fuel. You could get a few kills but only at those player that did not pay attention or does not know the plane as everything can just run away. But now that not even the guns work its basically useless. Tho lets talk tanks here.

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The FPS and Type 16 (P) are the exact same other than the turret shape.

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I wouldn’t say I agree with all the points given here (namely some of the BR things), but this is just silly.

First off “Not having good tanks” is relative. The comparison often made today is “Haha, Ha-Go worse than Sherman”, which doesn’t take into account that it’s pitting up a 1935 tank with one from 1940. Try putting it up against tanks of the same age and it’ll start so seem pretty average, and that for a nation that had just recently began developing tanks at the time. Japanese tanks weren’t a priority for them, and certainly not the best, but calling them bad is disrespectful towards not only their designers, but also any soldiers that lost their lives to them during the second world war.

And secondly, the BR system is there to make no tank good or bad, but put them up against equally effective foes. Even if you take a “bad” tank, it can just as easily put up against older vehicles. I don’t exactly agree with all of the proposed BR changes, but if a vehicle is objectively worse than others at the same BR, it goes down, if it’s better, it goes up. With this system there can’t ever be good or bad tanks in the context of this game.