Gaijin. Update Sim EC

[RunaDacino]

@CorporalApollo-psn

All I can say to the people complaining about the earnings is this;
Be careful what you wish for.

My main wish is to adjust the ratio of spawn cost to useful action so that 1 full UA cycle always covers 2 respawns, letting you maintain positive SL income with reasonable gameplay.

At rank 3 props, this system exists. If I go down in my F4U-4, spitfires, bf109s and so forth before 15 minutes pass and I consequently can’t land, I’ll have likely made enough SL just doing my best to cover my first respawn and maybe some more. I pay 3-5k to spawn, and make ~10K if I land in a bf109F4 (used as I got screenshot). If I die 5 minutes in with my Bf109F4, I make 2200 SL. If I die 10 minutes in, I make 4.3k. I can still lose SL, but it takes effort or being spawncamped to do so.

With rank 4 props, it starts to break down - Spit f16e costs 11K SL, while earning a potential of ~16K if you survive and land. Still tenable, but you no longer have the case of 1 full cycle covering 2 respawns.

Then we reach rank V jets and… look at the F80C and…
Maximum reward: 19 734
Cost to spawn: 18094.

Most SL you make in your first cycle after spawning is less than 2000 with 1050 score and RTBing to land. You must survive a full 30 minutes, earn 1050 score each cycle and land both times to earn enough silver lions to respawn with a small change (36K total spawn cost vs 39.4k total income).

This needs fixing, as early jets have as a consequence became a bracket only bombers really seem to play despite all the cool and wacky designs like the Horten.

Funnily, once you graduate to rank 6 jets?
Take off with F8U2, get 2 kills and die 9 minutes in: 900 score so ~91% reward, 9 minutes alive, didn’t land (80% of 91%) : 9x0.91x0.8x1600 = 10483.2 SL.
Well, you paid 11078 SL just to spawn for the first time. You still lose money, but only barely

9 minutes of being alive lets you break even per spawn almost.

[Morvran]

I think the first step is to jsut get rid of the initial spawn cost. Starting the match in debt sucks more than anything else. Meaning your first life is intially spent just returning to 0, not banking SLs for your next respawn.

But yes, after that, a healthy reduction to spawn costs would be ideal.

[fakedukekan]

@Morvran_

I think the first step is to jsut get rid of the initial spawn cost

Maybe the first step is to show an ACTUAL count of players in the room before joining it. I see 10 vs 10 in the list of players in preview, I log in and see 3 vs 1. I take off, and the last guy from the enemy team leaves the game. From now on, the countdown starts, and you can only hope to bomb a single base to get at least something from this room.

[Morvran]

Yeah, though that is a trait of the “join and leave at will” nature of the gamemode. Probably could do with refinements, but there is a limit I think on what can or cannot be displayed in that regard

[LeoNerdo]

Yes, but in the form of refunding the SL when you leave the match.
Otherwise players will just leave after one death and start thousands of new lobbies for the free spawn.

This would result in a large amount of ghost lobbies and you will never find a full game again to play for more than 10 min.

@CorporalApollo-psn

Be careful what you wish for.

[RunaDacino]

This is why I’ve made this suggestion:

Air Simulator "Deathbanks" from Excess Useful Actions for Respawning Without Paying SL

DEATH BANKS Originally, I thought “What if score rolled over between useful action cycles?” but that’s clearly abusable and would just solve the issue of “People leave lobbies” as getting the full reward requires sitting out multiple UA cycles until the roll-over runs out. Still, this is one of the biggest issues: It takes 30 minutes of very anti-fun flying that hurts both the player and their opponent’s experience and it’d solve that quite well. How can we avoid it being abused? It’s simple…

I’ve since thought of a better implementation - just flat out give “silver lions” for every action taken whether excess or not. However, these “silver lions” go into a secondary purse like spawn points and are used first to pay for respawns before your actual earnings from useful actions.

Even if you make a million “deathbank” silver lions, you’ll not get to take it from the match only those earned with UA. However, if you get a million “deathbank” silver lions, it means you can respawn with impunity in that lobby and (potentialy) earn as much SL as if you lobby shopped/rigged and just afk bombed instead.

My initial idea was that you can only earn deathbank for actions in excess of 1050, but that’s mostly done in hopes of getting the idea in the door for gaijin as it makes it less universally applicable.

[vitour]

@GALWAYLION

Get rid of “Useful Actions”,

I agree on this one, useful actions are trash and lead to this:

@Ninjato70x7

PVE players ruin the game economy by exploiting, botting,

I dont think anything bad about thise who bomb bases I wanted to grinde too back then, but I do hate those who kill them selfs just to bomb ennemy airfield. That sucide is what makes me angry. You can bomb anything even the airfields, as long as you dont go there just so you can die.

In the end, everyone on the forum would admit, that putting normal rewarding, as is in realistic battles, into the airsim would make the game more playable.

[fakedukekan]

Yeah, your screenshot shows the current state of EC economy. I earn SL In RB ground battles in order to be able to play air EC. Note, that I have premium and prem planes and still struggle to raise my silver bank. Even if I am not a great player, it shouldn’t be that bad

[Schindibee]

@CorporalApollo-psn

you can choose the weather

Wait… what?

@fakedukekan

Note, that I have premium and prem planes and still struggle to raise my silver bank

Very surprised by that. I play Sim EC almost exclusively and usually constantly earn quite well.

[vitour]

@Schindibee

Very surprised by that. I play Sim EC almost exclusively and usually constantly earn quite well.

Its about the gameplay, you can bomb bases or airfields and make some profit, but if you play fighter as i did on the screenshots, you can be the best of the best, but you still might get shot, and even thou I scored 5 kills, witch in RB would be about 60K SL, it didnt cover even the joining cost. I thought thay introduced useful action to solve bomber, but thay just punished fighters, just for playing the gamemod.

[KatukovM]

@vitour

I thought thay introduced useful action to solve bomber, but thay just punished fighters, just for playing the gamemod.

They introduced useful action to fight against twink account farmers, not to solve bombers “problem”.

[Morvran]

There is no difference.

I can take a Tornado Gr4, bomb a base and then survive for 15 minutes to get a reward or I can play the Tornado F3, get a kill or 2 and survive for 15 minutes and get the exact same reward.

The key is the survival part. In both instances, if I did the same thing but immediately died. I would get no reward. Fighters are not “punished”. Whilst fighters tend to be in “the thick of it” so to speak. They are generally balanced for the BR and so can defend themselves. “bombers” rarely can fight back adequately and are dependent on stealth more than anything else.

If you are getting 5 kills in a short time period, then clearly you know what you are doing, but just dont over extend. It isnt ARB where death has no consequences. SB is all about survival. Get a few kills, then rather than pushing your luck for a few more. RTB, reset and go again. Returning to base, landing, rearming and taking off and then traveling back into the fight is more than enough time get the full payout in anything but the fastest top tier jets.

[vitour]

Than, the best solution might be rewarding with landing.
You bomb, and than to get a reward you have to land on the base. Players have to do something, survive and that 15mins of waiting for reward is solved.

[Morvran]

The landing rewards could be increased further, but again, got to be careful with how they are increased further. Wouldnt want the exploit of take off, kill someone land get the full reward repeat. and the thing you are killing in a botter that is circling near an AF (it would 100% be done) (probably with VTOLs)

@vitour

You bomb, and than to get a reward you have to land on the base

“bombers” and “fighters” should be rewarded in the exact same way though. It would be unfair to expect relatively speaking, unarmed bombers to have to traverse from one side of the map to the other and back again to get any reward at all, but a fighter just has to stay alive for the same reward

[LeoNerdo]

Yes, but punishing death in a PVP game mode (fighter gameplay) so hard, cannot work.

To get two kills, two players have to die. Then you have to rtb, denying others their kill.
This whole system doesn’t sum up overall.

Getting killed is a part of the (pvp) gameplay and calculating rewards on the time alive only works for the upper class (best 10-20%) and also limits their income.

I absolutely see the point of exploitation and some players are very creative here.
But it can´t be the case that not so skilled players cannot even afford to play the game.

[Morvran]

Which is why I Want a hybrid system,. A best of both worlds

@Morvran_

• Remove initial spawn cost. That way, you dont start matches in debt.
• Provide partial, immediate rewards for certain actions (PvP kills, destroying a base, sinking naval targets, participating in objectives). The remaining reward would still come from activity time as it does currently, with other actions (damaging bases/AFs, killing AI vehicles, etc being fully activity time rewarded)
• Add Activity time over-capping. Past 100%, add a signficant amount of diminishing returns for gains, but allow for activity time (and thus rewards) to go above 100%
• Reduce the economy interval from being 15 minutes to 10 minutes and adjust the activity time reward accordingly
• Upon dying, give a partal payout of outstanding activity time (i.e, if you had earnt enough activity time that at the next 10/15 minute inveral you would have gotten 10k SL, you’ll get 5k upon death)
• increase the reward Landing gives based upon amount of activity time accrued

[RunaDacino]

@Morvran_

The key is the survival part. In both instances, if I did the same thing but immediately died. I would get no reward. Fighters are not “punished”. Whilst fighters tend to be in “the thick of it” so to speak. They are generally balanced for the BR and so can defend themselves. “bombers” rarely can fight back adequately and are dependent on stealth more than anything else.

Here’s a trick.

I’ve had a pretty good Mustang Mk Ia game a few days ago.

I’ve also had an A point spawn such a way that when I arrived there, and finally “killed” the enemy capping it (he crashed from pulling too hard and I got no credit as I was trying to get in gun range, no big deal - low level, was trying their best). I proceeded to spend the next few minutes painstakingly flipping the point from red to blue again.

A few seconds remained. Maybe just one. The whole ball was blue.“Air superiority point failed.”

Not long after with the amount of time I travelled, my previous UA cycle lining up just perfectly and the long time to solo capture the A point while everyone else was brawling over an arrow some 40 kilometers south…

zero reward.

Empty useful action cycle.

Nothing for a full 15 minutes of effortful gameplay because my opponent crashed before I opened fire and the objective expired by the time I landed to rearm, repair, take off and fly across the whole map to reach it - arriving in time to flip it from red to blue, but apparently that was too late and I should’ve just went to the tank battle as well.

I’ve had the same happen quite a few times when joining battles afresh - I fly over to a contested A point for a good 8 minutes and my team kills the enemy there and starts flipping it. I start flipping it as well and get zero reward as it expires promptly.

And for the thick of it -

Only way to really guarantee never dying is to be far better than the enemy (shop until you find a good lobby), fly only top-BR aircraft, kill 1 guy and immediately run away and afk above your airfield until the UA timer cycles.

Speaking of UA timer.

That mustang game I’ve also had a case where I landed like… 1 second before the the UA timer ticked over.

So I got an empty landing bonus, my full UA reward minus 20%.

My choice: Take off and land again for my 20% reward and ignore my team and objectives AND risk an empty UA cycle since my only source is enemy aircraft and air superiority points and it’s a big map…

Or take off and fly into the thick of it and risk losing 20% of my 92% of 2000 sl/min from the premium plane.

[Schindibee]

@vitour

Than, the best solution might be rewarding with landing.

Tricky, as you punish also players who do nothing wrong except to be bested by the adversary. So if you decrease the proportion of the rewards you get when you fulfill a battle action to instead increase the portion you get when you also manage to land, you punish the players - and where that line is can well decide if players want to bother with Sim or not…

I think other mechanics should be devised to address zombers and j-outers, e.g. via determining if a crash is self inflicted or from enemy actions. But even then , every system can be abused, but maybe it can be made more difficult.

[Morvran]

@RunaDacino

A few seconds remained. Maybe just one. The whole ball was blue.“Air superiority point failed.”

Not long after with the amount of time I travelled, my previous UA cycle lining up just perfectly and the long time to solo capture the A point while everyone else was brawling over an arrow some 40 kilometers south…

zero reward.

Empty useful action cycle.

Yeah, that entire objective needs an overhaul, how it gives rewards/activity time sucks and its not the only one. Attacking a carrier is much the same. High risk, low reward. But Id say that is a gamemode problem/how activity time is given out rather than an inherrent flaw with UA.

If that objective gave you your full activity time whilst within that zone, so all that time flying gave you max reward. it would be great. (the amount could vary depending on whether its contested or not as well) Even better if its in addition to your standard activity time.

[Morvran]

And even then. It would be impossible for an automated system to determine if a crash was intentional or accidental.

From lag spikes, to just mistakes. crashes happen. Heck, no one would ever risk trying to land on a carrier ever again.

Only system I can think of to deal with most zombers is to have the score (and only score, not activitiy time) from attacking an AF to be handed out after 3 minutes. If you die within that 3 minutes, no reward. Its just enough to deal with most Zombers but not enough to actively punish anyone.