G3 Class Battlecruiser: 'The British Behemoth'

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes

  • No

0 voters

The story behind Britain's 'G3' class battlecruisers - Navy General Board artist impression of what the G3 would have looked like

g3 class battleship

About the suggestion:

The gun the BL 16-inch MK.1 was ordered and began construction before the cancellation of the ship. It would go on to be sheared down and repurposed for the Nelson class Battleships. Furthermore, the keel blocks were worked upon by the John Brown shipyards as well as the hull plates demonstrating the keels were starting to be laid. There is the assertion by several naval historians that the G3’s were laid down. Finally the premise that it was laid down is the entire reason ships like the Lexington class were not finished. Both the US and Japanese governments were satisfied that it was laid down which is why they cancelled their respective projects.

Background

Spoiler

The G-3 Class Battlecruisers were a planned class of 4 Battlecruisers for the Royal Navy in addition to their Half-sister ships the N-3 Class Battleships which were planned to equip the Royal Navy with the premier force of capital ships in the world. Whilst development of the N-3 would be discontinued in the light of the coming naval treaty and economic decline faced by post-war Britain the G-3 development plowed forwards up until their cancellation following the Washington Naval Treaty.

The G-3’s were a response to the aggressive shipbuilding of the US and Japan post-WW1. The US had expressed a desire for naval dominance and the Japanese a complete monopoly over the Pacific theatre should a war break out. Britain, saw these proposals, and decided to come up with a class of ship that blew them out of the water. This would be the G-3.

The ships were to be ordered in a similar manor to Japans eight-eight fleet, but this time of a ‘four-four’ construction, with 4, 18-inch armed Battleships (the N-3) and 4, 16-inch armed Battlecruisers (the G-3). They featured all the teachings of the War and refined British naval strategy. They further were in philosophy a similar design to Yamato in that one ship of either G or N-3 should have been able to battle several peer rivals with overwhelming force. Had they been constructed they would have been similarly comparable to Iowa, though naturally older.

The G-3 faced months of opposition from the Cabinet and Treasury once the design had been finished whilst the Admiralty and notably Winston Churchill pushed forwards as supporters of the class. These ships were to thwart the US plan of building a Navy ‘second to none’ and to reinforce Britain’s place as the world’s premier naval force at the time. The G-3 alone would have been the highest displacing Battlecruiser ever created and would have been more or less equivalent to an Iowa class Battleship, just 20 years younger. Equally G-3 would’ve been faster than any capital ship but Iowa due to her transom stern which became commonplace post-WW2 due to its speed characteristics.

The design was significantly ahead of its time using even an exemplary AA compliment for a design so close to WW1 and would be revised into the Nelson class which was much lighter and slower than the G-3’s.

G3 battlecruiser - Wikipedia

Specifications

Type: Battlecruiser (Fast Battleship)

Displacement:

48,400 long-tons (Standard)

53.909 long-tons (Deep Load)

Length: 856ft (260.9 m)

Beam: 106ft (32.3)

Draught: 35ft 8in (Deep Load)

Installed power: 160,000shp (120,000kW)

Propulsion: 4 shafts; 4 geared steam turbines

Speed: 32-32.5 knots

Range: 7,000 nautical miles at 16 knots

Crew complement: 1,716

Armament:

  • 3 × triple 16 in (406 mm) guns

  • 8 × twin 6 in (152 mm) guns

  • 6 × single 4.7-inch (120 mm)

  • 4 × 8-barrel 2-pdr (40 mm (1.6 in)) mountings

  • 2 × 24.5-inch (622 mm) torpedo tubes

Armour:

  • Belt: 12–14 in (305–356 mm)

  • Deck: 3–8 in (76–203 mm)

  • Barbettes: 11–14 in (279–356 mm)

  • Turrets: 8–17.5 in (203–444 mm)

  • Conning tower: 8 in (203 mm)

  • Bulkheads: 10–12 in (254–305 mm)

G3" project battlecruisers (4)

G3 Battle Cruiser and N3 Battleship | Secret Projects Forum

Construction

Spoiler

There are no photographic primary sources showing the class was laid down such as pictures due to the age of the class, furthermore as they were cancelled, there is even less room for proof of construction. Many tertiary sources repeat the wikipedia assertion (which needs citation) stating that the class was never laid down. However based on an understanding of the political climate just weeks before the Washington Naval Treaty and the imperial treasury, there is evidence to suggest it was in fact laid down.

The G-3 class faced opposition post war as the admiralty had their budget more than halved and the treasury urged them to cut down the capital ship numbers in addition to forbidding the construction (but not development) of any new capital ships. Skipping forward a lot of bureaucracy the rumour that there was a disarmament preposition coming up began to come up following the US’ hard plunge into the depression. This was the Washington Naval Treaty.

The only problem facing the UK with this much revered economic break was the current US and Japanese ships under construction would outclass pretty much anything the Royal Navy fielded outside the Hood. To ensure that these ships would be scrapped and discontinued the G-3 class was retrieved from the backburner to either provide so much of a shock that the nations would be forced to sign the treaty or have to scrap their entire capital ship fleet, or to provide the British with ships to effectively counter these new fleets. Using Admiralty and Imperial funds to finance the ship, the process was rushed just weeks before the Washington Naval Treaty with funds being pulled by the Admiralty and the contract for the ordering of the class of 4 G-3 class Battlecruisers was signed.

There is strong evidence to suggest it was laid down however, firstly that the G-3 class was included in the 1921 Naval Budget and unlike US procurement, ships were purchased and generally considered done-deals. Furthermore the money was indeed pulled, an amount of 2.2 million pounds from the Imperial Dominions and further £15 million from the admiralty itself. Contracts were awarded to the shipyards of John Brown, Swan Hunter and Fairfield on 24 October, and William Beardmore & Co on 1 November. The talks of the Disarmament Treaty began on the 12th of November. Work at John Brown is confirmed to have been done on the keel blocks specifically for this ship class.

The started construction of the G-3’s is in essence what prevented the Japanese Amagi, NO.13-16 and Tosa class ships, as well as the American Lexington, South Dakota and Colorado class ships from being constructed.

Work on the turrets of these ships was started, with them being re-purposed onto Nelson and Rodney, of which the design was only revised after the signing of the treaty. Notice of their eventual suspension also exists.

Given the fact that funds were allocated, materials for the keels purchased, the ships appeared in the defense review and both the US and Japan were satisfied that the ships had in fact been laid down (at least one of them anyway), and given the lack of any primary or secondary sources which say otherwise, I’d say the strongest source is this one: The story behind Britain’s ‘G3’ class battlecruisers - Navy General Board which suggests they were in fact laid down.

And to finally add onto that the Official Battleship New Jersey youtube channel refers to the ships as ‘hardly even laid down’, Drachinfel refers similarly, and Dr Alexander Clarke also refers to them as being laid down.

Sources:

Spoiler

The story behind Britain’s ‘G3’ class battlecruisers - Navy General Board

G3 battlecruiser - Wikipedia

"G3" project battlecruisers (4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT4e-E2CGmE&ab_channel=DrAlexanderClarke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpgr0fDVyhI&t=406s&ab_channel=Drachinifel

Washington Cherry Trees II./ Part 3 – Warship Projects 1900-1950

History and Technology - The British 16" Mark I Gun and Mounting - NavWeaps

5 Likes

Real interesting especially the layout.
I could def see it being added but not as TT.
Event , prem or BP vehicle is where it should go whenever the Yamato class starts being added to Japan.

1 Like

For me it would depend on what other trees got.

Other trees have project ships and unless they added a late model lion class (which were finished designs but not laid down) this is the only post war ship Britain has free of Treaty restrictions aside from Hood.

KGV was a Treaty BB, the Lions were slightly scaled up KGV’s and Vanguard was then a scaled down Lion.

There is the arguement for late war Lions however as prototype guns were mads for them but they aren’t required anytime near now given we have had hood scharn and kron for the best part of 2 years.

I like this a lot! The layout is really interesting. I’ve never really seen the British try a “main gun forward” design - that’s usually a French thing. It would really force a different play style, as your rear is only covered by secondaries (though you have a lot of them). I say +1 to this, as we’ve already established that incomplete ships can be added to the game.

1 Like

+1

1 Like

I’m glad you like it

We tend to think of it as a French thing but this ship (the G3 and N3) were the first to pioneer the design. But France made the most use of it. Britain would go back to more traditional designs with the KGV.

Particularly for the G3 as it meant you could better armour vital areas of the ship such as the main battery and citadel, whilst leaving the machinery a lot less armoured and saving weight. As you can see G3 is a huge ship in her own right so to armour the entire length of the hull at 14 inches would be an astronomical weight for a WW1 ship.

The Nelson was the first actual ship in service worldwide with such a design as Nelson was very much a G3 class battleship with less machinery to save weight.

Yep British doctrine was that if you were fighting with your back turned needing rearward firing turrets then you’d done something seriously wrong. For ships like the G3 your guns and armour are concentrated forwards so you should really be angled. Historically she would also have taken the advantage of being one of the fastest capital ships ever built.

1 Like

The AA armament also is only covering the rear, so it further changes how the ship is played. There are a LOT of 40mm guns, but they are concentrated towards the aft end of the ship, and the 120mm guns are unlikely to be as dangerous.

1 Like

Yep the main concentration is in the rear with the 40MM’s and the 4.7" guns too. The 6-inch Mk.22’s could engage aircraft and were designated dual purpose guns but thats if Gaijin gave it the HE-TF shells used on Nelson.

Although as the rear superstructure is raised the only true blindspot would be directly frontal which would definitely be something G3 Captains will need to keep an eye out for.

1 Like

I do wonder how effective the 120mm guns will be against air targets in War Thunder. They are designed to be AA guns IRL, but in WT the best air defense is autocannons. Single shot guns are much less effective without HE-TF or HE-VT shells.

The 120mm’s can make 12 rounds per minute which is one every 5 seconds so not particularly fast and I’m still not sure about what shells they would get. Unfortunately all the data on the AA rounds is for HE and that lumps in HE-VF, HE-TF, HE-VT etcetera. Now I know it wouldn’t have proximity fuses, I also know the shells were filled with a lot of explosive filler but there’s no hard data on which shell that I have found.

I doubt the 120mm’s actually prove to be useful, the ship will do a lot better keeping to ship vs ship combat where she will be one of the better ships in the game. With another Battlecruiser or late-war BB near her though she should be fine.

1 Like

+1, If Naval is going to stay interesting at the BB tiers then we need ships like this!

This and Lion would be really great additions for Naval top tier when we get to that point

1 Like

The 120mm guns will at least prove devastating to any torpedo boats or light frigates which come too close!

1 Like

so… show them, please.

Making such a statement around a thing surrounded by so much controversy is… rather bold move without following through.

Ive messaged a suggestion mod, that was a typo, i cannot edit that.

If you read that in context its somewhat evident it is out of place.

Fixed!
Thanks to Headnaught.

I wondered why the calibre of the G3’s was 16" when the British usually went up in 1,5" increments. So I asked around and did some research over the past few months.

It turns out according to books, the final plans before the WNT and also British Naval Historian Dr Alexander Clarke, that the G3’s originally had 16.5" guns as can be seen in the finalised plans below.

Image

From asking around it seems the plans were finalised and then frozen in light of the WNT, then to attempt to meet a displacement limit which the UK had originally argued for their guns were modified into 16" guns with a revised and incorrect design philosophy as would be used on the Nelson’s arising from the armour trials with Baden, the report which would only effect the guns on Nelson and Rodney who’s guns were finalised in 1922. This was after construction of individual components such as the autoloaders and secondary battery had already begun for use on G 3

image
This excerpt discusses further reductions in calibre again note the word ‘saving’ which implies an already in current process.

There is a real and capable argument that this 16.5" arrangement should be the configuration G 3 is represented in my opinion, shell data is as follows: these shells are effectively Greenboy shells but scaled up (so 6crh after this was also implemented): 16.5” L/45 – shell 2552 lbs. RoF was to be 2 rpm, this was intended to be the same on the Nelsons but as the autoloaders had been redesigned and more importantly lightened the mechanisms were not as strong and the shells did not fit the same way the 16.5" shells were envisaged to.

The ship would have 180,000 shaft hp for 33 knots and an 8-9" deck, with a belt slope of 25 degrees compared to the reduced designs 160,000 shaft hp for 32-32.5 knots, 18 degrees angled belt and 4-8 inch deck. Same secondary armament including AA as my post says further up.

I would put it to a vote, in my opinion the ‘final’ pre-Washington configuration is what we should get, as this is fully free of treaty influence.

Which configuration do you believe G3 should be represented as.

  • 16.5" configuration
  • 16" configuration
0 voters

A +1 from me would be neat to see the G3s implemented. Ditto with the N3

1 Like

Introduction and Motivation

Hello everyone. This suggestion is going to break down the story and development process of what is oficially known as G3 Batllecruiser and N3 Battleship designs (both are mentioned here as they’re essentially the same project with differences in armament, protection and propulsion).

Note from myself: Ar first I wanted to post this as a separate suggestion but I had troubles in doing so, most likely becouse this suggestion already exists and moderators won’t approve this. Thus I will upload it here. Enjoy my work!

The main motivation behind this post is to counter balance recently added IJN Amagi and, with very high chances of being added in the future, USS Lexington/Saratoga.

All ships mentioned above have one thing in common, Washington Naval Treaty. A document which had been signed by all major maritime powers of the era back in 6th of February in 1922 and coused a halt in further development of these mighty floating beasts, or at very least froced navies to repurpose them.

For further information on WNT visit this page: Washington Naval Treaty - Wikipedia

The G3 and N3 Genesis

The development proces started after the end of I World War (also referred as The Great War) in order to catch up with other nations alarming arming up of their nations navies, combined with, although rather large fleet, outdated in comparison Royal Navy, lacking speed, armour and firepower.

From left:

  • Section 1 shows already existing highest level vessels as of 1920 in RN arsenal, with HMS Hood being the mightiest.
  • Section 2 and 3 shows USN and IJN future prospects, with Colorado Class and Nagato Class being already in drydocks and others being in advanced stages of development. All these concepts main armament was exceeding 400mm in caliber (Number 13’s design even reaching calibers as high as 480mm), whilist RN’s highest available caliber was just 381mm
  • Section 4 depicts the final state of countermeasures taken against rival navies dated to November 1921: G3 Batllecruiser and N3 Battleship

The development process started in June 1920 as a mix between battlecruiser and battleship principles (something you can call an early design of Fast Battleship) but got split into two separate projects n October 1920. Project had many iterations with multiple desginations, such as L, M, N, H, G and so on. Designs G3 and N3 had been ultimately picked in 12 August 1921 and but only four G3 got ordered by Admirality in 24th October 1921.

Top view of various development stages shown next to each other, the far right shows G3 and N3

Technical Description of G3

Armour and Layout

The main aspects of these designs was an “All or nothing” armour scheme, which would be the first ever introduced in a British vessel, and first to be a so called “Post Jutland” design. In case of G3 the armour would look like this:

  • Belt - 12"–14" (305–356 mm)
  • Deck - 3"–8" (76–203 mm)
  • Barbettes - 11"–14" (279–356 mm)
  • Turrets - 8"–17.5" (203–444 mm)
  • Conning tower - 8" (203 mm)
  • Bulkheads - 10"–12" (254–305 mm)

Visualization of armour layout made by Maciej Chodnicki, it’s as detailed as it can get with available descriptions of the project. Translations of words used in the picture:

  • Pokład - Deck
  • Maszynownia - Engine room
  • Kotłownia - Boiler room
  • Paliwo Fuel
  • Ładunek miotający - Propellant charge
  • Wyrzutnia torped - Torpedo launcher
  • Przekrój - Cross section

Propulsion, Performance and Statistics

1921-6

1921-9

1921-5

1921-2

Original sketches uproved by Admirality in 12 August 1921

Performance may differ depending on source and understanding. The power of the vessel vary between 160kHP and 180kHP coming from 20 Yarrow small-tube boilers with working pressure of 200 psi. All that power would be transfered to 4 GS shaft turbines to produce speed up to 32 knots (About 59 km/h or 37 mp/h). With a displacement of 48400-49500 metric tons (deep load of about 54000 metric tons) this would be an absolute beast of the Atlantic Ocean.

Dimensions:

  • Lenght - 261m
  • Max. beam - 32.3m
  • Drought - Between 10.2m and 10.9m

Armement

G3 would be the first ever British ship to be equipped with triple-mount main battery and gunnery of 406mm (16") in caliber, a direct response to Nagato’s Class 410mm and Colorado’s Class 406mm.
The whole ships arsenal consists of:

  • 3x Triple-mounted BL 16-inch Mark I
  • 8x Twin-mounted BL 6-inch Mk XXII naval gun
  • 6× Single QF 4.7-inch Mk VIII naval gun
  • 4x Octuply-mounted QF 2-pounder Mark II

image

BL 16-inch Mk I naval gun reused in a triple-mount on HMS Rodney, although visually identical to the original design, its armour is trimmed to meet WNT requirements

NOTE: BL 16-inch Mk I naval gun was specifically designed and manufactured for G3 Class Battlecruisers, tha same can be said about twin turrets with BL 6-inch Mk XXII naval guns shown later

image

A closer look on Twin-mounted BL 6-inch Mk XXII naval gun reused on HMS Nelson

image

Octuply-mounted QF 2-pounder Mark II of HMS Rodney. In the back you can see Twin-mounted BL 6-inch Mk XXII naval guns

image

Single QF 4.7-inch Mk VIII naval gun mounted on the HMS Rodney

General appearance and Depictions

me-24

me-1

me-4

me-37

me-53

Multiple shots of 1/96 scale replica depicting the general shape of the vessel upon construcion, you can clearly see the “bastion” and details such as main, secondary and AA armament

An artistic depiction of so called “HMS Invincible”. It is a “What-if” model of G3 Class Battlecruiser in what seems to be a refit inspired by HMS Nelsons
refit of 1941-1942. The name given is also inspired by the believe that G3 would become somewhat of a “Invincible II Class” and wear the names of the original Invincible Class Battlecruisers made in 1906 as tribute, it is not confirmed and backed ny any official sources though.

Production and cancellation

As I mentioned earlier in the post, four G3 got ordered by Admirality in 24th of October 1921.The order got distributed between few manufacturers, contractors being responsible for:

Hull and Machinery:

  • John Brown & Company (Sheffield and Clydebank) Limited
  • Swan Hunter & Wigham Richardson
  • William Beardmore and Company, Ltd. (with machinery sub-contracted out to Vickers)
  • Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Limited

Armament and fire-control systems:

  • Vickers
  • William Beardmore and Company, Ltd.
  • Elswick Ordnance Company

Following the visit of an Admiralty delegation, detailed constructional drawings were sent to John Brown & Company (Sheffield and Clydebank) Limited on 3 November with a request that copies be urgently circulated to the other successful contractors. Work at John Brown progressed on the keel blocks and hull plates for the subsequent two weeks. Notwithstanding other events, instructions and amendments continued to arrive from various departments within the Admiralty until 25 November.

Due to Washington Naval Treaty negotiations getting started, the project had been suspendeed in 18th November 1921 and the cancelled altogether in 21th February 1922. There is no photographic evidence of any of the keels being laid down, however, there are multiple sources stating that the proper production was ongoing and contractors, especially John Brown & Company (Sheffield and Clydebank) Limited, got paid for resources being used in production of the keel and armour plates, and of course there’s the main armament which was also partially produced, and then reused in Nelson Class Battleships.

The Case of N3

N3s got aproved by RN, but orders were never placed. Most components were to be shared between G3 and N3, but crucial parts, such as massive 45-calibre 18-inch guns, never made it out of the desk. As far as I know there’s no possible way to add this behemoth to the War Thunder universe, which is unfortunate, especially when you think about future prospects of Yamato Class and its derivatives being added .

Sources:

2 Likes

Uuuuuuh
What is going on here then

What do you mean exactly