Depends if it’s accurate in it’s current form at the moment. If it is, keep it as is and balance what carries it through the BR system/
I agree. Gaijin just needs to add a 13.3 bracket, and move the F-4F ICE to 13.3 and then we would probably all be content with that BR.
Right? And?
When did Germany, Italy, Britain or France get something to counter the Su-27SM?
December, last year with the Typhoon and Rafale.
Can’t we just beg for a 13.3 BR bracket instead of moving a potentially OP plane to 13.0?
Making them equal to regular size flares would be a good start, but I have heard that they are better than large calibre conventional flares IRL.
I’ve seen good sources showing that the tactic to fire the missile and then delock, shoudlnt work. The moment the radar is switched off, the DL shoudlnt switch back on again and I’ve seen fairly good sources showing the max speed is probably too high.
Yep. Making 13.0 worse than it already is, just seems like shooting yourself in the foot. Though I would enjoy the FA2 being 12.7
Besides germany, all the other countries had Gripens and Mirage 2Ks, both of which were better than the 27SM at the time
All the information you need to know:
But if gaijin really cares about things being historically accurate. There is only one thing they can do which is actually model BOL properly. Its stupid to not have usable CMs on things like the F3, Viggen and Harriers just because a few people compalined about the Gripen 18 months ago and still think that BOL would be too strong even though the game is radically different.
No they weren’t.
SAAF Gripen was and still is, weaker than the Su-27SM due to the shockingly bad state of R-Darter. Most did and I know a few who still do, basically run only Aim-9M
Italy was okay with the Hungarian Gripen
(though both nations really needed a native vehicle and not a sub-TT vehicle for top tier)
and Mriage 2K5F was only good after the massive MICA EM buff earlier this year. I never recall it being considered all that good before then. Also iirc, MICA EM were a really buggy mess when first added.
and thats onyl after we got Fox-3s.
Before then, You still had R-27ER vs IR only aircraft. One aircraft dominated BVR, which was the Su-27SM
The Typhoon radar has always been better than the Su-27 radar. This is doubly true when radar scan patterns were bugged. The FM has also been the best in the game since it was added; maybe bar for the first week.
Very much doubt it. We already meta with Su-27 against other 13.0s and it lost the vast majority of the time. Reducing multipathing to 60m makes it stronger but also makes ARH stronger. Everyone sticking to sea level flat maps largely offsets it.
Radar off Aim-9M slinger with good FM is still strongest planes at 13.0.
Nerfed BOL does fine at defeating ARH and SARH missiles. I have shown both use cases and still commonly use BOL equipped planes.
Did you not see missile miss from BOL Chaff? Do you think F-16 etc would have more difficulty with larger chaff?
People just want the game to be interesting. Having pure USA vs USA bracket is actually hot garbage. I made MiG-29 video about a week ago and both sides are mostly premium NATO planes. It’s boring. Doubly so when NATO players j-out as soon as they merge and aren’t immediately winning.
The Gripen says hello? The Mirage 2000 also says hello?
Germany never even had to fight Su-27 since it’s always on red side.
But how would it be op if there are already better things than it at a lower BR?
and people have been begging for additional brackets for months and yet no response, so realistically speaking, the chance of lowering a singular plane is much greater than creating an entire new bracket
Gripen and eurofighter have no problem with current BOL, and just imagine what would happen with something like the F/A-18C MLU 2 with 1200 large caliber countermeasures (to say it would be invulnerable would just be downplaying the issue)
The whole BOL issue could be solved just by having reinforced flares again so that one press of button deploys 2 sets of flares. That would keep BOL from being 5 minute long invincibility shield like old days.
No it wasnt.
It was weaker, much weaker for the first month or 2 and then about equal until last major update where it got some fixes.
And they were just as bugged for the Typhoon
No it wasn’t. Took a few months to get it sorted, though even now its underperforming by a notable amount.
No, you have shown BOL performing okay, under ideal conditions in some of the best performing aircraft equipped with BOL.
Tornado F3, Viggen D/DI, Harriers, need full strength BOL, This is none negotiable. If CM can now be changed for the sake of balance. Then the Mig-23s should have their large calibre CMs reduced to regular CMs for balancing reasons.
Again, you got lucky, I have had Su-27 radars totally ignore large calibre chaff in a notch before. And yet can reliably defeat every single other missile and radar in game. Pretty much the number 1 thing I die to whenever I play the Tornado Gr4 in either ARB or ASB. Can defeat everything else with ease, including all ARH.
I agree, 12.7 was boring when it was US vs US. It still is with the German F-18 now.
But what I also dont want is 3 vs 16 at 13.0 because Su-27 is just dominating. Hard enough as it is getting into a fun 13.0 match without a load of F4F ICEs spawn camping.
They should let us make custom countermeasure patterns, maybe even adjustable during the game
It never has, R darter is pretty similar to the R77
And even now you have the countermeasures count and the Flight model to defeat an su27sm any day of the week
Simply untrue
Is that why IR only aircrafts such as the gripen were dominating every single match?
Let me remind you that during those days there was 100m multipath, and dying to any kind of radar missile was an outright skill issue.
Because of this, the best plane in the game was the gripen, which was somehow breaking the game despite not having any good radar missile.
Also, the su27SM was added in the Fox 3 update, in which it was actually one fo the worst aircrafts of the patch.
Such as?
if your answer is the Gripen A, F-15A, F4F ICE, etc. Then you are saying that the Su-27 should move to 13.3 because other 13.3 aircraft are under BRed
Just because Gripen and Typhoon do okay with BOL. Doesnt mean the 4x Tornados, 3x Viggens, 3x Harriers or even the F-14B do okay with BOL in its current state. In fact they nearly could all do with dropping down in BR as a direct result of the current state of BOL.
The better solution then would be to limited the F-18C to 2-4x BOL. Rather than nerfing aircraft with only 2 because one other aircraft has 8.
Its a bit like saying the R-27ER on the Mig-29 should be limited to Mach 1 because the Su-27 can carry 6.
Much weaker actually in anything but point blank and even then, only if doesnt decide to loft.
Barely. SAAF Gripen C is widely considered the weakest 13.7 in game right now.
I dont recall ever seeing or even really fighting a M2K prior to that buff. Nor do I recall a single post describing them as even slightly good. Maybe they were average, but they werent good.
If you knew how to mitigate MP, you could stil get kills. Especailly with an IOG equipped SARH. But I basically didnt play the Gripen C for those first 6 months, the gameplay was boring as hell and the 9Ms were even mroe useless back then. Having to fly on the deck, because the moment you even dared go above 150 ft, you died to an R-27ER.
Back then it was, due to having half decent BOL and 100m MP. Betwene the BOL nerfs and reduction in MP. Su-27 probably stands a fair chance against the Gripen A. Though even back then, It wasnt so completely one sided that the Su-27 could never win. It wasnt like the Tornado F3 vs Mig-29 we had for the entire year before.
Really?
I always considered it much better than the Sea harrier FA2 which was disappointingly buggy. (still is more than a year on, but at least its got a usable RWR now, that only took 6 months) and the Su-27SM was still stronger than the F3 Late and F4F ICE. Let alone the J-8F and J11.
So Blufor gets air superiority and super manoeuvrable fighters, but Redfor can’t have anything comparable?
To clarify, BOL pods supplement built-in dispensers, not replace them. They use smaller, low-visibility IR decoys, so matching large-calibre flares isn’t accurate. This “nerf” hits aircraft like the Mirage 4000 hardest, since they rely on BOL alone and lose both capacity and effectiveness compared to peers.
This sounds a lot like past reactions to certain very long-range missile claims. People doubted the speed back then too, but disbelief alone doesn’t make it unrealistic. Changing DL here would also nerf the AIM-7P, which already struggles.
No it wasn’t. It just wasn’t as remarkable as Brit mains thought it should be.
Double scan bug was fixed as soon as Typhoon was released. Also TWS+ was implemented because of Typhoon.
Su-27 had to cope with double scan bug since ARH update until it was fixed with Typhoon update.
Typhoon mains never got to experience what a truly awful radar was.
It did not. The flight model has been largely the same since it’s release. There have only been relatively minor changes since it’s introduction. The flight model was largely resolved in the first two weeks after the patch.
It’s also not currently underperforming by any notable amount currently. There are more areas that it overperforms than underperforms; notably at higher altitudes and higher speeds. Even in it’s current iteration it was a superior dogfighter to the Rafale (when it was erroneously buffed in turn performance).
It is literally just emoloting proper notching mechanics and understanding how they work in the game.
The only plane that would suffer because of BOL would be the Tornado and that is because of the planes abysmal turn rate. The R-27ER would miss but your loop or split S would intersect with the ground.
That’s just a plane performance issue. Not anyone’s fault that IRL Tornado kinematics were hotdog water. The planes barely more maneuverable than a MiG-25.
I’ve literally never been spawn camped by F-4F ICE while playing on blue side in at 13.0.
Such as the f2, F15A and Jas39A etc
Are now you gonna tell me that a plane with pretty much no usable radar missiles should be 13.3 too?
Unfortunately for most of them, their armament loadout doesn’t allow this
How is it much weaker? Sure R77 pulls more, and has a bigger warhead but besides that they’re more similar than you would imagine
What do you mean barely? You have the countermeasure count to notch and flare every single missile, and on top of having an infinetely superior flight model.
It was objectively one of the best 13.7s at the time and still is.
How exactly?
By the splash damage of the missile’s warhead?
Only the phoenix could (maybe) damage you if it got closed enough
It was boring because the plane would play itself with no competetion, much like the rafale now
How when that’s arguably when the 9M was at it’s peak?
Yes, if you go and watch yt videos of that patch, you will see that the 27SM wasn’t generally praised much
On the contrary, it was on the lower end compared to other platforms and their missiles
Hu?
If we go exclsuively USA, Britain and Israel vs USSR, Germany and China.
US gets F-15A, F18A & C, F-16A
Britian gets Sea harrier FA2
Israel gets Kfir C10 and Netz (F16A)
vs
Germany gets the F4F ICE, Mig-29G and F-18C
Soviets get Yak-141 and Mig-29
China gets F-16 and J-8F.
That seems fairly balanced to me actually in terms of maneuvable aircraft.
With F-2/F-15J, Gripen A, Mirage 2k/4K and F-16/Mig-29 being able to appear on either team.
Though I would also argue that several bluefor aircraft like the F-15A are under BRed and should be at 13.3. Which is why a 13.3 bracket would be better than making 13.0 even more compressed that it already is.
Throw in a Mig-29G-esk Premium for the soviets and something equivalent for China and it would be fine with the Su-27 being 13.3 alongside its peers.
Really depends on the aircraft. Torando F3 for example, Only had 32 internal CMs, I dont really consider that enough without BOL at any BR. Especially not 13.0 for the F3 Late. and for aircraft like the Harriers, they need every flare they can get.
No… This is wrong. They are not flares at all. They release a cloud of pyrophoric material that creates a massive IR signature capable physically blocking the entire aircraft from view in rear-aspect. This effect is how it defeats IIR missiles. The only downside is their short “burn” time compared to actual flares.
Flame explains well how it works:
Mirage 4K does not use BOL. No idea what is uses, but it isnt BOL. Otherwise it would have 320x Countermeasure (BOL) and not 112x Large Calibre Countermeasures
Specifically this report:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/todo3RATsYNY
Though Gaijin made the decision to just have DL work like it does currently for all missiles, regardless of whether or not its accurate.
