Shipping manifest, though no procured design that verifiably existed, and especially a differing armament array than was planned.
If you can substantiate those “shipping manifests” and prove that it’s real with those alone, you honestly deserve a pulitzer prize.
Which “development” states that? No paper on it, no imagery of the fictitious quad-30 array?
The one of only two that was ever pictured brandished a FlaK 43, not a borderline make-believe mashup of a flakvierling mount on an already nonexistent SPAA “platform”.
You… Want me to provide evidence that they don’t exist?
Are you new here? Or are you genuinely this lost…
Starting to see what you mean, digging into it it also appears the change was pushed about half a year ago, where I hadn’t been playing the game.
Remember when the landing flaps used to rip at 500km/h? Pepperidge farm remembers.
True there. I’d rather take B-20s or HS’s any day.
Germany burned a lot of documents at war’s end, same as Japan. Plus whatever was lost due to enemy action. Either the documents are long gone or sitting forgotten in some archive like the O-I documents were.
You will also notice that the Ostwind 2 is listed here as well. Whether it is accurate or not to the real thing, that is another argument - but in either case it will have two 3.7cm cannons.
Both of these come from existing threads here on this forum about the Zerstorer 45 (and crucially why it is NOT the Zerstorer 45).
I don’t think I was around back then, must have been quite something. Like the M1.1 rip speed on the J7W and H6K. I still have a video somewhere of me in a custom battle getting the J7W to supersonic speeds.
EDIT: as an aside, the US recently got an SPAA that they had no hand in (Skink).
A lack of evidence does not pass as evidence, try again.
That’s exactly what they were doing, seeing as none existed in the entirety of Germany’s history.
Said flakvierling mount, something that was never produced and especially never put on the Zerstorer.
Reading what, your lack of citation?
Oh boy, we love our blogposts that DEFINITELY contain “development” of the Zerstorer that also happens to include “statements”.
Even one of the citations, a book by Jentz and Doyle that documents ALL Nazi SPAA designs, show imagery of BOTH ZERSTORERS, neither of which brandishing the quad-30 array… Only the 2cm FlaK38 unit shared with the Wirbelwind and the 3.7cm FlaK43
If there’s contention as to whether or not your citation is accurate, you shouldn’t be using it.
The legitimate Zerstorer that was to be based on the closed chassis and turret was anticipated with a Zwilling installation… Not whatever side-by-side BS is in-game.
that’s like 25% true and 75% map illiteracy.
99% of the team goes C in Breslau.
99% of the team goes A in Advance to the Rhine.
etc etc.
Any given match in warthunder your team is like 3-4 people who have an idea of what software is installed on their PC and the rest are cattle that push head-on into the enemy and die. This works fine if you give them a wall of Tiger II’s or Objects to sponge hits in but when they try to play something like US/France and will die in one hit, frontally engaging the enemy in column formation is just an accelerant for defeat. Even if they somehow win, they never flank the other positions or set up ambushes for the second wave of spawns. They just W-key into the enemy spawn until something kills them.
Cool story but they aren’t the topic at hand and there’s many more sources in that site. Also those are Flakpanzer IV Mobelwagens:
Not THE “Zerstorer 45”, but gaijin doubts it was made, so they added the test chassis with the 30mm quad mount that was built specifically for this project.
You can find them on the threads they were originally posted on. Now, are you gonna post any evidence in the contrary, or just the same-old “this never happened because I said so”?
That’s the Kugelblitz, which also isn’t a Zerstorer 45. The Zerstorer 45’s description specifies a quad-mount 30mm in a chassis almost identical to the Wirbelwind. No mentions of a closed chassis, no mentions of it being only two guns.
Not at all! It is better than most, but it’s reload rate and targeting speed are bad even at rank 4, and the gun is inferior to most 8.7s. Mobility is mediocre and the only good thing is the armor. It should be nerfed by some way (putting it at 9.0 is not a good idea since T-62M-1 is there and is just a better version of the AM, not to talk about the far, far superior to both - the XM803), but it’s not overpowered, unlike the Turm III - one might say the Turm is at least equal to the AM-1.
Less armor and less mobility make it at least equal, if not worse. The Pz.IV is not that big anyway, has enough post-pen damage anyway and got a trolly frontal armor to use in sniping positions, while Chi-Nus tend to be one-shot by everything due to the same ‘being small’ advantage you described.
M4A1 is equal to the F2 (better reaction times and better MG vs. far, far, far better gun (than any tank at the BR), slightly better armor vs. slightly better mobility, that’s all) - but the M4A1 does not have many ‘friends’, American tanks that have a clearly too low BR, while the F2 has so many German undertiered friends!
And now for the major case: the KPz-70 vs. MBT-70 situation. They are almost the same vehicle, with two simple differences: the KPz has a significantly faster reload, which means a lot at high tier, while the MBT gets the advantage of loading the MGM-51C ATGMs much faster than it’s German counterpart. BUT! The 51C is considered one of the most useless missiles in the game, and any player with brain would pick a faster reload for APFSDS every day, let alone when the so-called ‘faster reloding ATGM’ would still take ages to reload.
Those two tanks are in the same BR.
First statement you quoted was true… It was never produced, with 1 being created for testing purposes that were never carried out on its intended platform.
Second quote is also true, as no amount of cherry-picking words will detract from the fact that the Ostwind 2 does not exist.
You do NOT have a picture of the Ostwind 2. You don’t even have a widely acclaimed name for the project, let alone how the 37mm cannons were supposed to be mounted into the turret.
It’s as fictional as the Ho-Ri, which straight up abandons the original design parameters and takes its own liberties to give it sloped armor… Which it wasn’t supposed to have.
They aren’t the topic at hand? I started this topic here, and I very clearly stated that as ONE OF THE TWO points on contention.
The 30mm was designed for use in the enacpsulated turret, with neither of the mobelwagens using the quad 30 mount.
I should be finding them cited directly under the imagery you posted of them, but I guess substantiation needs no sources…
Once again, are you asking of me to post evidence of the nonexistence of something? I’ve shown you photography of the only two existing SPAA mobelwagens with their 2cm and 3.7cm weaponry.
Wanna guess what neither of them had?
It isn’t the Kugelblitz? It was the furtherment of the Wirberlwind’s design, which was also eventually intended to be mounted on a Panther’s hull (something that was supposed to replace the Coelion’s development as a cost-effective measure).
The development of up-gunning the Ostwind called for two vertically aligned guns, keep track of what I’m saying. If you’re lost, simply drop the claim you’re trying to make, or at least make sure your end meets what I’m saying.
No pictures? Conflicting use of weaponry with vague allusions towards lack of procurement? Oh boy, I can’t wait to see how you prove this one!
Plenty of german vehicles are in the same sorry state as the Namers. Namely the Pumas with over a HUNDRED reported and sourced bugs that haven’t been fixed, inaccurate stats, missing armor etc. I don’t think they have even corrected the APS to what they claimed in the release devblog.
They can’t climb, turn, aren’t that fast and the guns are average. What’s so menacing about them? Every time I see them they’re a free kill.
Turm III dies in the blink of an eye to any half decent autocannon or a single shot into the turret. It is not without its downsides, just like the AM-1.
Pz IV H never stops any shells with its armor though. It’s no different with the Chi-Nu II and if you’re peeking over cover the Chi-Nu II is actually better protected.
It is pretty wide and has an extremely recognizable profile.
Let me put it this way. Say you’re shooting a T-34 and you pen his turret, as one does. In the Pz IV H you will 99% of the time have to shoot again when his gunner comes back or risk a shot into the hull, which due to the poor angled pen will probably bounce if the angle is not quite right.
In the Chi-Nu II, that same T-34 will just outright die to a turret shot thanks to having ~3x the filler.
Now apply this to other situations - someone was driving perpendicular to you, you couldn’t really see him well, your shot just sneaked into the back of his turret. With the Pz IV H’s meagre filler you might not even get 2 of his 3 turret crew; the Chi-Nu II will definitely get all 3.
I have played both and the M4A1 is far better. The vertical stabilizer allows you to outshoot everyone, the -12 depression allows you to exploit more positions and do so with a greater degree of safety, the better filler ensures a second shot is needed far less often - and even then the reload is shorter. Armor is quite a bit better since many people still shoot center mass. Less pen still alows you to kill 99% of tanks you meet, while the more common enemies are easier thanks to everything above.
Meanwhile the Chi-Nu combines the worst of both and is at the same BR. Gaijin has a clear bias towards the ever-underperforming USA mains.
Haven’t played either much, that whole BR range is very unenjoyable. But the reload difference is only 1.5s, it’s still faster than most tanks you meet.
The intended platform being a Pz IV hull with a Wirbelwind-style turret, which is not what we have in-game. We have the platform it was tested on - the Mobelwagen. It is the same chassis as the two you posted but they are not the Zerstorer 45 nor the testing vehicle for the 30mm quadmount.
We also don’t have a picture of the Ki-44-III but we know for sure it existed. We don’t have pictures of many things we know existed.
Again, shipping manifests show it existed.
Ho-Ri is a very different situation lol
Where do you see an enclosed turret for the 30mm quadmount? Where is your source for this, actually?
Clearly not, given that they unequivocally tested the 30mm quadmount (as pictured above) on a Mobelwagen.
Again, source, because I’ve never heard of this and in any case is not the Zerstorer 45 in question.
You’re the one that hasn’t sourced a single damn thing you said. Until you present any evidence for your claims I’m not continuing this. You can start by somehow proving that the “Zerstorer 45” is not the following vehicle:
It is more or less a match to the E variant. Worse mobility and gun in exchange for stabiliser and better armor. It would be a fair matchup given both players are of equal skill.
It’s just that Jumbo is basically unkillable for bad players which are the majority of playerbase regardless of nation or whatever. This is what bumps it’s BR up. It’s not very fair towards jumbo, but it is what it is.
75 jumbo is also overtiered, it should’ve honestly stayed at 5.3 while the tigers were being brought up
Jumbo can easily kill a Tiger whilst the Tiger cannot easily kill the Jumbo, plus I don’t think the mobility is significantly worse either, the Jumbo is pretty much better or equal in most categories, the firepower difference is not significant either if I recall.
Mobility difference is quite significant. Jumbo gets to accelerate a bit faster, but it will not go over 35kph. Tiger on the other hand easily goes over 40.
Besides that firepower difference is also quite big. Tiger gets around 10 pen more and internal overpressure which helps out a lot. And don’t forget that Tiger E doesn’t get the “privilage” of coming up against a Tiger 2h and Jagdtiger basically every 2nd game.
I don’t know how often you get the chance to go over 40 though, maybe early game or something but for the most part you’re not racing around the map doing 40km/h.
I’d trade that top speed in any day of the week for a stabilizer and a stupid amount of armor tho.
That stupid amount of armor is no longer stupid at such BR. Anything that has Panther levels of pen or above can just lolpen you as long as they know what they are doing. Stabiliser is very useful, but it still doesn’t make jumbo 76 worthy of 6.3
