Vixen at 8.3?

[Morvran]

It was a bad change, it faces too many with flares and faces aircraft much faster than it. There is little a Sea Vixen can do most matches other than go for players totally distracted. Had a match the otehr day which ended with no Red tops even fired because I never once got a shot oppotuntiy , Come up behind an AV-8A, AV-8S, Ayit, Hunter F58 , etc etc and there is nothing you can do, absolutely nothing. Then you have the supersonics like the F-104 and Mig-21 that equally leave you rendered useless. Heck it msot often faces aircraft like the Mig-21 with the 2x R-3S which just destroy it if you try to climb.

If it belongs at 9.0 then most between 9.0 and 9.7 belong 0.7 BR higher than they are currently.

@Nike Ajax

obviously if the kd ratio turned out to be bad the change should be reversed. so, why dont we go and support the idea of finding out whether a bigger battlerating is suitable for vixen
are you unconsciously scared of vixen performing well at a higher battle rating?

Because things that go up ,rarely come back down again.

Even if the Sea-Vixen was never getting a single kill it would never move back down. Look at the Tornado F3 year before last facing nothing but Mig-29s and F-16s with its 11.7 BR, I spent a year fighting for it to go down to 11.3, the same BR it had in RB, most agreed with me. Didnt move, wasnt until after it was facing Su-27s that it finally got improvements.

Britain has a track record making diamonds out of mud and so our vehicles are often over BRed. look at the Harrier Gr1 compared to the AV-8A or Challenger 2 vs Leopard 2A7.

Britain has WAY too many issues, nerfs, outstanding bug reports or dodgy BRs, so nerfing the Sea Vixen purely because its faster than most is just stupid. If speed and speed alone were the only metric for balancing vehicles then why is the Sea Harrier FA2 and the F4F ICE the same BR? Why is the Hunter F6 and F-104 the same BR? Why is the Javelin and Mig-15BIS the same BR?

When looked at as a whole. The Sea Vixen hold 1 advantage, it can run away. Take that away, what are you left with? Not a lot. Its a woefully underpowered aircraft without that one advantage and would need massive buffs to compensate like having All-aspect IR missiles.

[PercussionCap]

@Morvran

It has no Gun.

Don’t need one

@Morvran

It has no CMs

Neither do the 8.7s, 9.0s, 9.3s…

@Morvran

Its armed with only 4x Rear-aspect IR missiles

4 free kills at its low BR of 8.3

@Morvran

it is 50-100 kph or so faster than most others on average

*all others

Also plenty given its very high acceleration, even better than the best subsonic fighter CL-13B Mk6 at 9.3 (+higher top speed)

@Morvran

it has a radar

Which very few other 8.3s get, certainly not with the speed and armament of the Sea Vixen

@Morvran

You rarely get a shot oppotunity because the Red Tops have a very limited rear-aspect lock angle

9Es at 10.0 do just fine with an identical rear aspect lock angle. Slightly worse missiles at 8.3 are comically easy to employ.

@Morvran

If the target is actively turning, such as in a dogfight, unless the target is slow, the missile will miss

Then don’t fire them and just wait. Dogfights never last forever, and they’ll often get down to stall speeds where even the worse 9B wouldn’t miss.

@Morvran

You will not win a dogfight

Well good thing you never have to, since acceleration and top speed are far above its rivals

@Morvran

There is little you can do to defend yourself if attacked

@Morvran

or engaging distracted targets

Yes that’s how you play a missile bus and that’s how pretty much every high scoring ace pilot did it.

@Morvran

If running away is OP, then there are many Supersonics woefully under BRed

9.7 at the lowest

@Morvran

a Sub-sonic aircraft, armed with 4x limited range and performance IR missiles and no gun

At the same BR as aircraft which only have guns as advantage, being worse everywhere else

@Morvran

must be the same BR as aircraft faster, better equiupped and overall much better

Such as? Where are these 9.0s that can overtake a Sea Vixen?

@Morvran

9.0 is stupid. 9.3 is just insane.

9.0 would be generous. Can you imagine being a G.91 R/3 with no missiles and not even a radar gunsight, and have to fight an uncatchable unshootable enemy that can spot you from several km away with his radar and maneuver to your blind spots effortlessly, and even IF you dodge his missiles you can’t shoot him down because he’ll be well outside gun range by the time you turn his way?

@Morvran

The people who want it at 9.3 just want the free kill

F-86K has worse flight performance and it is extremely survivable there

@Morvran

and dislike anything being equal at 8.3

Where are the equals of the Sea Vixen AT 8.3? What other 8.3 aircraft has capable rear aspect missiles, a radar, and enough top speed + TWR to damn near GUARANTEE it is uncatchable even in a full uptier?

@Morvran

Its funny to think people want the Mig-15 to just dominate at 8.3 without counter

MiG-15 has to contend with Sabres and G.91s. A fair, even-matched fight. An uncatchable, radar-equipped missile slinger doesn’t belong there.

@Morvran

It was a bad change, it faces too many with flares

Oh no, people aren’t free kills to an action that requires two button presses! The horror.

@Morvran

Come up behind an AV-8A, AV-8S, Ayit, Hunter F58 , etc etc and there is nothing you can do, absolutely nothing.

Hey what a coincidence that’s the experience of everyone else when coming up behind a Sea Vixen!

@Morvran

Then you have the supersonics like the F-104 and Mig-21 that equally leave you rendered useless. Heck it msot often faces aircraft like the Mig-21 with the 2x R-3S which just destroy it if you try to climb.

Hey what a coincidence here too, that was the experience of all the 7.3s and 7.7s that got/get to fight this thing! Crazy how that works.

@Morvran

Britain has a track record making diamonds out of mud

@Morvran

so nerfing the Sea Vixen purely because its faster than most is just stupid

It’s called balance. Still waiting for you to name an 8.3 SB plane with identical kit and performance to it.

@Morvran

why is the Sea Harrier FA2 and the F4F ICE the same BR?

Nobody is gonna put an AMRAAM slinger lower than 13.0 and that’s already too low

@Morvran

Why is the Hunter F6 and F-104 the same BR?

Hunter can actually maneuver to pull in behind someone, and you consider SRAAMs to be better than Red Tops so them being better than 9Bs should be obvious.

@Morvran

The Sea Vixen hold 1 advantage

Speed, TWR, missile kit, search radar. All of which are unmatched at 8.3 8.7 and even 9.0.

[Nike Ajax]

@Morvran

It was a bad change, it faces too many with flares and faces aircraft much faster than it.

“it faces this and that blah blah blah it can do a little”
it is performing well with a good positive kd ratio amongst most players and no amount of imaginary squirming can change that. it was a good change no matter of how you try to spin it around. if it wasnt a good change it would have a bad kd ratio amongst most players

[Morvran]

So, using your logic. mig-23MLD should be 12.0 not 11.3?

Harrier Gr7 should be 11.7 not 12.3

F-104s and Mig21s should be 11.0+

Javelin to 8.0 as it’s slower than a La-200

Buc S2 to 8.0 because it has no guns and only 2x Aim-9Bs

[Nike Ajax]

again you had no good reply so you had to start going on logical fallacy of whataboutism
what about this aircraft what about that aircraft
lets focus on vixen’s battlerating. this topic is about vixen’s battle rating not harrier or f104 or mig 21. make your own post for those.
so, you have any real arguments instead of trying to deflect with topic change?

[PercussionCap]

@Morvran

So, using your logic. mig-23MLD should be 12.0 not 11.3?

Harrier Gr7 should be 11.7 not 12.3

F-104s and Mig21s should be 11.0+

Supersonics and IRCCM slingers are irrelevant here.

Still waiting for you to name an equivalent to the Sea Vixen at 8.3.

@Morvran

Javelin to 8.0 as it’s slower than a La-200

Has radar and missiles. Balanced.

@Morvran

Buc S2 to 8.0 because it has no guns and only 2x Aim-9Bs

It’s a bomber, by that logic the IL-28s you farm should be moved to outside your Sea Vixen’s matchmaking.

[Morvran]

I have yet to see any reasonable argument.

Sea vixen is faster, that is it. It cannot win in a turn fight, has no guns to use in a turn fight and red tops are easily defeated by turning. As neither of you have a single match in the sea vixen or anything with red tops…how can you comment on their performance?

This idea that Britain must be nerfed is just getting old now. If the sea vixen was on the soviet tree it would barely be 8.0

[PercussionCap]

@Morvran

It cannot win in a turn fight

@Morvran

As neither of you have a single match in the sea vixen or anything with red tops…how can you comment on their performance?

I don’t have to be a chef to know when the rice is burnt. I don’t have to play the Sea Vixen to know that something that outperforms a 9.3 interceptor doesn’t belong at 8.3.

[Nike Ajax]

@Morvran

I have yet to see any reasonable argument.

i already told you, amongst most players, the sea vixen is performing well at the new battle rating. this indicates a suitable battle rating. if it was a bad battlerating, the kd ratios of most players would be bad. this is a fact so there is no real way to counter argue other than using fallacies or distractions because in the end its performing well at the br lol this is my argument. you cant say its not performing well there because it is

[Nike Ajax]

@PercussionCap

@Morvran

As neither of you have a single match in the sea vixen or anything with red tops…how can you comment on their performance?

by looking at players who play them and viewing their kd ratios and we can also message them how frequently they have played it and how much. most players you face will have a good kd ratio

[Morvran]

@PercussionCap

Don’t need one

Then remove guns from anything with missiles then?

@PercussionCap

Neither do the 8.7s, 9.0s, 9.3s…

Alpha Jet to 9.7 then?

@PercussionCap

4 free kills at its low BR of 8.3

Sounds like a skill issue if you cannot dodge a red top and ambushing alone is not a reason to nerf a vehicle. I get kills against Mig-23MLDs in the Tornado Gr1. Does not mean the Tornado Gr1 is better than the Mig23MLD

@PercussionCap

9Es at 10.0 do just fine with an identical rear aspect lock angle. Slightly worse missiles at 8.3 are comically easy to employ.

In supersonic aircraft or those with better turn performance. Hunter FGA9 is 9.3/9.7 respectively and they are woeful to use. FGA9 should be more like 9.0 in SB and it is faster and turns better than the sea vixen.

@PercussionCap

Then don’t fire them and just wait. Dogfights never last forever, and they’ll often get down to stall speeds where even the worse 9B wouldn’t miss.

Then you will never fire or you will get dragged into a 1v2 or worse…you’ve also bled all your speed waiting for that shot opportunity and are a free kills for anything coming in.

You are a massive target

@PercussionCap

Well good thing you never have to, since acceleration and top speed are far above its rivals

So you agree it’s weaker in any dogfight and all you can do is run away from fights and never engage with anyone?

@PercussionCap

Yes that’s how you play a missile bus and that’s how pretty much every high scoring ace pilot did it.

So you are saying that the only way the sea vixen can get kills at its BR is by 2v1-ing anything it faces? Sounds like it needs buffs not nerfs

@PercussionCap

At the same BR as aircraft which only have guns as advantage, being worse everywhere else

Then Hunter F1 to 8.0 then because it faces mostly things with missiles at 9.0

@PercussionCap

Such as? Where are these 9.0s that can overtake a Sea Vixen?

G-91 and Mig17 are faster or at the very least can keep pace

@PercussionCap

9.0 would be generous. Can you imagine being a G.91 R/3 with no missiles and not even a radar gunsight, and have to fight an uncatchable unshootable enemy that can spot you from several km away with his radar and maneuver to your blind spots effortlessly, and even IF you dodge his missiles you can’t shoot him down because he’ll be well outside gun range by the time you turn his way?

Can you imagine being in a G91 with only 4x Aim-9Bs? What BR would you place it at?

@PercussionCap

Where are the equals of the Sea Vixen AT 8.3? What other 8.3 aircraft has capable rear aspect missiles, a radar, and enough top speed + TWR to damn near GUARANTEE it is uncatchable even in a full uptier?

You have already agreed with me that sea vixen can only fight things distracted or otherwise run away from a fight. If it could fight everything with ease, then why is that necessary…you are ignoring the weaknesses the sea vixen has and looking only at the fact it’s marginally faster.

I can’t be arsed to respond to the rest but the cope is laughable.

Sea vixen is faster, just. That is it. It has better missiles because it has no guns. It cannot dogfight.

You are hunting bombers or ambushing people distracted. In a 1v1 fight Vs a mig-15, G-91 or anything else. You could deny them the kill all day long sure…but they could just ask easily do the same to you.

[Nike Ajax]

wanna reply to me next?

[Morvran]

Unless you have access to Gaijin records we wont know. From everyone I have spoken to that have tried to play it the conclusion from the changes are this.

If you are uptiered. You will struggle immensely. Ayit and AV-8A/C/S will defeat you with ease. Mig-21s and F-104s destroy you if you try to climb. Many targets are immune to you through the use of CMs and more often that not, if the enemy sees you coming they will just turn away and deny the shot.

my own experience confirms this. Sea Vixen can be shut down way too easily and yes it can run away or keep pursuers off, but there realistically isnt anything you can do to someone aware of you. If you run away and then turn back in like the F-104s do, then you wont be able to attack because they’ll just head on you and you have no guns to fire back.

A sea-vixen just spends there time diving in on furballs and hoping someone gives you a shot oppotunity.

The Sea Vixen is wierdly placed as its strong in a downtier, but almost useless in an uptier. Its as high as it can go and arguably is too high in RB and should have remained at 8.7 to mitigate the number of 9.7s it sees.

If it is too remain at 9.0 in RB, then it should get the ability to attack from far greater angles, including front aspect. Given you have aircraft like the G-91 with the AA-20s or the supersonic Mig-21 with R-3s, this is not unreasoanble for it. They would still be just as defeatable by turning. Would then enable it to move up in SB and even allow the Lightnings to move up as well.

[Nike Ajax]

@Morvran

From everyone I have spoken to that have tried to play it the conclusion from the changes are this.

only unhappy people will be on forums to complain. happy players will be playing. you can look at individual matches you dont need gaijin statistics and compile the data from them. you can see vixens performing well at 9.0 based on kd ratios. youre also one of those who doesnt like the change despite it performing well there. it is supposed to perform badly in uptiers. what matters is the mashup performance which includes downtier uptier total performance as long as you have good mashup performance it means something makes up for it. so in this case it could be that in uptiers it has hard time but the downtier performance makes up for it adequately and there are enough downtiers to make it happen because it brings a positive kd ratio
which means that the aircraft is performing well at it’s br considering the mashup of battle ratings it is sandwiched between

look at people who actually play the plane and how they are performing in the matches

[Morvran]

@PercussionCap

Hunter can actually maneuver to pull in behind someone, and you consider SRAAMs to be better than Red Tops so them being better than 9Bs should be obvious.

I will also quickly say this. SRAAMs I am considering not how they are, but how they should be. They have half the range they should

So I am consdiering with that bug fix in mind

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/OOgvguUxCHJF

[Ogaly_Bogaly]

@PercussionCap

Don’t need one

Yeah that’s exactly why the US Navy designed the F-4 with no gun, relegating it to missiles and gun pods only. But then reintroduced an internal gun with the later models.

Guns are a very useful secondary to missiles at close range dogfights, especially when a single pull can dodge the missile you just fired at them. Just a few minutes ago an F-104 dodged a redtop I fired at him in my Lightning at 1.5km rear aspect, its not hard to do.

Whats the point of trying to fight fighters if you don’t have a reliable method of fighting them, as redtops are really only good at picking off the unaware and you don’t have a gun to get reliable kills?

[Nike Ajax]

@Ogaly_Bogaly

Whats the point of trying to fight fighters

thats the thing youre a support fighter not a brawler lmao and since it is performing adequately as such there is no problem. stop having brawler expectations for the vixen.

[Morvran]

@Nike Ajax

only unhappy people will be on forums to complain. happy players will be playing

So Mig-15 is fine then and doesnt struggle vs Sea vixen?

@Nike Ajax

youre also one of those who doesnt like the change despite it performing well there.

I have no issue with change when its fair and justified. Like I would have no issue with the Tornado F3 moving to 12.3 should the BOL be fixed or even the SHar FRS1s moving up if the Harriers ever get fixed.

I even have no issue with the Harrier Gr1 with no CMs being the same BR as the AV-8A/S with 240 CMs if the SRAAMs were fixed.

But I dislike this idea that the Sea Vixen must be nerfed to the point where it can barely fight anyone. 9.0/9.3 for it is just un-justified and there is no reason for it. You and Cap are making it out like the Red Tops are 30G monsters and the Sea Vixen is Mach 1+ capable. Both are simply untrue.

many aircraft are faster than those at the same BR Many aircraft have better loadouts than those at the same BR. But there comes with trade-offs and disadvantages. You are shining a light only on the Sea Vixens strength and just brushing the weaknesses under the rug.

@Nike Ajax

look at people who actually play the plane and how they are performing in the matches

Which you ahvent, not a single match. I have, plenty of times, both before and after the nerf. its way worse after

[Morvran]

So… it cannot fight anything in a 1v1 because its meant to played like a Support fighter, but is OP and must be nerfed?

isnt this a contradiction?

[Nike Ajax]

@Morvran

So Mig-15 is fine then and doesnt struggle vs Sea vixen?

Nike Ajax:

doesn’t change the fact that data will be compiled from those where we can view their matches and see how they perform instead of those who are bitter, dont play and just complain on forums
as long as there are a good number of players who do well at the battle rating that is good.
vixen is performing well as a support fighter in the new battle rating considering active players instead of those who played 10 matches and started complaining instead of learning the new battlerating gameplay
again youre trying this “strengths and weaknesses game” with me. like i said if the aircraft performs well, then it performs well. players are literally dealing with those and performing well