Vixen at 8.3?

Game Discussion Simulator Battle
184

If you are fighting gunfighter to gunfighter, especially in a 1vs1 duel - dragging an enemy fighter into a climb where they stall out before you is a viable and very fun tactic.

You can do this if there’s only gunfighters around as by the time you’d get third partied (effective range 400-600 meters), you have finished executing your maneuver.

If there’s missiles around, even 9Bs, they kind of shut down a lot of vertical dogfighting techniques.

They also make flying higher than ground level painful. You got no RWR and cannot look below you. Gunfighters may still sneak up on you from below, but effective ranges of 400-600m persist and we’re talking sim - a lot of people prefer even shorter ranges (although korean jet nose mounted guns help).

Meanwhile 9Bs and red tops can snipe you from a good 2km away.

Edit:

Also

What 9.3 aircraft have flares? Looking at the 9.0/9.3 fighters of USSR/germany/UK/US/Italy/france I cannot see anything that has flares. No for mig17 variants/imitations, no for f86 variants/imitations, no for f3h, no for yak38, no for alpha jet, no for hunter,

Only cases I found flares is strike craft like A32 and bombers like buccaneer.

1 Like
185

Well, I did not expect this post to evolve so much.

I would like to draw some general conclusions that I have taken after reading all the answers.

1-There is a superior performance in “energy fighting” (Speed) (Boom and zoom) (Hit and run) by the Vixen. This is not a problem in lower BRs or just when there are not missiles becuse the gameplay gives chances to shoot back.

2-The missiles are not great but are OK. However the vixen lacks guns. The key point is that having missiles allows to shoot from a relatively safe position (from the back and with higher speed). Not having guns is a problem when there is not another alternative, but just happens to be one (missiles). In a higher BR, there are planes with CM, however, being fast, and turning down the radar can avoid RWR and still get kills in a gameplay style similar to the ones of the higher BR.

3- I have put the Mig-15 as an example because is what I mainly play, but the keypoint is that there is no any other plane that can beat the Vixen in performance at the BR or 8.7 (many 9.0 and 9.3 cant neither).

From these 3 points I want to highlight the problem of the Vixen´s gameplay. It allows to attack with a decent percentage of success (the missile can hit or not) but on top of that it gives NO POSSIBILITY of payback as is just sufficiently faster to do that. It also accelerates way more than other planes, even interceptors.

We dont want UK to perform bad, or USSR to be superior, the matter is that right now is neither balanced nor fun to play.

Have fun.

3 Likes
186

Alpha Jet and Ayit are 2 I can think of off the top of my head. But you also have many aircraft that are 100-200 kph faster than the vixen at 9.3 as well like the F3H. The sea vixen is also not 0.3 BR worse than the Harriers, consider them so close in performance is kinda ridiculous

187

Ayit I concede. I also wonder why there’s aim-9D at 9.3 when it’s part of why the f8u-2 is busted. OTOH, I never see israel when flying 9.3-10.3 so I cannot judge the ayit.

As for alpha jet, I guess A has them and E doesn’t? Concede that one as well.

What I don’t concede though is the effects missiles have on the freedom of movement and maneuvering for gunfight duels by virtue of third partying from much greater ranges and energy states.

1 Like
188

Red tops aren’t usable when the target is within about 800m, they don’t pull well enough unless the target is flying perfectly straight. If the target is actively turning, then the red tops also won’t hit a maneuvering target unless you are able to lead the shot extremely well.

There is little you can do in an actual dogfight. If a fight ever got like that, I would turn tail and disengage, rather than being caught low and slow and be killed with ease by a third party, or even the person I’m turning with, getting their guns on me.

Vixen is good at only 2 things, BnZ and bomber hunting. A well played gunfighter, even one as low as 7.7, can easily deny a sea vixen a single shot opportunity. Those that are equal in speed and superior in turn performance and loadout at 9.0. there is little you can do. I can easily spend an entire match having not fired a single red top because I didnt get a shot opportunity.

189

So don’t get within 800m. This isn’t difficult. And if they’re turning, lead the missile. Also not difficult, and means that the missile doesn’t have to pull very hard to hit. But honestly I don’t believe for a second that Red Tops are incapable of hitting a target within 800m. 500m I’d believe, not 800.

You’re also completely exaggerating the flares issue. Even at 9.3, there are like 4 planes with flares. A-4E early, Ayit, Yak-28, and Alpha Jet A. The A-4E and Ayit will ALWAYS be on your team, so they are irrelevant (and the Ayit should really go up to 10.0 because of how good of an attacker it is anyway). The Alpha Jet does not have the performance to fight back against the Sea Vixen. The Yak is limited to guns and is not maneuverable, and arguably shouldn’t be as low as it is anyway, since it is in a similar position of being literally untouchable.

edit: actually, the Ayit is already 9.7 anyway, making it even more irrelevant to the discussion.

Sea Vixen is overpowered at 8.3. Moving it to 9.0 where a HANDFUL of planes can at least contest it is the correct move.

2 Likes
190

Fair enough, I clearly got my F-4’s confused, but the point stands, an internal gun is more useful than a gun-pod, which is better than no gun at all, meaning that if someone is paying somewhat attention and dodges the missile, you don’t have a backup option on the Vixen.

This means that the Vixen would become completely useless if moved too high, such as at 9.3. I agree that 8.3 is probably too low, but it is an issue of compression, as a vehicle with only 4 missiles, which are great at 8.3, but would be horrible against stuff with CM found at the higher BR bracket and those paying a small amount of attention behind them, which negates its only firepower if the opponent is paying attention, which is far easier with RWR.

IMHO the best place for the Vixen would be 8.7-9.0, not 9.3

Sorry for the confusion here, I meant that the Lightning was the faster platform. The argument for this comment was that if a missile was launched from a faster platform (the lightning f.6 in this case), then it would become more deadly than one launched from a slower platform, due to the higher initial speed from launch, which gives less time to react.

191

If it moves to 9.0 then we should get historically modeled red tops. Without that, it is not the equal of aircraft like the Hunter F1, G-91, etc. it does not have the performance to compete with ratting behaviour which is an indicator a vehicle is over BRed or at the very least underperforming. If a vehicle can ONLY be played via the use of sneaking up on unawares enemies or by attacking those distracted by someone else, then it clearly is not able to compete against them.

Aircraft are balanced as whole, not just on their max speed. Sea Vixen is poorly equipped aircraft compared to many, heck, you have the scimitar at 8.7 which is equally fast and has 4x 9Bs and 4x 30mm ADEN. I would consider that a superior aircraft to the sea vixen. To propose the sea vixen move higher, is just insane

192

Where are these planes at 9.0 with CMs, comparable speed, and comparable weapons

Such as? Preferably actual fighters and not free kill attackers

Where all aspects at 9.3

I don’t know if they have enough maneuverability to make that much more useful than a 9E’s gimbal limit.

How are you dying to G.91s? They’re slower than you and have worse acceleration. They don’t even have a radar. Their missiles are worse. Literally just don’t turnfight them???

Two attackers, one as much undertiered as the sea vixen (and 99% of the time on same team as you) and the other with no missiles, radar gunsight, or ANY rear visibility that would allow it to actually see a missile coming, on top of so little engine performance that dodging a single missile would otherwise be extremely difficult

~20kph faster, only in afterburner under which its endurance is severely reduced, with no flares or rear visibility, and worse missiles.

We have finally found a Sea Vixen counterpart! Except its 9.3 and not 8.3.

So same for everyone else’s missiles until 9.7 with 9Gs and Js

Clearly not doing that if G.91s are killing you

As can the Sea Vixen, except you get to decide if/when they come near you and are free to force them to maneuver thanks to much greater speed and TWR. Any 8.3 or near gunfighter can do nothing.

NAME THEM

You’re right, it’s not their equal. It’s better.

See: every 6.7 Sim jet that are very competitive yet require their targets to be unaware/very slow/stalling due to poor maneuverability

Scimitar should also be higher then, easy. 9Bs are worse as well.

1 Like
193

Gimbal limit is useful specifically because it means the missile doesn’t need as much maneuverability. You can lead the shot more so that the missile is travelling in a straighter line, it’s not only good for making off-bore shots.

194

This is the most realist comment I have read in a while. Ty is so much for being competent.

195

[Bear in mind this comes from an arcade main that doesnt know much about SB]

I am actually curious, what is so powerful about the Ariete? It has no flares or missiles, and only two 30mm cannon.

196

Although I hate the saggitario 2 more.

Saggitario 2 has a mig-15’s performance at 8.0. Mig15 is 8.3

At 8.0 you have F2H-2s, Me-262, venoms and similar and 7.7 for horten.

Edit:

Saggitario 2 (8.0) vs Mig-15 ns23 (8.3)

Spoiler

Saggi turns better at 1k alt

graph

image
image1485×869 256 KB

Saggi has the same acceleration at 1k alt
Saggi is a bit better at getting to top speed

graph

image
image1493×842 44.8 KB

graph

image
image1493×877 67.5 KB

Top speed is comparable

graph

image
image1472×859 63.3 KB

Graphs copy pasted if links break or I messed up.

2 Likes
197

Easily the best subsonic fighter, but sits at 9.0 Sim. That’s lower than the F-40 Sabres, F-86K or CL-13B, the same as the ‘late’ G.91s, F-25 Sabres, Venom FB, and MiG-17.

Keep in mind an Ariete with a half decent pilot will absolutely rawdog ALL of these.

198

Interesting. Surprisingly havent run into it in AB, even though its easily downtiered to 9.0…

Given whats here, though, I can agree with it going up in SB, since its fairly clear its a bit too powerful.

Also Sagittario is wild, why is that at 8.0 in sim.

199

Saggitario should really be 8.7, from my experience using it. Ariete should be 9.7.

200

Getting baited into mistakes is NOT exclusively a skill issue whatsoever. When the source of a mistake is deception and not lack of experience, there is no skill issue. You can’t fly flawlessly forever, because pilots have certain motivations.
It IS possible for Sea Vixens to do things at higher BRs (9.0-10.0), but you need to know how to fight pilots, not planes, and the Sea Vixens are well equipped to do so. Yes, if your opponent happens to have flares you can’t 1v1 in that case, but you’re still excellent support for a teammate: you bait well because of your flight performance, and if an opponent is busy attacking a teammate then that’s an opponent that will not flare your missile.

1 Like
201

Excellent flight performance and amazing visibility for its tier (quite an advantage in sim where a lot of fighters of that tier have very restrictive cockpit layouts).

In a dogfight, sure. But that implies the Sea Vixen is engaging in a dogfight in the first place. All it needs to do is use its speed and the G.91 is completely powerless. Its only weapon against an extending Sea Vixen is a Nord AA.20 (for the 1% of players skilled at using SACLOS AAMs). The AIM-9B is just for the R/4 premiums and it isn’t exactly reliable. On tech tree you don’t even get them until the G.91 YS at 9.7, which you’d never face unless you choose to uptier the vehicle.

The thing is that it doesn’t need to be able to go tor to toe with other aircraft that are meant to be dogfighter when the Sea Vixen is uniquely equipped for sneaky hit-and-run gameplay. It has radar, RWR is a rarity at that tier. The few planes that have it are mostly attack aircraft with inferior flight performance. Because of the higher speed and acceleration you get to control the engagement.

2 Likes
202

I mean you got jumped twice, because you did not look behind you in any way for a longer period of time.

And just because someone flies straight towards you, does not mean you should also turn into them…
If they are slower (of which most are) make them turn and fly away towards teammates. If they are faster (F-104s and the like), make them overshoot and then shoot a missle at them.

Try playing it like a Hunter. Especially like the F.58. I think that playstyle would be more fitting for the Vixen.

1 Like
203

It’s no doubt undertiered. But this is a useless discussions. Thre are so many aircraft which are under- or overtiered. But the problem is that Gaijin no longer changes SB battle ratings during the normal battle rating change intervals. The have not done so in ages and the last time they did was during the unscheduled change when they decided that hight tier aircraft have their battle ratings decided solely based on their armament sometime early last year.

There should be discussion as long as this on why they are no longer being adjusted.