United Korean Helicopter Tech Tree

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
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  • No
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1. Background of the proposal

A. The potential of a standalone tree


The United Korean Ground Forces Tech Tree suggestion has been passed to the devs.


In the Old forum, original suggestion has gained significant consent from the community.

From ‘Answering Your Questions’ in the WT Official channel, BVV_d mentioned in the affirmative a possibility of Korea being a new nation.

This suggestion, along with the United Korean Ground Forces proposal above, aims to form a independent(stand-alone) faction Korea, like Israel.

To solidify this, I felt the need of providing an aviation tech tree suggestion.


B. Why should it be implemented as a standalone tree?

There are 3 ways to implement South and North Korean vehicles in this game.

  • a. As GE/Pack/BP/Event Premiums: Too much volume of vehicles to implement in this option. The only country with technical relevance to South Korea is the United States, but the United States already has more than enough event vehicles, which makes South Korean event vehicles rather redundant.
  • b. As a sub-tree: Also too much volume of vehicles. Even though it’s implemented as a certain country’s subtree, the top rank tech tree would be overwhelmed by South Korean vehicles which might surpass the implemented nation’s vehicle timeline. North Korea causes a dilemma between the USSR or China, since the historical development of vehicles is not fully dependent on a single nation.
  • c. As a standalone tree: The approach we are proposing in this thread.

Some might ask “Why not implement SK as a subtree for Japan? Japan is suffering from a lack of top tier vehicles!” However, this would cause problems from a historical point of view. For example, one demanding the addition of Egypt/Jordan/Saudi/Syria as a subtree to fill Israel’s lack of equipment could be problematic.

In addition, Japan does not share particular military/technical ties with South Korea. (Unlike South Africa in the UK and Finland in Sweden) So it is not a good idea to claim that Japan can have South Korean equipment without any basis. They just lie side by side on the map. Stona(the CM) is also well aware that Japan and Korea have no technical relevance with each other.

Besides, as explained earlier, top tier vehicle trees will be heavily affected by Korean vehicles in this case. People who claim false technological/political ties between Japan and Korea, do NOT address on this gameplay-related issue nor the fact that they have no technical nor alliance in real life at all. Some people invent lies about ties between Japan and Korea simply to get more vehicles in their main, but neither Koreans nor Japanese want that. As someone who has been interested in Japanese technology and has been grinding Japanese TTs, it would be distasteful to see only Korean-made vehicles technically disconnected from Japan in an update that was expecting new Japanese-made vehicles to come out. I’ve already seen many responses from the Japanese community that they don’t want Korean sub-trees for this reason.

Then, what upsides propel Korea as a standalone tree? To answer this question, I suggest the potential list of more possible vehicles to be added in the higher ranks. Unlike other nation candidates as a standalone tree, Korea is actively developing new indigenous vehicles for both ground and air at this very moment, which means that the tree yields more possible outcomes.


2. Tech tree

A. Overview & Structure


B. KPA Helicopters Branch

Korean People’s Army helicopters are consist of Mi-2 and 500E. However, there are only one missile-Susŏngp’o - has been proven mounted on a North Korean helicopter, and it is a clone of the 9K11 .
However, the 9K11’s performance is not very good, so North Korean helicopters armed with this missile should be compared to the Swedish Hkp 3C with Rb 53.

Mi-2

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500E

The North Korean MD 500 was brought in from 1983 to 1985 through a West German company called Delta Avia Fluggerate GmbH, a ghost company created by Americans and Germans bought into North Korea to smuggle MD 500 helicopters into North Korea.

It even invaded Korean airspace in the early 1980s, when it was imported, but was confirmed to be true by top secret information at the time. If there is a painting disguised as a South Korean MD 500, it will further accentuate the background of a North Korean helicopter intended to confuse South Korea.

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C. Light Helicopter Branch

UH-1H

It was operated by the ROK Navy and was equipped with 14 * 2.75-inch rockets (7 on each side) and illuminating flare launchers.

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SA.319B Allouette III

South Korea operated the SA.319B Allouette III, but I couldn’t find a reference to using an AS.12 with the anti-tank warhead (HEAT) version by South Korea. The only records I could find were the use of the anti-ship warhead (SAPHE) version. So I gave it a strikethrough.

Technically, there’s not much of a difference. But for the reasons mentioned above, I’m negative position about the implementation of this.

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500MD Defender

Recently this has been implemented in this game with Israeli vehicle, but it can be said that it is Korean origin. The Korean government invested the development cost when developing the improved 500MD -the 500MD Defender- giving the 500MD the ability to operate TOW. After Hughes Helicopters sold it to Israel, the South Korean government acquired a royalty of 20,000 dollars per unit from Hughes Helicopters.

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520MK Black Tiger

The 520MK was developed by Korean Air in jointly developed with MDHS(McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Systems) company in the U.S. based on 500MD, and has improved main rotor blades, more high-power engines and advanced navigation/communication equipment, radar warning systems, and hellfire missile operation capabilities. One prototype was built in Oct 1989.

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Light Armed Helicopter

Designed for replacing the Republic of Korea Army(RoKA)’s aged attack helicopter (500MD, AH-1S), the LAH(Light Armed Helicopter) Project is the one that aims to develop a cutting-edge armed helicopter suitable for the modern battlefield. Currently in mass production by Korea Aerospace Industries.

KAI signed a contract with DAPA on December 22, 2022 for the mass production of the LAH, with the first delivery scheduled for December 2024.

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D. Medium/Heavy Helicopter Branch

AH-1J (International)

The AH-1J International is an improved version manufactured based on the AH-1J Sea Cobra for export to Iran, and the biggest difference is its TOW operation capability. It was first exported to Iran, and has since been exported to several countries, including South Korea. Delivered in 1978.

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AH-1S (Early)

The ROK military introduced the AH-1S STEP III in four separate installments since 1988. Although the specifications are the same as the US military’s AH-1F, it was introduced as AH-1S because it was a project that started before the US military renamed AH-1S STEP III to AH-1F. (like JGSDF AH-1S)

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AH-1S (Late)

Later in 2014, in partnership with Orbital ATK, AAR-47 MAW/LWS and AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare dispenser were installed.

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AH-64E Apache Guardian

On May 25 2016, the first AH-64E arrived at Busan Port, and on Jan 9 2017, it was confirmed that the Army took over all of the AH-64E, and on Jan 27 2017, two battalions(36 AH-64E) were operationally deployed under the Army Aviation Operations Command. The Korean AH-64E uses the R1 version of the Hellfire and the H version of the Stinger.


E. Premiums

Mi-8, Mi-17

There are few technical differences. A distinguishing feature in appearance is the tail rotor, with the Mi-8 on the left and the Mi-17 on the right.
It would be nice to sell the Mi-17 as a Golden Eagle and get the Mi-8 (white color painting) as an event.

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AH-1S (C-NITE)

Until 1994, there was no night combat capability other than the night vision goggles that the pilots were directly equipped with, so there were great difficulties in night operations. However, in 1994, C-NITE thermal imaging sighting equipment was introduced as item urgently required project and installed on some aircraft (24 units) to secure night combat capability.

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3. References

https://www.jcs.mil.kr/mbshome/mbs/jcs2/ebook/jcsbook/index.html

https://www.koreaaero.com/KO/data_file/BROCHURE/2021_KAI_brochure_ENG_210528.pdf

https://www.koreaaero.com/EN/Business/LAH.aspx

https://airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/defense-security-exhibitions-news/air-show-2017/adex-2017-news-coverage-report/3816-adex-2017-hanwha-s-taipers-atgm-completed-critical-design-review.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20161107155530/http://www.janes.com/article/63606/dx-korea-2016-hanwha-unveils-tank-sniper-guided-air-to-surface-missile-for-future-south-korean-army-helo-programme

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/defexpo-2020-development-of-hanwha-defenses-chungum-air-launched-atgm-to-be-completed-by-end-of-2020

https://youtu.be/G0zFW3G1_Zo (DAPA Official Channel)

http://www.koreascience.kr/article/JAKO199141548244488.pdf

http://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO199841548283139.pdf

https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200041847897821.pdf

https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200141548512331.pdf

https://www.koreaaero.com/KO/upload_images/prCenter/7/7회_김기정.pdf

https://kr.img.news.koreanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/1권-통사.pdf

https://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/newsWeb/20140522/4/BBSMSTR_000000010023/view.do

https://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/newsWeb/20181031/9/BBSMSTR_000000100010/view.do

https://www.mbn.co.kr/news/politics/1286100

https://www.hankyung.com/news/article/1996101701111

https://www.seoul.co.kr/news/newsView.php?id=19961019010002

https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1HQ5T7GD5T

https://mobile.newsis.com/view.html?ar_id=NISX20121213_0011685757

http://www.economytalk.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=30289

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/13_aug2017-birth-of-the-cobra-180963930/

http://web.archive.org/web/20150408010707/https://atk.mediaroom.com/2014-05-08-ATK-Awarded-Contract-by-the-Republic-of-Korea-Army-for-Aircraft-Survivability-Equipment

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/republic-korea-rok-ah-64d-apache-attack-helicopters

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/republic-korea-agm-114r1-hellfire-missiles

https://www.army-technology.com/uncategorised/newssouth-korea-requests-agm-114r1-hellfire-missiles-sale-from-us-4547861/

http://web.archive.org/web/20150810041427/http://www.janes.com/article/50358/raytheon-wins-stinger-contract-for-south-korea-s-apaches

http://www.defensetoday.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=2491

https://m.news.nate.com/view/20220118n15725

https://youtu.be/1VWPuiJAlSA

https://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/newsWeb/20210423/1/BBSMSTR_000000100164/view.do

https://hisntd.com/eng/business/data/Gun-Artillery_Sytems.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA1Wqo9B3QU (SNT Motiv Official Channel)

https://www.sntmotiv.com/kor/prcenter/news.html?code=share_notice&p=&page=1&bbsData=bm89MTkwOQ==||&search=&searchstring=&mode=view

Peoples, K. (1988). Bell Ah-1 Cobra variants (Vol. 4, Ser. Aerofax Datagraph). Aerofax.

Howard M. Hensel. (2020). Air Power in the Indian Ocean and the Western Pacific. Routledge

United States Federal Aviation Administration. (2018). Order 7360.1D Aircraft Type Designators

European Union Aviation Safety Agency. (2020. 8). Assignment Of Aircraft Types To RECAT-EU Wake Turbulence Categories.

7 Likes

Great tech tree but Im surprised that it lacks the AW-159 Wildcat, it even has a suggestion: Agusta Westland AW159 ROK Navy

Equipped with Spike NLOS and Blue Shark Torpedoes, it would be a good addition I think.


2 Likes

Yes, I was aware of the existence of this vehicle, but when I made this suggestion I thought it was too far in the game, so I left it off the list. However, since this game now has the Kh-38MT/ML from SM3, we probably don’t need to be strictly about Spike NLOS.

I’m waiting for news on the MAH-1, which is scheduled to be rolled out later this month and will have its first flight in December, and I will update this proposal when that news comes out.

When that time comes, I’ll be adding three new helicopters to the list, including the AW159, the MAH-1 and another one that I won’t reveal the name until then, just for fun.

1 Like

Sub tree for Japan would be cool since south Korea isn’t with NATO

In your world, Japan has joined NATO, right?

1 Like

No…? I’m saying that a south Korean sub tree for Japan since there NOT in NATO

If so, there is no logic here.

1 Like

In your world south korea is in NATO?

anyways +1! Cool idea

Of course not. But you’re the one who mentioned NATO. What does being in NATO have to do with why Korea should be a subtree of Japan?

1 Like

wait is this North Korea heli? Also what does a Technical Moderator do? I am thinking of applying for a job with War Thunder

United Korea.

TMs review bug reports in CBR and forward valid reports to developers. Everything else is like a normal player.

1 Like

Subtree for Japan would be really cool, but I’d rather that wasn’t Korea.

ASEAN nations can provide a subtree as well without the level of dislike there still is between Korea and Japan.

Korea could make a nice tree with North and South Korea together.

1 Like

Bro That’s like saying Ukraine would be a good sub tree for USSR. Since USSR use to “own” Ukraine.

I am currently quite confused, how is the relationship between both Korea similar to the relationship between Ukraine and the Soviet Union?

For someone who claims for SK subtree for Japan to say something like this… can I laugh?

2 Likes

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

You do also have the option of adding one or two more DPRK helicopters and altering their BRs: North Korean Helicopter Sub-Tree

Z-5 is an easy addition, and North Korea also used the Ka-28 which I didn’t include, but could be another 7.7-ish option.

MD 500 has the option to mount an AGS-30 as well as (at least) 2x 9M111-2 missiles (+ 2x 9M14), so could be raised in BR to 8.3-ish.

The Hyŏksin-2 (Mi-2) could be given their new TV-guided missile and raised in BR to 9.0-ish.

I also wonder why you’ve got the Mi-8/-17 at 8.7? In KPAAF service they’ve only been seen with rocket pods, not bombs or the 9M17M missiles that are on the 8.3 Mi-8TB/TV in-game. They probably could mount 9M14s though.

2 Likes

I will consider the Z-5.

I’m a bit skeptical about your expected BR, because in my experience the 9M14M on the BMP-1 and the Rb 53 on the Swedish Hkp 3C are not… so good playable performances. :( So I don’t think two 9M14s can justify a BR of 8.3/9.0 for two helicopters. By the way, where did you find the name Hyŏksin-2?

To be honest, I don’t really remember now - it’s been around since I first posted this suggestion in the old forum, and I may have overestimated the performance of the Mi-8/17 back then. I agree that North Korea’s Mi-8/17 should only be equipped with rocket pods, as there is no evidence that North Korea has integrated missiles into these two helicopters.

However, I’m currently busy adjusting to a new job IRL, so I’ll update this suggestion after roll-out or first flight of MAH-1 in the news. (According to news reports so far, the MAH-1’s roll-out is scheduled for late October, with the first flight in December.)

1 Like

Ah, no, my argument was that the BR should be raised due to the AGS-30 and the 9M111-2. The only other loadout that’s been seen for the MD 500 is 4x 9M14s, which would place it squarely at 8.0. The 9M111-2 has a slightly shorter range but has higher pen, and the AGS could deal with open-top vehicles. And there’s also a high likelihood it could be fitted with 4 9M111s, just hasn’t been seen like that. Although maybe it would still be fine at 8.0 🤷‍♂️

The Hyŏksin-2 at 9.0 is predicated upon it only being equipped with the new missile. Nothing about the missile is known though – potentially an air-based version of their new NLOS ATGM (known commonly as Bulsae-4, although definitely not called that in DPRK service)? That was revealed in 2018 and the TV-missile in 2016. But it’s pure speculation just to give the DPRK branch a better helicopter than a max 8.3 one.

From here: - Vol. 1, No. 9 - September 2010

Plus ‘The Armed Forces of North Korea’ briefly mentions the name