Those are Strike aircraft and not fighters, so their ability to hit ground targets is by far the most important thing.
That’s like saying one fighter is better than the other since it can carry more dumb bombs lol.
None should be trying to dogfight, but you always need to be able to defend yourself. This is where the Torando struggles the most and mostly because its missing all of its tools to do so. But the main reason for its 11.0 BR is flat line speed + 9Ls and less so the ability to hit 2 bases/bomb load. Remove the 9Ls and I reckon 10.7 would be about right for it. In the absence of the mile long list of missing features for the Torando, that might be the quickest and easiest way to “fix” the premium tornado.
I’ll do a full test to check the speeds as best as I can
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The tornado’s problem also lies in the fact that the phantom s1 or even the E are faster than it,such a phantom with an almost full tank of gasoline,plus air-air missiles attached and unguided, it is still faster than a tornado,Which has 30 mines of gsoline, and 4 bombs and flares and 2 rockets,often, even if they have a minimal payload, it is difficult to fly to the base and destroy it.
Alt 300m
Tornado: 45 mins of fuel
Jaguar: 30 mins of fuel
Fuel set to unlimited
Tornado Gr1 (2x Boz, 2x Aim-9L)
1.14M / 1393 kph
Tornado Gr1 (12x Mk83, 2x Boz, 2x 9Ls) (2x Bases) (Mk83 is the standard bomb for the other Tornados)
1.03M/ 1257 kph
Tornado Gr1 (12x Mk13, 2x Boz, 2x 9Ls) (2.4x bases) (Mk13 is Britain exclusive, slightly more drag)
1.03M/ 1257 kph
Tornado Gr1 (8x Mk83, 2x Boz, 2x Drop tanks, 2x 9Ls) (1.33x bases) (my usual loadout)
1.04M / 1276 kph (with tanks) 1.05M / 1284 kph (without tanks)
Tornado Gr1 (5x Mk13, 2x Boz, 2x 9Ls) (1x base) (Min load)
1.07M . 1311 KPH
British Tornado has slightly less thrust than the other 4, approx 270 kgf
Jaguar Gr1A (2x Aim-9G)
1.04M / 1279 kph
Jaguar Gr1A (6x Mk13s, 2x Aim-9G) (1.2x Bases) (Min load)
0.99M / 1204 kph
Jaguar Gr1A (6x Mk13s, 2x CRV7 pods, 2x Aim-9G) 1.2x Bases with bombs) (“max” symetrical loadout with Aim-9)
0.98M / 1197 kph
Jaguar Gr1A (8x Mk13) (1.6x Bases) (Debate whether it should be able to take 9Gs with this loadout as well iirc)
0.98M / 1193 kph
Bear in mind the Jaguar Gr1A is 10.3 but also has 2x GBUs and a Thermal T-pod, would likely be 10.0 without that
Mk83 = 6 to kill a base
Mk13 = 5 to kill a base
So I was a little off in places, but I still dont think 10.7 would be unreasonable for the WTD61. Though would prefer my option 2 and have the Tornados actually finished
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Yeah, The British Phantoms are a lot faster than the Tornado at the same BR, and about the same with bombs. Biggest issue for me is the uptier. I dont “mind” the Tornado having a tricky time with the 11/11.3s Thats to be expected. I hate trying to evade Su-27s, F-15s, etc. Even in SB where I can “hide” its hard work.
And that’s the problem with a tornado,the assumption is that you are supposed to be a fast attack aircraft,but the problem is that fighter planes a generation below you are better than you,whether in the cargo carried, speed with cargo and the ability to defend against other aircraft,Tornado has nothing at the moment, it makes no sense on 11.0, and you say that if they finished it and fixed it, it might be very good.
Even just looking at CM count. At the moment you have 56 (28 per pod)
IRL, those pods had 28 Flares and 600 chaff.
The full chaff count is blocked due to game limitations, but even a compromise amount, like doubling the CMs to allow for 56 Flares and 56 Chaff would be a massive buff. You could be far more spammy with flares.
The Tornados FM could also be finished, that is about 60% improvment to turn rate at low speeds and about 5% increase at high speed. (would be a massive QoL improvement for those lower speed situations)
Radar, CBUs, etc would all be pretty handy but less impactful in ARB. Really whats needed for ARB is a gamemode overhaul.
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I have a question, what kind of tornado did the Germans operate apart from what’s in the game,And can we expect that the next versions will have any better performance? I’m only talking about Germany.
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I don’t know why they go sorry in game limitation so they are all flare pod and chaff pod now but no Britain can’t have anything nice
@x_Shini will know more about the German Tornados than me
But they are mostly just upgraded loadouts (like IRIS-T instead of Aim-9). Not massive Airframe overhauls though.
Some aircraft suggestions that have been submitted:
Only one for Germany so far:
But you can compare what we have in game with other nations and Germany would have something similar
Britain:
Italy:
Germany would have aircraft similar to Italy’s I think
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Yeah, though at least we should be getting BOL rails, which I think will be RAF only
I wonder what these limitations are and why it is such a problem,In War Thunder there is already F-15 or Gripen which has probably about 1.5k flares and chaff, 750 flares and 750 chaff,And I wonder why 600 in a tornado is a problem.
All Countermeasures are handled as 1 thing, CMs. Not as seperate flares and chaff. In the Gripen/ Harrier Gr7, etc case. They have BOL rails, which could be configured for either flares or chaff or mixed. Most aircraft in game have nearly 50/50 split between flare and chaff or at least close enough. So it doesnt matter too much if they have more flares than they might IRL. or something.
In the Tornado’s case. Its the 1256 CM count. If you ran flare only, that would be truly OP. Suggestions have been made on how to mitigate this without massively nerfing it. But alas. they have fallen on deaf ears.
If we do ever get properly split flares and chaff, then a lot of aircraft are gunna get changes. Sea harrier has 60 CMs, I think IRL it was like 20 flares and 40 chaff. So it would get a little nerf. part of the reason why its probably not been done yet, only the Tornados truly suffer from it
I’ve noticed that Thunder’s war has become more and more intense lately,suffers from technological limitations and often many things do not work or are not in the game,and it causes frustration, it’s a pity, I hope they will fix it someday.
Yeah, its 10 year old code/game design, originally created for dogfighting props being adapted to Gen 4 missile trucks. The entire game needs some major major TLC
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Overall, I don’t know if I think so,that the Tornado uses more gasoline than other planes at WEP.
I dont know, I think they were quite fuel thirst IRL. From a Book I read by a Sea Harrier FA2 pilot. They often did fights against Tornado F3s and was always annoyed that the Tornado F3s had to go refuel constantly, often after 1 dogfight, whilst he could routinely do 2 or maybe even 3 on 1 tank. They were quite fuel thirsty aircraft. But what we lack in game is far finer control over our reheat. at the moment its basically on or off. IRL, you had far greater control and AB was not an on or off thing (you can just about achieve low AB settings, which gives more thrust but not as much fuel burn, but its tricky and best with either a HOTAS or a mouse wheel set to low senstivity
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@Morvran yeah you are out of luck, the tornados didnt receive avionic upgrades, no new engines or anything to fly better. Only thing we will get are
Aim 9L(i) , should be added to existing ones
Irist-T
ECm pod cerberus, csn be added to existinf aircraft
MAWs pod upgraded Bo pod with new rwr and maws system and balanced countermeasure number
Jdams, just smaller gbus
MW-1 Funny cluster dispenser /mines
Taurus cruise missle
Glide bombs
Harms
Besides jdams its questionable what would get implemented
Tornados wont realy be strong at any point they were added way to late
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I tested on F-15 and tornado,Gasoline consumption on WEP, F-15 with 30 minutes of fuel and 2 rockets under the wings at an altitude of 1 km,At WEP it was able to fly for 5:19.36,Tornado fuel 30 minutes 2 rockets under the wings at an altitude of 1 km,on WEP it was able to fly for a time of 4:02.79,as you can see, a tornado uses a lot of gasoline.
Speed is also a defensive mechanism, considering your goal with both of those is to get to the bases as soon as possible, drop your load and maybe get a kill on your way back on some oblivious player.
From my experience playing several base bombers, most of the times that you get swarmed by multiple people is after you drop your bombs, so at that point any defense that isn’t holding W and running away is really hard to accomplish.
Nice speed analysis. I will do the same but with Su-22M3 (20 min of fuel, unlimited):
1x R-60 and 8x 500kg (2x bases)
1143 kmh / 0.93M
6x R-60 and 6x 500kg (1.5x bases)
1183 kmh / 0.96M
6x R-60 and 4x 500kg (1x base)
1220 kmh / 0.99M
6x R-60 and no bombs
1360 kmh / 1.11M
It is slightly faster than Jaguar when loaded but has way less CMs and a really shitty targeting system, meaning your guided ammo will be of a really limited use. Both of those are much worse for ARB than WTD61 and shouldn’t share the same BR (even with 9Gs instead of 9Ls).
In my opinion, moving WTD61 down without doing changes to other aircraft would cause more issues than it would solve.
This is where I agree with you.
Current ARB is a mess that has no limitations whatsoever. Your team can consist of base bombers only, with only a couple of the fastest ones will get to profit from actually destroying bases, while others will be left with useless bomb load and subpar AA capabilities practically ruining their game.
We either need limits on how many aircraft can carry anti-ground ammo or just increase eHP of bases tenfold, either by increasing their number or total health.
But this is an issue for another thread…