I didn’t say they can’t speak out, I’m all for different perspectives.
Just make sure you recognise your own biases, as someone who only plays USA in air, has skipped most of the tech-tree, and has focused gameplay around a few choice premiums. What do you know about skill thresholds in lower BRs? Point is, most players can ‘git gud’ at top-tier air if they wanted to and put their time into it. But if they unlock a few modifications after the stock grind and then start getting familiar with FOX3, and still find the gameplay unrewarding, boring and stale? Why would they continue playing it?
I myself, am primarily a ground player. But I’ve had top-tier jets unlocked for quite a while. I recently unlocked the Barak II, jumped in doing the stock grind with no chaff and having neglected air battles since FOX3 were added. I got my ass handed to me, I just wasn’t gelling with flying a fat F-16 and using the Derby missile. But then I started adapting tactics and getting more familiar with everything, and I started getting kills (still only have chaff unlocked - need to research missiles, etc) and started clawing back my KDR in it, but I noticed that even when I was getting kills I just wasn’t having fun or enjoying the matches. Instead of fixing up my KDR and spading the Barak, I simply just stopped using it after 27 battles. I went back to the Ayit/Shahak and Nesher. Point is, if you make the gameplay engaging, then players will put the time and effort into it. Most well-adjusted or even semi-adjusted individuals don’t mind being bad or average at something as long as the gameplay is engaging. Top-tier simply isn’t.
I don’t blame such replies given the title of this topic. It discounts that other missiles like the PL-12 are quite workable and have their strengths over the AIM120 in certain situations that you need to account for.
hey gues what ? There is an option for a 12 vs 12 match so you don’t have to face 16 people at once
Rafale is perfectly usable and is actually a really decent plane in the current meta. Don’t try to use it like a F15E, because it’s not what it’s designed for in Warthunder. Trying to apply IRL logic doesn’t work either, again, because this is warthunder.
Yes, the top tier gameplay of AMRAAM spammer is incredibly stupid, and can offer results at almost no effort. It doesn’t make the other planes bad. Long range AMRAAM are completely useless on a player with two braincells.
That said, the entire gameplay loop of taking off > merging with 16 players > ending the game in 5 minutes is incredibly bad and needed a rework 5 years ago. Until then, it is possible to have fun with Fox 3 planes regardless if you like the planes. I definitely prefer using them in Sim however.
Skill issue. Rafale is amazing.
When I read the title I thought you were talking about top tier Russia and I would have 100% agreed there.
An option that doesn’t work very well.
I think the max should be 10v10 for 13.0+, and 12v12 for all other jet BRs.
It’s in your quote dude
That extends to R-77 carriers, don’t be so focused on one thing next time.
Only things at top tier (13.7 and 14.0) without AMRAAMs (or equivalent) are Mirage 2000-5F, UK Gripen and Su-27SM (/J-11A). MIrage and Rafale are amazing. UK’s Gripen is kinda bad. This only leaves the Su-27SM (and J-11A) which I will agree is atrocious.
None of these were mentioned except the Rafale. Which is very ironic because it’s the best out of the ones listed. UK and China also have much better planes available besides the Gripen and the J-11A. There is no reason to play them. That’s why I said if this was about Russian top tier I would understand and agree.
All I am saying is that you don’t need AMRAAMs (or similar) to not have an “awful” experience.
I have mentioned R-77 carriers in my comment. Well at least one of the two.
Sure the M2K and Rafale are good but are effectively useless outside of 20km, same extends to R-77 carriers. Thats what the post is about, AMRAAMs and equivalents reign free at range. It doesn’t matter your opinion on how good the Rafale is, it’s undeniable that it simply cannot compete effectively in BVR.
Fighting over who has it worse is useless, sure Russian top tier is in a pretty bad place right now but the Rafale was the example he chose. The Rafale suffers the same issues in BVR that Russia does, so it really doesn’t matter. He could have chosen the SAAF JAS39 and the point would be the exact same.
Focusing on the issues of one nation undermines the goals of everyone else who wants to compete in BVR. So is it really so much to say that Russia isn’t the only nation that suffers in that category?
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Honestly, anything above 9.7/9.3 is a waste of time to play.
If everything above ~11.0 was cut out of the game and BVR maps removed, then air trees would have a satisfying end, but sadly Gajin would never let something like that happen.
I agree that these planes are at a huge disadvantage at range. However there is a lot you can do outside of BVR. OP says all you get to shot at is scraps, but I find that far from the truth.
EDIT: I added the part below
Kinda. Russia is the only nation that suffers in that category.
I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree here
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I would not expect any changes in gameplay. Many players love disbalanced PVP gameplay, and gaijin follows this lead.
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Last top tier air RB meta that I personally enjoyed was f16 vs mig29 (9-12)
After that we got IRCCM cancer which was still managable, annoying at first but managable once you figured it out.
Then the got the multipath change, personally not the greatest fan of it but people were bored of deck-hugging meta, therefore understandable.
Then we got ARH missiles, IMO that was the final blow for this gamemode at top tier.
Fly up, dump your load, turn out, pray that you killed enough shit so the enemy team folds faster than yours.
Close or clutchable games in top tier, maybe 1 in like 25.
Thats not a gameplay loop I enjoy, sorry to say.
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Oh wow this is definitely the take of someone that doesn’t know.
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Then expand my knowledge instead of telling someone who doesn’t know that they don’t know.
How can the rafale be effective in a BVR environment and not have to rely on eating the scraps of the enemy team after the initial engagement.
There are planes with their own “unique” playstyle, like the sea vixen. But the sea vixen never has to come in 5 minutes late to the game, it can fight with the team.
Then we have aircraft like the Rafale, which do not fit the meta at all, and if replaced by an F-15E in the team, the team would be better off.
We can catch some battles together soon if youd like as Its easier to show you than tell you. But really long story short youre worrying about the wrong things and are trying to force an aircraft to be something it isnt. The meta is easy enough to ignore and counter.
The videos ive seen of people explaining how to use the rafale all are using notching to get in close.
Notching shouldn’t be a primary strategy. I just don’t think its viable
Just tried what everyone does in their videos and climb to like 5k, and then notch the incoming aim120’s.
Got hit in the tail and went down. It’s not like i dont know how to notch, i did it in DCS. It’s just there are way more missiles from way too many angles.
Download the OIAAIOAIA RWR sound mod it makes it 100x better
You get a personal DJ upon launches