The British Mini-Typhoon the BAe EAP

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP

The EAP in flight.

Before anyone comments to inform me that the EAP was rejected (I know, I made the proposal), this thread exists for me to document my sources and for other individuals who are fans of the EAP or would like to see it in game to deposit theirs, this is done in accordance with Smin’s response to myself which said the EAP would be fine in the machinery of war category but with the current provided information did not fit the criteria for a suggestion. My aim is to further explore the EAP as an option and potentially source information which would make the EAP applicable.

The EAP

The BAe EAP was a cranked delta-winged, foreplaned and high agile technology demonstrator for what would become the Eurofighter Typhoon, this aircraft itself was a development of the prior BAe P.110 aircraft intended for export to Middle Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia. This aircraft took features from prior BAe developments and put them into one lightweight, versatile and advanced package making its flying debut in 1986 and serving as a demonstrator until 1991.

Its place in War Thunder is as a supremely agile, high performance fighter aircraft for the British Top Tier aviation tree, any aircraft that would engage the EAP outside of BVR will find themselves struggling to compete with the highest T/W in the game combined with phenomenal acceleration, stall characteristics and systems fusion. It stands as a contemporary to the 12.0 aircraft of other nations such as F14, F16 and Mig 29 of which all trees feature aside from Sweden who akin to GB have no 12.0 and France who have their own in the form of the Mirage 2000-5F.

This aircraft carried no weapons however it did carry weighted (during flight) full sized mockups of specified BAe products including missiles and a gun. In addition the flight data recorder took the space of the radar and provided a nose-weight akin to a radar. Although the P.110 was intended to carry a multirole armament this aircraft (the EAP) was never shown with such ordnance mock-up or otherwise so i will not detail them and as such the EAP is a purely air to air fighter.

The aircraft features a cranked delta wing design together with foreplanes to give it the aoa found in Mig-21 series aircraft coupled with the energy retention improvements found on the J7E.

The aircraft is based on the BAe Jaguar, Tornado and Harrier in addition to the P.110.

History of the EAP

The P.110 was revised before construction could begin of the ordered 6 prototypes after interest was confirmed by Italy and Germany as the P.110 had previously been an entirely private venture without funding from even the British MOD. Though both nations were slated to provide financial backing neither did, Germany however did provide research on the air intakes which included ventral intakes to improve the aircrafts supersonic and stall performance however they then pulled out of the programme leaving the venture entirely funded by Britain. This resulted in Tornado engines being recycled for use and the aft fuselage originally to be developed by Germany being instead developed by BAe which included a modified Tornado tail which redesigned and coupled with the much smaller frame of the EAP resulted in significantly better control responsiveness of the rudder something the Tornado had notably struggled with.

Specifications

Role: Pre-Production Prototype/fighter

Crew: 1 (Pilot)

Number Built: 1 (ZF534)

Length: 48 ft 2.75 in (14.7003 m)

Wingspan: 38 ft 7 in (11.76 m)

Wing Area: 560 sq ft (52 m2)

Height: 18 ft 1.5 in (5.525 m)

Empty weight: 22,050 lb (10,002 kg)

Max Takeoff Weight: 32,000 lb (14,515 kg)

Powerplant: 2 × Turbo-Union RB199-104D 3-spool turbofan engine, 9,000 lbf (40 kN) thrust each dry, 17,000 lbf (76 kN) with afterburner. Tornado engines with the thrust reversers removed.

Radar system: The BAe P.110 was directly intended to use the Tornado ADV’s Foxhunter Stage 2 2G Radar and as a development of the P.110 the EAP would feature the same Foxhunter Radar as found on the Tornado ADV this would also affect armament. Furthermore in the cockpit of the EAP a radar and MAWS scope is shown however obviously no data is fed into this as the aircraft lacked a radar the MFD was designed with 14 modes with several dedicated to ‘assault weaponry’.

Maximum speed: Mach 2 at 11,000 m (36,100 ft), Mach 1.2 at sea level

G-limits: +9/-3 (Note similar to the Sepecat Jaguar ACT the EAP utilised fly by wire controls later found on the Eurofighter including flight control computers, these utilised the various control surfaces to bring the maximum performance possible to the aircraft, however these would also result in the EAP and Eurofighter being unable to rip their wings due to their flight control systems)

Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,000 m)

Thrust to weight ratio: 1:1.5

AOA: 35 degrees

Roll Rate: 200 degrees/second

BR: 12.0

Nation: Great Britain

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP

The EAP blueprint?

The EAP is seen here with 2 aft mounted airbrakes, it was later given a Typhoon-style dorsal airbrake which was only used after it was grounded as it was static and inoperable in the air to test its effectiveness in wind tunnels, as it required its airbrakes for complex maneuvers as seen in the Paris air show it was only changed after the aircraft was firmly associated with the upcoming Eurofighter Typhoon.

Armament

1 x Mauser BK 27mm cannon 180 rounds as seen on the Tornado or 150 as seen on the Eurofighter

4 x Skyflash SuperTEMP (The SuperTEMP was developed in 1988 and as we are going with proposed armament the standard Skyflash would have been useable but phased out as was seen in the Tornado, therefore SuperTEMP’s should be as available as a researchable modification). Theoretically it could have mounted further AIM-7 derivatives but coupled with the inarguably fantastic IR missiles and flight performance SuperTEMP’s should be satisfactory if a little subpar.

2 x ASRAAM

2 x BOL countermeasure sidewinder rails totalling 320 x flares/chaff

This section I do admit is not historically backed but is a potential armament scenario based on the very obvious mock-up weaponry.

With reference to the countermeasures none were officially slated for use but the UK had a number available to them, having priorly domestically manufactured the F4 Phantom and the Harrier GR.3, the same years the EAP was flying and further developed (1986-1991) the Harrier GR.7 began to receive BOL pylons which are compatible with any sidewinder capable missile rail and simply requiring software of which the EAP was incredibly future proofed, there is no reason why the EAP couldn’t mount them.

For radar and RWR purposes, the EAP would receive the Foxhunter stage 2G which would fit in the radome, furthermore it would receive the same avionics passage as the Panavia Tornado including the RWR as this was to be used on the aircraft the EAP was developed from and therefore would be able to carry over to the EAP.

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP

As seen here the Technical layout of the EAP in addition to proposed weapons

EAP unique Features

Given its’ use of the ASRAAM the EAP would feature a HMD as this was developed specifically and in conjunction with the ASRAAM.

The EAP is unable to rip its wings due to its software systems, no permanent damage can be induced.

The EAP features 13 control surfaces which interact with each other and the pilot to gain the maximum possible performance.

Foreplanes can depress to -80 degrees functioning as an airbrake similar to what is seen on the SAAB Gripen, this is because the Gripen is co-developed by BAE using the same technology demonstrator (The EAP).

The EAP features an early variant of the fully encasing Typhoon G-suit which provided pressure to the chest and the legs to increase G-tolerance to the same level as other fighters whilst performing drastically higher G maneuvers, something unique to the Typhoon and its predecessor.

Forplanes in addition to leading edge slats, variable thrust provided by the engine systems, and the ventral intakes provide the aircraft with the notable handling at both supersonic speeds common with delta wings and at stall speeds where delta winged aircraft tend to ‘dead fish’ and ‘drift’ enabling the aircraft to have characteristics akin to thrust vectoring and enabling automatic management of split throttle manoeuvres in conjunction with the rudder.

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No armament was ever fitted nor any of the systems required for any armament was fitted - only dummy stores were used, fitted on dummy pylons (ie the pylons had no systems fitted for release, arming, etc).

Nor was any radar fitted - the radome was used to house flight test instruments.

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Thankyou, I am aware of this is why this isn’t in the suggestions tab, see the bold comment. Regardless of whether its applicable, it is a machine- designed to aid in the development of a machine of war.

I’m primarily using this space as an area for sources etcetera, and because I have another user who would like an open place to pitch in with his sources. Plus its a place for me to gather proposal criteria such as the fact that it doesn’t matter if it actually carried them in service, what matters is intent. Of which I have vague exploratory proof.

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Well that’s easy too - there was never any intent for it to carry weapons

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That’s debatable. Official sources never deny or affirm the claim but its stated by some secondary sources that the purpose of the low-drag carried mock-ups was to assure the UK government that the necessary replacement for the FGR. Phantom in UK service could be completed domestically if the Eurofighter programme failed. Hence the fact that is carried weighted mock-ups, the MFD had no less than 7 features dedicated to ‘assault weapons’ and could have been ‘easily modified with a software update’ to include these features.

Rules are bent for certain cases, this is bending and not breaking rules. But either way I’m not here to debate its viability as of yet. Currently, as i have said, my aim is to document sources, and to give my other friend a place for his own sources.

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And what are those “secondary sources”, since you are so keen on documentation?

BAe itself states unequivocally that no radar or FIRE CONTROL systems were fitted - or indeed any military equipment at all!!

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/british-aerospace-eap----experimental-aircraft-programme

image

So it would take a sherd load more than some vague “software updates” to unspecified “features” to give it any combat load at all.

And you post in a public forum you get whatever replies people choose to make.

A retired BAe Systems Design engineer, I’m trying to find some method of officiating or making an official inquest. If i had this information as a paper source, i would’ve already submitted this as a proposal. This post exists so that if anyone else has a similar source, they can share it.

I didn’t deny this, I also mention this in the post itself.

I am not debating this, however, according to Smin, if the aircraft was explored or planned to have been equipped with weaponry, then it satisfies the prototype label and can be added.

I didn’t tell you to stop commenting, or even mildly imply that you shouldn’t reply here. The more holes made in my proposal, the more options i have to explore and the less faith I have in the proposal addition, meaning my efforts can be focused elsewhere.

However it would take ‘a sherd load more than some vague’ ‘F-5C is an F-5A family of aircraft, all F-5A aircraft were available for retrofit with countermeasures.’ to retrofit an F-5C with countermeasures.

Again I will re-iterate, this as of current is not intended as a vehicle proposal, but more as a data-bank for anyone who wishes to contribute (or poke holes) in this proposal. If anything at all it is an educational post about the BAe EAP and the potential (or lack-thereof) for the aircraft to have fulfilled a combat duty should the Eurofighter Typhoon Programme have fallen through.

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I concede we are getting annoying. I main Germany nowadays, Britain serves essentially no purpose in-game.

Unfortunately the nation is very, very shit to play overall. So I would expect more malding, but not from me, i’m done beating this dead horse.

Yak141, and f16aj

Neither did the sea meteor and the later swift also didn’t have the gun configuration it gets in game. I think the kikka also had the 1 gun but I may be wrong on that. So there is precedent.

It’s been confirmed by the mods EAP will never be added to the game.

My point still stands

Tell that to the YaK-141.

cough cough YaK-141 cough

This forum is a democracy of hipocracy

And yet we have the “Yak-141”. Not even with it’s actually planned for radars, our variant has IRST that wasn’t even prepared for any built version.

1 Like

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP 1

Britains EAP

The BAe EAP or ‘Experimental aircraft for the Agile Combat Aircraft’ (EAP) was a British prototype for a future highly agile fighter to replace the UK’s aging fleet of F-4 phantoms and to deliver a fighter with the armament of the Tornado ADV interceptor. It featured a cranked delta-wing, foreplanes and was supremely agile, this aircraft itself was a development of the prior BAe P.110 and ACA aircraft intended for export to Middle Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia who wanted an agile aircraft with commonality with the Tornado. This aircraft took features from prior BAe developments and put them into one lightweight, versatile and advanced package making its flying debut in 1986 and serving as a demonstrator until 1991.

It was intended to be further brought up to full-scale weapons compatibility, with work started but not finished. However I propose it receive it’s entire weapons loadout in-game to give the UK a domestic top tier option.

Combat features of the EAP/ACA:

The EAP/ACA had been designed with deliberate features to support conversion into a fully functional pre-production prototype, it sold all of BAe’s newest and greatest technologies and had it have been finished, likely would have been the best fighter of the 20th century, below are a list of major features, which amount to partial conversion of the airframe beyond the level of a civilian aircraft.

Spoiler

The first of these combat conversion considerations was the radome which was literally that of the Tornado ADV. The flight data recorder took the space of the radar and provided a nose-weight akin to a radar (687kg of ballast possible, where Foxhunter stage 2G weighs around 300kg) however the EAP’s radome was quite literally the same as the Tornado ADV with a ‘skirt’ rather than the latch found on the ADV and therefore could house the Foxhunter Stage 2G radar.

Next was the avionics bay, which up until EAP was restructured into Eurofighter, was intended to be rebuilt (albeit heavier), to house the full Tornado ADV avionics systems, as well as those new systems introduced by the FBW Jaguar and EAP.

The EAP drew heavily from the Tornado and this was due to Germany and Italy (who were supposed to be partners) leaving the project and instead observing the project. As such the UK designed EAP to fit it’s specifications and those of P.110 and ACA. For this reason EAP used a full Tornado’s fin, altered to be ‘dry’, but it did still retain the housing for the RWR.

The EAP used BAe’s cockpit design based on the P.110 and ACA, which was based on the cockpit BAe had designed for the F-16 just prior, this meant it had a fully functioning MFD with settings for things like a radar scope, and RWR display.

EAP’s software, being based on that of FBW Jaguar and the Tornado ADV, was fully capable of the functions required for the operation of weapons systems though they were removed for reasons of maintaining a minimal avionics load, with the intention to add them after the avionics bay had been finished.

Originally EAP had a pylon mount on the wingtip, this had a mockup of an AIM-9L Sidewinder, however in the interest of mounting ASRAAM’s, the pylon position was altered from wingtip, to underwing mounts close to the wingtips, the pylon was replaced with a French Wingtip and a revised ASRAAM position.

History of the EAP

Spoiler

Taking its initial rooting in the P.110 aircraft intended to be sold to Saudi Arabia, it was to be a multi-role aircraft to provide an agile alternative to the Tornado ADV. Development continued until similarities with Germany’s TKF-90 emerged and similar requirements set out by France prompted the merging of the projects with Italy and Spain to form the European Fighter Aircraft programme. Political rivalries and differing design expectations led to Britain solely financing the ACA/EAP and taking design lead over that project.

The P.110 was revised before construction could begin of the ordered 6 prototypes after interest was confirmed by Italy and Germany as the P.110 had previously been an entirely private venture without funding from even the British MOD. Though both nations were slated to provide financial backing neither did, Germany however did provide research on the air intakes which included ventral intakes to improve the aircrafts supersonic and stall performance however they then pulled out of the programme leaving the venture entirely funded by Britain. This resulted in Tornado engines being recycled for use and the aft fuselage originally to be developed by Germany being instead developed by BAe who reverted to the UK’s new preference for a single modified Tornado tail which redesigned marginally and coupled with the much smaller frame of the EAP resulted in significantly better control responsiveness of the rudder something the Tornado had notably struggled with.

This aircraft carried no weapons operationally, however it did carry weighted (during flight) full sized mockups of specified BAe products and had provisions for the features found on 4th generation military aircraft such as RWR and Radar. It was designed to fully meet the capabilities outlined by the AST’s leading to P.110 which in short, were for a Tornado ADV that could dogfight.

The aircraft had a vast array of combat considerations as it was intended to be retrofitted with armament in stage 2 of its development process. Whilst this was never completed owing to the EAP project being merged with the Eurofighter Consortium with BAe taking a major stake, the provisions and start of the work means it suits the definition of an unfinished prototype. Which is a prototype which must be partially constructed, with vehicle specific parts built, here the entire aircraft was built, and was awaiting avionics and systems fitting before this process was halted, in light of future development.

The aircraft is based on the BAe FBW Jaguar, Tornado and Harrier in addition to the P.110 and ACA projects and even the BAe Jet Provost.

Specifications

Role: Pre-Production Prototype/Fighter

Crew: 1 (Pilot)

Number Built: 1 (ZF534)

Length: 48 ft 2.75 in (14.7003 m)

Wingspan: 38 ft 7 in (11.76 m)

Wing Area: 560 sq ft (52 m2)

Height: 18 ft 1.5 in (5.525 m)

Empty weight: 22,050 lb (10,002 kg)

Max Takeoff Weight: 32,000 lb (14,515 kg)

Powerplant: 2 × Turbo-Union RB199-104D 3-spool turbofan engine, 9,000 lbf (40 kN) thrust each dry, 17,000 lbf (76 kN) with afterburner. Tornado engines with the thrust reversers removed.

Radar system: Foxhunter Stage 2G, the requirements outlined by P.110, ACA and the design all mandate carriage of a Foxhunter Radar System as is standard of the Tornado ADV and simultaneous upgrade to the same standard as current ADV’s.

Maximum speed: Mach 2 at 11,000 m (36,100 ft), Mach 1.2 at sea level

G-limits: +9/-3:
(Note similar to the Sepecat Jaguar ACT the EAP utilised fly by wire controls later found on the Eurofighter including flight control computers, these utilised the various control surfaces to bring the maximum performance possible to the aircraft, however these would also result in the EAP and Eurofighter being unable to rip their wings due to their flight control systems)

Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,000 m)

Thrust to weight ratio: 1:1.5

AOA: 35 degrees

Roll Rate: 200 degrees/second

Nation: Great Britain

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP 1

The EAP is seen here with 2 aft mounted airbrakes, it was later given a Typhoon-style dorsal airbrake which was only used after it was grounded as it was static and inoperable in the air to test its effectiveness in wind tunnels, as it required its airbrakes for complex manoeuvres as seen in the Paris air show it was only changed after the aircraft was firmly associated with the upcoming Eurofighter Typhoon rather than the ACA/P.110

Armament

1 x Mauser BK 27mm cannon 180 rounds as seen on the Tornado or 150 as seen on the Eurofighter:(Cannon armament was to be recycled from the Tornado and was part of the requirements for P.110 and ACA this is mandatory).

4 x Skyflash SuperTEMP:
(The SuperTEMP was developed in 1988 and as we are going with proposed armament the standard Skyflash would have been useable but phased out as was seen in the Tornado, therefore SuperTEMP’s should be as available as a researchable modification it was also considered to use AMRAAM but this was never displayed however owing to Foxhunter upgrades, if need be, it could receive AMRAAM).

2 x ASRAAM:
(These are compatible with all sidewinders from the AIM-9L and would be changed to a missile befitting its BR such as the AIM-9M or 9L).

2 x BOL countermeasure sidewinder rails totalling 320 x flares/chaff

With reference to the countermeasures though no rails were installed or mocked-up the upcoming BOL 304 rails were viewed favourably as they would have naturally been alternate and compatible with the ASRAAM rails, furthermore BAe would go on to buy a major stake in this company, the other option was to add the same countermeasures as seen on the F-4 Phantom in a similar manner to what would be done to the Tornado as it entered combat in Desert Storm with the additional under-fuselage mounts regardless, the specifications set mandated countermeasures.

For radar and RWR purposes, the EAP would receive the Foxhunter stage 2G which would fit in the radome by deliberate decision as it was the same as the ADV meeting the envisaged specifications, furthermore it would receive the same avionics passage as the Panavia Tornado including the RWR as this was planned before the EAP was restructured into the Eurofighter:


These extracts further show that EAP was designed with the intention at the time to further develop EAP into a fully capable ACA demonstrator, thus making it an unfinished prototype. This would be cancelled in a similar manner to the Yak-141, whilst development of EAP continued, eventually German reunification would drastically alter the design needs on the EAP, restructuring commenced and the Eurofighter consortium would redefine the design requirements to include an improved radar, more pylons and improved supersonic agility, as opposed to the subsonic advantages the cranked wing would offer.

The Yak-141 would be cancelled due to the dissolution of the USSR but due to design considerations it receives an ahistorical IRST which whilst written down, was never fitted, however cutouts existed, EAP however, had its wing’s redesigned for ASRAAM carriage, its radome entirely selected for FOXHUNTER compatibility, and its tail housed an RWR system. This is all on the same line as the cutouts for IRST.

r/Warthunder - The British 12.0 Mini Typhoon the BAe EAP 4

As seen here the Technical layout of the EAP in addition to proposed weapons

This drawing is done by Barry Hygate with input from the design and development team at British Aerospace, it is drawn to approximate technical specifications and is what the development teams final ideas for ACA before it was officially redeveloped. Additional mounts were considered but information on them is scarce past the prior illustrations.

Proof of Barrie’s research:

Spoiler

The Unique Features of the EAP

Given its’ use of the ASRAAM the EAP would feature a HMS as this was developed specifically and in conjunction with the ASRAAM, this brings it in-line with the other top tier aircraft.

The EAP is unable to rip its wings due to its software systems, no permanent damage can be induced to the airframe.

The EAP features 13 control surfaces which interact with each other and the pilot to gain the maximum possible performance through the fly by wire system.

Foreplanes can depress to -80 degrees functioning as an airbrake similar to what is seen on the SAAB Gripen, this is because the Gripen is co-developed by BAE, it also features a brake chute.

The EAP features an early variant of the fully encasing Typhoon G-suit which provided pressure to the chest and the legs to increase G-tolerance to the same level as other fighters whilst performing drastically higher G manoeuvres, something unique to the Typhoon and its predecessor.

Foreplanes in addition to leading edge slats and the ventral intakes provide the aircraft with the notable handling at both supersonic speeds common with delta wings and at stall speeds where delta winged aircraft tend to ‘dead fish’ and ‘drift’ enabling the aircraft to have characteristics akin to thrust vectoring and enabling automatic management of split throttle manoeuvres in conjunction with the rudder the intakes on the EAP ‘gape’ in order to maximise airflow at all speeds.

The EAP pulls an incredible 35 degrees of AoA clean, though this would be limited due to the increased weight of a full avionics and weapons package, it would still be significant and likely the highest in-game.

Intent:

Spoiler

The EAP was always designed to be combat convertible and retrofitted this is laid out on paper and in the visible display of its armament, the confirmation that the EAP was to have its avionics bay re-designed to accommodate the Tornado ADV avionics package and this was being considered in 1986 (post withdrawal of Italy and Germany) shows proof, on paper, that the EAP was intended to be developed into the finalised ACA prototype for the UK. This fell through due to German and Italian interest, leading the project to be held until after German elections, further reunification led the programme to be re-structured fully with different design requirements which led to the Eurofighter as we know today. However this aircraft is a prototype of the Agile Combat Aircraft and not the Eurofighter, the Eurofighter has this representation from the Developmental Aircraft (DA.X) airframes. As such it is akin to the Yak-141 which was cancelled following the dissolution of the USSR, but had provisions and details of what it was designed to fit, considerations made for fitting them. The EAP has these very obviously in its mockups, as well as the elements of its design made to accommodate UK specified weaponry.

The allegation that an aircraft must be able to use the systems detailed is not outlined under the suggestions requirements, I have met the requirements for the RWR, basis for countermeasures, weaponry and plans to fit them functionally in accordance with development of the British ACA.

Sources:

Spoiler

Allan Seabridge, Leon Skorczewski: E.A.P. the Experimental Aircraft Programme: Britain’s Last Manned Aircraft Demonstrator (Book; Photo’s have been provided).
Rand: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2007/R3687.pdf
BAE Systems: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/feature/eap
BAE Systems: https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/heritage/bae-eap
Barrie Hygate: British Experimental Jet Aircraft (Book; Photo’s have been provided)

Book specific sources:

Allan Seabridge, Leon Skorczewski: E.A.P. the Experimental Aircraft Programme: Britain’s Last Manned Aircraft Demonstrator (Apologies for poor quality pictures, I couldn’t risk damaging the book by scanning pages):

Spoiler

Radome and Avionics:



UK Intent to upgrade to a full scale weapons fit:



Design adaptations made to carry ASRAAM:


Development of Avionics and FBW:


Intended vs initial software fits relevant to Tornado ADV (to be upgraded later):



Pilot interface and combat modes of MFD:



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Still with all this info i still doubt they will consider it but i would love to see it

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Goddamn I’m burnt out now, I don’t know how Gunjob and other Technical mods and Suggestion Mods do it.

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If they don’t add it, its them saying no, not it being un-applicable, I still get the satisfaction of being right I suppose, plus I might write this up somewhere.

4 Likes