Team mates making the game impossible to win

Game Discussion Arcade Battle
76

Still not answering my question here.

And my argument is that the game is rigged, and I’m giving examples where to look for that to support my argument. I don’t think that;'s a straw man - I started with this, and you started talking about squading up, but that’s a parallel exchange/discussion to what I was already saying anyway about rigging.

I literally have listed a controlled scenario where it’s not about mindset. Not every tasks shenanigans can be obviously checked against in controlled scenario, because that’s a black box, but some of them can be checked. Like according to intelligence, or when you have a vehicle that 100% definitely should do something because of it’s high caliber against it’s BR etc.

There was a seasonal challenge about high calibre guns on the planes, and first two times I checked in the same matches P39 vs P63A-5, which both have the exact same gun, and P39 was hitting everything, while P63A-5 could barely hit one in 5-10 shots. I started talking about this around the third time it was supposed to be in the season, and it wasn’t there anymore, OR I just played too early. But checking the replays, I’ve seen that replays are BS. Not remote, the local replays are fake. They should capture 100% of what your client has seen and it’s not that. You can try to capture live footage vs local replay and see there don’t match sometimes to a point there’s completely different damage captured.

What T2? Me109?

Anyway my point was you can’t always have the tasks that you like doing, that are easy to do with your lineup, that you often do. And re-rolling/switching the task doesn’t guarantee getting what you want to do, and you do get tasks that are hard to do and look/feel rigged against, like having to hunt for specific type of vehicle and not facing them in a match, or facing just a few that get killed whenever you get close to them, or having to kill ground targets but getting series of air only matches while they are really rare in air AB etc.

Regardless of the fact that yes - there are tasks that are easy and there are days when you clear even some harder tasks quickly, there are days when doing even seemingly easy task takes hours and the match ups and maps/modes seem to be set up against your task. Maybe it’s my confirmation bias, but I know I’m not the only one, and I can see more and more people from my squadron ditching the game because of that, part of them coming to RB simply to not see it that obviously as they say “to have less stressful/annoying play sessions” and others simply playing other games.

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77

Imho you deal with two different topics here. The first is reducing the actual effectiveness within a match to kills only - and the second part is dealing with ineffective team mates.

Sorry man, but imho you simply try to present yourself as outstanding player on the expense of others. WT is no rocket science - and being “good” at any shooter requires the willingness and actual necessity to learn. And ofc some support of the game itself with actual useful tutorials.

So alone the fact that players spawn into a match is usually evidence enough that they want to “do something” - that they fail is just the result of almost non-existing entry barriers (except money or time) to play the game and the willingness or ability to improve.

Actually i assess your positioning regarding clueless teammates in this thread rather strange. Why? I mean all statistics are open - and you play more or less exclusively Rank III vehicles in Ground RB - so you benefit from rather inexperienced opponents and in exchange you play with a team of rookies - imho you might consider to look up the word “temperance”.

Besides the fact that i don’t play arcade - and you just 1 match in the last 5 months - i found the topic interesting as my son plays Ground AB and RB, and the topic of rather inexperienced team mates is present in all AB and RB modes and not limited to AB.

So for the usual wannabe mods - idc if you don’t want to listen to RB players.

Imho most people have no clue that KpB (kill-per-battle) and K/D (kill-death-ratio) are completely different values. WT just shows KpB - the real K/D is the number of killed players vs own deaths.

Squad game play in itself is almost unbeatable by a solo player if the squad acts coordinated, so the statistics of a player active in squadded teams are de facto useless values.

There is nothing wrong with looking for high KpB numbers or WRs - wt is a shooter and shooters live from stat driven people (to invest money / time to get on top of rankings), that’s the main reason for rankings.

No matter what game mode you play - there is a strong connection of higher win rates (WR) and high number of kills per battle (KpB) - but at the end of the day there is a also a strong connection been a high WR and a high kill-death-ratio (K/D) - at least if stats are not artificially increased be playing in a squad like ENSO - active in RB.

Why? Because it depends on the quality of your “victims” - so you can kill the rookie players of the enemy team all day long - if you don’t kill (or at least render them ineffective) the very good players of the enemy team you will lose if they know what they are doing.

Translated to wt with multi spawns: You can achieve high kill numbers in any game by killing the same guys over and over again (best way attacking spawn points) - until they run out of SP or just give up - but this does not guarantee to win a match as there are other players playing the game objective which are willing to sacrifice everything to win a match.

So it’s all about killing the "right " targets at the “right” point of time - if you consider the efforts of gaijin to make actual skill less important, high kill numbers are not the whole truth of being actually effective.

Even admitting that any game objectives in any shooter are just there to enforce PvP action - if you look for quality you have to assess the whole picture.

Imho you might to want to consider an old forum rule: Don’t feed trolls.
Your posts are looking very reasonable, but imho you are wasting time.

Have a good one!

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78

Bringing tinfoil into an argument automatically makes it invalid.

79

You have good points, but I feel like it won’t win over many, not all, but some matches that just feel weird and one sided. Unless we can discuss a specific captured live game, compare it to server replay etc.

Playing in environment with a lot of newbie players is a good point, but then why it’s so often that one side is so easily steamrolled by the other. Not always my side is loosing, sometimes the matches are so quick that you don’t get to do much, don’t get to use any plane etc.

There’s also that situation where your team holds all the points properly, the enemy team is already demolished and one rambo guy can clear out multiple groups of enemies right before his team loses.

Also air mission, so ground AB plane airstrike system is something that may have deciding factor for the win - sometimes your team can’t ever run it because the other team is always faster, sometimes you can’t be effective because you spawn with interceptors on your tail or in front of you within shooting range. I literally spawned in a bomber today with wing to start burning right away, while in other occasions where it doesn’t matter, I get bomber right on top of the drop zone with interceptors far away, because I don’t need to do anything with the bomber for the task, my targets are already dead etc.

I believe community should start talking about it and do actual data mining that is not just looking at the client files, but doing some group statistics. But that’s not going to happen unless more people see the problem. And weekend is a great moment to talk because supervision is away from their desks :D

I listed controlled scenarios where it adds up. Not my problem you don’t own anything for a controlled scenarios. Yes - a lot of it may be confirmation bias because I don’t want to run down my SSD and have time keep track of every match just to prove the point.

You can ignore the confirmation bias and the ones that are situational, but think about tasks and situations that are repeatable vs vehicles that have sure penetration/destruction on their corresponding BRs, and you’ll start seeing that things don’t add up to the supposedly repeatable mechanics of the game.

First point to see is that the local replays don’t match the live captured footage. Second one is that you will encounter situations where you 100% shots bounce over and over again, and they will be corresponding with your tasks. It’s not that it will always happen, but when such discrepancies against mechanics happen, check your tasks.

80

Gee, I’m sorry I couldn’t be EVERYWHERE at once. As you can CLEARLY see from the stats, my team were completely incapable of killing ANYTHING so my first task had to be to try to reduce enemy numbers (particularly clearing caps) so that the rest of the team could at least try to cap seeing they obviously couldn’t shoot to save their lives. Given how quickly my team were being wiped out it left me facing so many enemy tanks it wasn’t possible to cap as well given I couldn’t rely on team mates to cover me while I did so. They were too busy cowering behind cover.

“Why do so many players, that get a lot of kills in a game, immediately blame their entire team for the loss when they did nothing to help win the game themselves”. I’d suggest that killing 1/4 of the enemy team myself would qualify as “doing something to help win the game”.

BTW, as soon as the enemy work out that only ONE player on the opposition team is any real threat, killing that person often becomes the focus of the enemy team. As such, trying not to die takes up most of your time and doesn’t make capping any easier.

Lastly, had I taken any caps, given how absolutely worthless the rest of my team was, how long do you think it would take the enemy to take it back as soon as I went to take another? I can’t be in three places at once to defend ALL the caps. Given the scenario I was faced with, your argument is full of more holes than a sieve.

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81

This was never my intention - you can google things like “why the majority is always wrong” for good reasons - trying to take a step back and to have different views on things was never suited to gain appreciation.

I see the same in my mode, but this is a rather hot topic as nobody knows for sure what is actually considered by the MM. Even if you admit that the human brain tends to recognize patterns in pure chaos - circumstantial evidence with a confidence level way higher than wild guesses exist. Just check this post and this one - imho whole thread is rather interesting regarding win/defeat streaks and team composition.

I mean any experienced long term player is at some point able to predict the outcome of 90% of his matches just by looking at the vehicles of your team and a quick check of the stat cards of the enemy team - i use my tinfoil hat only to predict visits of my mother-in-law - with rather poor results.

Regarding your bouncing shots and deviations of in game perception and server replay - from my pov a lot related to sync issues.

I mean i fly just a handful of non-meta WW2 era props, but those planes several thousand times. So even if you are not the smartest guy, after a few hundred matches in a plane you know exactly where your bullets are going - and if enemy projectiles are able to hit you.

So from time to time i miss the easiest shots you can imagine - and you get killed by shells that clearly passed your plane - and by watching the replays i see that my shots went 2-3 meters below or above a target and the enemy shells were right on target…

Fully agree, my reminder was just aimed at a specific person…

Have a good one!

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82

Well, but that’s not what I’m really talking about here. Not that the server replay has is different than what you capture. I’m talking about your local client saved replay is doctored after the match for some reason or not storing only your local things. I know that the server replay may see things completely differently, that’s crystal clear to me as I’m a developer working on online multiplayer games myself.

Here’s a proof of client footage being different than stored replay, and I’m not talking about shot deviation, but whole “phantom” vehicle disappearing in the replay: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/13q2iwz/local_replays_are_not_showing_what_you_actually/
I only captured it this time because I had the situation previously, and I wasn’t the only one seeing the phantom vehicle back then, my team also saw a phantom vehicle like this in one of the previous matches where I didn’t capture live footage. I also had discrepancies with local replay in the case of high-calibre aircraft guns, where I flew so close to the bomber trying to shoot it down with my P63A-5 while constantly missing it that I broke my propeller, while in the local replay it looks like I just missed all the shots by being too far and decided to crash down into the ground “just because”.

So first of all, the game is not really having the “server is the king” kind of network architecture as most modern multiplayer games, but even calling it hybrid-server-client architecture like iirc they are calling it, is a big stretch. From what I could see over the years the game is running peer-2-peer with dedicated server just collecting the simulation outcomes from both sides and deciding who’s right, and potentially doctoring the outcome.

Few years back I had one match in which something happened for like a minute, when everyone could move around and shoot, but no damage worked, chat didn’t work and noone scored anything, but we still could move around and shoot each other without any damage, until like 30 seconds before the match ended where it started working again. It pointed me towards figuring out how the network architecture may actually look like.

Getting back to discrepancies between server and client and other players - I’ve had few times a bombing run when my squad mate had cleared the interceptors off my tail to tell me I’m clear to bomb, while I was already shot down and crashing into the ground only to see my plane flying straight over the battlefield when I got back to my tank.

Because of the architecture like this, it’s good for people with bad network connection, and I actually have one squadron mate that says that war thunder is the only game that works smoothly on his radio connection, but it has consequences. For example you sometimes have this situation where you’re randomly stuck and don’t know why you can’t shoot or move already only to see the damage show up after a second or so when you actually get shot. Or you have situations where you peek out, shoot and come back to the cover, and when you’re already in the cover you’re scratched on the side and see a killcam with your whole tank being wide in the open. IMO this happens because on the other side the player has such high latency, his client requests the result of his shot so early that he’ll get it as soon as possible. While such architecture allows players on poor connection play smoothly, it’s still something that lets the game make it so that both sides loose when they need to for the sake of optimising retention by throttling the tasks.

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83

No, it isn’t.

If that statement held any water at all, if I had a 1 to 1 kill to death ratio I should win around 50% of the time as I kill exactly as much as I am killed.

But that isn’t true at all.

I have a 2.1 to 1 kill ratio in Realistic Battles which is all I have played for a long time now. I lose more than I win.

So killing twice as many people as kill me results in losing most of the time. That, in and of itself, shouldn’t be possible. But in this game, it is.

In fact, it’s status quo.

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84

Yeah, nothing personal, just an observation of mine. I just see it so many times in the general chat in game, players with a good kill count ranting that “their” team lost the game for them. It just seems like an odd pov to me most of the time. And yeah, I too know about teams that are less then “stellar” . . I think we all do. It seems like there are a lot of newer players, and we have all prolly done it & it is nothing new, that pick up bad habits early on, and just never let go of them. They don’t seem to be taught much about the game or how to play it, and what is taught to them, is not really good game play or all that helpful usually. All I can say is, that if you base your enjoyment of something off the words/actions of others, you’ll prolly spend a good deal of time being . . . disappointed. “Expectations are the mothers of all resentments” . . . Unless you are the one that teaches them, hard to expect them to play to your level or play style . . “Teach them Senpai” . . . and yeah, that is tongue in cheek, as we all know there is only so much you can do there, just like . . . only so much you can do to influence a game . . . just don’t let it get to you man . . . the game is full of RNG . . . especially teams. No sense getting mad at the lottery . . . because the numbered ping pong balls . . . they don’t care one way or the other . . . C’es la Vie

85

I always play this game with the mindset thats it’s a me against the entire enemy team, in some cases it does get to that point so you’ll end up getting surrounded but chances are you’ll perform better since you’re more vigilant that way

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it’d say it’s kinda 50-50 wether it’s gonna be absolutely terrible or a decent match
If you’re lucky you’ll find that 1 guy who’ll become your ride or die buddy and just absolutely massacre the enemy by your side

so even if you have like half the team on your side holding a position, always assume there will be 1 guy that sneaks in and doesn’t get noticed killing everybody

86

Despite i was not really able to connect this with the OP regarding team mates:

Thank you very much for this “technical” insight. Even a plain user like me was able to get your point with this explanation. I really appreciate that!

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87

getting worst for me, just wanna play shoot something and win some but matches these days its just get steamrolled over and over so whats the fun and where is the fun

2mins in half team died once then enemy got cap and just park somewhere defend…the rest of us move in dead dont do anything a defeat

if this is once or twice out of 5 matches its normal but really 4 to 5 times the same thing…this kinda thing demoralize anyone to wanna continue playing

88

Tell me you don’t understand latency and server sided mechanics without saying you don’t understand latency and server sided mechanics…

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89

lol again… that’s all you could pick on from what I wrote. Small buffer shows again…

In what you quoted from me, the point is that the clients are running the simulation authoritatively for themselves and without server running the simulation itself. In architectures where server is simulating actual gameplay and distributing it to the clients that are smoothing it out, based on the most recent state of simulation from the server, and have limited authority over parts of the simulation connected to local player’s vehicle.

But in WT you can lag out the game to a point where tanks start flying, and then get back to having stable connection and you will see that the game is not correcting such flying tank positions and yet you’re still able to play. You can play with friends and see that one player will see your tanks touching in a way that suspension is rocking while on the other client there’s a significant gap. The client is not fixing the discrepancies against authoritative simulation on the server, and my guess is that is because there is none of that on the server.

Moreover you can play on high ping and still hit very fast moving vehicles that are changing direction as you would normally do, which means that the client is sending to the server information about whether you hit the target locally and the server is deciding whether you’re right or wrong, and that might be good strategy for handling latency, but at the scale WT is allowing it to happen, it doesn’t add up to authoritative simulation running on server with clients following it with prediction.

Stop being a smart ass and stop trolling.

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90

I know what I’m talking about, you don’t.

92

Have you tried kindly educating your comrades on ways to improve their gameplay?

93

Think about it bud, you’re the one having issues where no-one else really does… When you have something pointed out to you, you dismiss it because you NEED that excuse because otherwise you are the one having the issue.

And if you can’t tell the difference between a server replay and what the client uses, then when you’re trying to make up ‘reasons’ for what you see, you just look like an idiot…

And then when you make out that someone is a troll when they’re trying to tell you that, you’re ending up being delusional.

94

I assume you mean me. Yes, I used to try to do just that by letting people know if we need more people on the left flank for instance, or “Don’t clump together. You’ll get bombed or attract lots or arty”, or “enemy heading around the right flank”, etc. Almost never did anyone take any notice. People are so focussed on a single goal from the outset that they don’t care about anything else. That will usually be to do with completing a specific daily or special task towards their “Battle Pass”. Gaijin has steered this game far more towards individual goals rather than any team focus. Hence, it’s pointless saying anything these days because it’ll just get ignored.

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95

I usually just throw out random encouragement to the match to see who’s actually good to go, then do call outs on random things from there

That start is vital to retain the teams focus.

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96

I just stop even bother to ask teammats to flank/go different cap etc.
All they do is to lemmingtrain to the closest cap and die there by enemy from their sides… Battle mode made that even worst to the point i just leave every battle mode map

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