Wait a second: How can it be abused to kick someone from battle?
Before: Someone committed a TK on purpose or by accident, and got kicked.
Now: Someone commits a TK on purpose or by accident, and can be forgiven by the victim and thus may not get kicked.
Admittedly, I havent experienced such a situation since the patch, but isn’t that how it works now?
Before it took 2 TK, which typically would auto forgive one, now it takes 1 TK and you’re gone.
Accidental TK happens a lot in jets due to missiles.
Your current system ask people who just got their game session ended prematurely to be level headed and forgive? Nah mate, someone TK me on accident, I’ll have my revenge button ready.
You just gave everyone the option to revenge kill whomever made a mistake and TK, and everyone uses that option to insta kill the guy. Accident or not doesn’t matter.
SHOCKER.
If the person isn’t forgiven, they get kicked.
So someone can choose to not accept the apology, and you end up in trouble, even if it’s clear to everyone it was an accident.
(Edit - The drive to make moderation ‘easy’ because no-one wants to go through and check on the bad players, is what the problem is for me and any moderation currently about…)
So how does this differ from before - and get worse as it is claimed here - when all TK’s, accidental or intended, were treated as intended and were tracked and punished?
(Still, not sure about what was mentioned that now 1 (unforgiven) TK is already enough to get kicked. Will have to inquire about htat…)
I’m about to go test it. :D
Well, for chat related issues the way we use now and always have used is to process all incoming reports manually, and react based on what can be proven or not.
For TK’s, as it does since ages, the automated system does virtually 100% of the work, and all TK or team damage incidents are tracked, compared and based on an algorithm lead to a kick from a match, or if more frequent, a game ban.
Whether and how a TK / team damage incident is detected did not change, so the repercussions if not forgiven are also still the same. Of course accidental TK’s happened before as well, but were all without exception treated as intentional TK and led to repercussions.
Players were unhappy about this, as it was unfair towards really accidental TK’s so the new system allows the victim to be graceful if he/she wants. But of course it’s not compulsory to be forgiving, even if it was an accident.
But then, if we think about this, accidents never just “do not happen”, but “are caused”, here in this context mostly by negligence of the shooter (happens to me from time to time in Sim as well, I’ll frankly admit).
Sorry, no it doesnt, It only happens when the person firing the missile is careless or fires it in a really stupid position. There is maybe 1 in every 10000 times when it is absolutely not the person who fired its fault for that teamkill. Now that still might be an “accident”, but an accident caused by carelessness is just as bad as intent.
Car accidents only happen when a driver is careless and doesn’t pay attention.
An “accident” is something that doesn’t happen intentional by definition. Whether it’s because of carelessness or being braindead doesn’t make it any different, it is still accidental.
You should be punished for both.
Also not always, but yes the majority of the time, and when it is one party’s fault, they are punished for it.
Neh I shoot a R-27ER from 100m altitude to a enemy 5000m altitude at the front and 10km apart. And the missile went like 60 degrees left in to the ground and hit the friendly who is like at 50m altitude and 4km far from me. This has been happening like 3-4 times since the update and i don’t think I’m responsible for that carelessness
I feel as though the ‘intent’ isn’t carried by the automated detection…
Such as one time I had 2 players pin me and artillery me, and keep artillerying me every artillery they obtained…
I doubt they were picked up, but they were using that to TK and actually cause issues.
And even when it’s raised as to how this sort of action impacts my gameplay it’s generally downplayed.
With this ‘requirement’ of me having to break my gameplay, and go into the server replay to highlight that in any way that’s going to be effective, I see that as being a hinderance to me, and I don’t think anything will come of it, meanwhile the people responsible keep playing on.
(Edit - And it’s SO HARD to even bring myself to even try TK… Like, damn…)
No.
I used to be an instructor in the Swiss Army, and we have trained with four very simple rules to prevent shooting accidents:
Any shooting accident I’ve heard of during my service and after, were a result of not just one, but all of those points being neglected by the shooter, and this negligence always led to legal repercussions.
Yes, like in a car, accidents don’t “just happen”! I might be tired, and misjudge my ability to drive. I might slip because I misjudged the road conditions. I might have a brake failure because I neglected to send my car to service regularly, or the guy maintaining my car neglected to service my car correctly.
Real accidents by things I as a driver have no control over directly or indirectly, are rare. Maybe a boulder flattening me on a mountain road…
Those points all also are valid here in the game, and underline the view that accidents do not happen, but are caused:
If I aim a missile at the space where both friends and enemies are present, I have to accept the possibility that my missile may lock onto the Blue guy instead of the red. So I don’t fire in such a situation.
I keep my fingers off my trigger if I have a friendly in sight.
I make sure that there is no friendly around that might move into a position that my shot can endanger him (this I think is the most difficult one to achieve, especialy in the game where many may chase the same target, all greedily wantong to get the kill.
I make sure I really have the target correctly identified as an enemy, and am not shooting a friend.
And - again an admission here - also ALL TK’s I have caused, without exception, were caused by me not heeding those rules enough, misidentification of the enemy being the most common cause in my case, I think, followed by daring to fire at an enemy in merged situations… So not something that “happened to me”, but something “I did”.
Absolutely the same here, teamkills happen, and i have caused several of them over the years, and should be punished for them. How else do you get people to learn to try their utmost to avoid them in the future
I think you are aware of the major flaw of the automated teamkill tracking and ban system (allowed amount of tks too high to get a temporary game ban) but the “improvement” with this “apology” function works only if the teamkiller uses the “apology” button.
If he does nothing - nothing happens in the match.
If you don’t believe me:
Teamkill right after air spawn 6 kills in Wyvern - 19.09.- 16:36:
Teamkilled right after spawn
Teamkilled after 8:30 by the same guy 19.09. - 23:40
Teamkill in order to deny kill - griefing
So i recommend either you dump this apology stuff or you change the game so that the apology is sent out automatically.
Otherwise it is useless as only “honorable” players with actual teamkills by accident using the “apology” button might get kicked, whilst intentional teamkillers ignoring the “apology” button get away unpunished.
I mean what do you expect? Should players check all own players before spawning in - in order to identify players you blocked as you know they are teamkilllers?
I see teamkills in props more often as griefing (Wyverns kill other Wyverrns to deny a base kill or fighters teamkill own fighters in order to deny them a kill); in rarer cases as “self justice” for alleged kill steals…
Another one that tends to happen is launching artillery on a cap that the enemy is decapping, then a friendly takes out the enemy capper, rushes cap themselves, and gets killed by your artillery. When it happens to me (as in, I’m on the receiving end of that), I shrug it off, because it was done with the intent to win this thing, and I like that competitive spirit, it usually helps the team more than the opposite. So, yeah. Of course mistakes are as serious as their consequences, but not all mistakes are born equal.
The new system is better in the sense that team kills aren’t treated the same and there is no automatism, but worse in that now one team kill can be enough to be kicked.
Yet, in WT, I shoot a missile at a target away from me… while missile is in the air, target dies and while he is a fireball, the game considers him dead and he has no more heat signature. Missile will automatically reacquire someone, which it would not of gone for otherwise - but having no more target, it will go for a friendly.
This isn’t real world - this is a game. This requires “game rules” and not a 25 year to life prison sentence in front of a judge and jurors because you’re trying to win a game.
Putting a 1 TK = kick mechanic in a game is kind of silly, and I can’t think of any game which has done so. It only causes that instead of having 1 unhappy guy, you now have 2. What’s the point in that?
You can’t avoid all accidental team kills in a 16vs16 missile slinging game. At the same time, you can’t remove team damage either, because that will just make the chaos worse/less controlled as people will just spam their missiles without thought. But same, 1 TK = kick is silly, this is a game. Punishment is there in terms of SL loss, maybe they could do something along the lines of a heavier fine for the first TK, and this apology system for anything subsequent.
I got a TK once because the missile autopilot whilst tracking an enemy player just happened to cross near a player flying the opposite direction and triggered the proximity fuse.
And often enough missiles will switch track onto player that fly between you and the target.
The big issue here is the high player count in matches, you can’t keep track of all that and so genuine accidents do happen where no one is really at fault
As I said, I need to inquire about this. I also agree that this would be suboptimal…
I got your points regarding missiles but the root cause for 2 unhappy guys relies clearly with the teamkiller; so the point of fast and immediate punishment is quite convincing for me - if this new “feature” would work.
From my pov this whole teamkilling discussion is an anachronism - more or less everything besides the shape and skins of vehicles in wt is fantasy, fiction or imagination. Even in case we assume that some vehicles might be modelled correctly – the history of countless open or hidden nerfs/buffs within war thunder is proving that realism is highly subjective and needs to be adjusted if they see the need to do so.
So gaijin’s argument that they want to keep teamkills in Air RB as a part of realism is actually very weak - the fellow players in tanks need arty or planes to kill friendly tanks as tanks can’t kill friendly tanks, but in Air RB realism is different to Ground RB realism as planes can kill friendly planes?
Removing team damage in ARB would be silly because everyone will just hold trigger down and launch 5000 missiles right between all friendlies… it’s like that in AB already. Abuse of friendly fire needs to simply be controlled by a system which makes sense.
I don’t play tanks, if they don’t have friendly fire, it’s odd for RB. I’m totally against that because it also leaves a little space for self moderation to get rid of people only there to harm their own team.
There’s always 2 sides for friendly fire, on one side it can be abused when enabled, on the other side, it can also be abused when disabled (ie. you can completely block friendly from firing/playing at all, or push them around a corner in tanks to get slapped by enemy and they have no way to do anything back to you). Similarly, it can be used positively when enabled too (remove some obvious person from session actively sabotaging the team), but you can also end up with a person blasting 2 people back to hangar right off the runway.
I still prefer the old system over this new one, or maybe it should be some combination of both.