Please Gaijin, help Red Team

[Malekitth]

@UnknownDistance

@Nomikoma_Sen made the same claims about red side players not knowing how to play and not knowing BFM that he is making now. I had basically no experience in the F-16ADF at the time and I went 17-3 in a dogfight against him while using the same plane. The only kills he was able to get were full commit head-ons.

Average USA main moment lmao. Holds W and flat turns, wins every dogfight because of handheld planes, thinks he has god skillz. Then gets reality checked

[CorporalApollo]

Also, regarding the R27ER. This guy said it best

@UnknownDistance

The R-27ER was never that good in sim because of 100m multipathing made it basically irrelevant for doing anything other than killing guys who went to altitude and third partying people that were in dogfights. The whole entire thought process behind reducing mulitpathing was because radar missiles were not meta-defining.

Now that they are a much larger part of the meta…the fact that the Aim-120 is just straight better, on a better airframe, and with a better radar

The ER doesn’t really work against AIM120’s since you need to provide guidance until impact. Especially since the AIM120 carrier can turn around and still stay offensive. If you’re forced to stay within gimbal of the AIM120 carrier, you’ll likely eat the AIM120 or at best trade

[Panter2005]

@UnknownDistance

The Aim-120 has a time-to-impact of around 2-3 seconds longer than the R-27ER when fired around 50km. The R-77 is noticeably slower than the Aim-120 by another 4-5 seconds.

The actual practical difference is even greater when you consider that the F-15 and F-16 have better climb performance and can launch their missiles from higher altitudes given the same timeframe.

What are you even comparing here, did you read the sentence you quoted?

@UnknownDistance

Do you have the MiG-29? I would be willing to let you show me how the MiG-29 is better than the F-15 in BvR. I don’t think that it is and I think that having 4 Aim-7Fs is on-par with having 2 R-27ER.

Like I said, I recently found out that R-27ER has gotten a massive engine nerf, so I don’t know how good R-27ER actually is now. Notice how I switched to using past tense.

@UnknownDistance

There was no way to bypass 100m multipathing. Flying high in a Russian plane was just wasting missiles if you were firing against people that were hugging the deck.

Firing a sparrow upwards at a Flanker was either a guaranteed kill if he didn’t notch or you at least got to close the distance and have a positional advantage for a follow up Aim-9M.

This is what I meant when I said this:

@Panter2005

Were are arguing like this:
“It’s very bad”
“It’s not that bad”
“It is that bad”
“It’s not”
“It is”
So I propose to stop.

I’m gonna say that thing A was happening and you’re gonna say that no, the reverse of A was happening.

[Panter2005]

@CorporalApollo

The ER doesn’t really work against AIM120’s since you need to provide guidance until impact. Especially since the AIM120 carrier can turn around and still stay offensive. If you’re forced to stay within gimbal of the AIM120 carrier, you’ll likely eat the AIM120 or at best trade

That’s not how you should be using the R-27ER against AIM-120, but what I have in mind probably wouldn’t work with the nerfed engine, so I’m not even gonna present it here. I need some time to reevaluate R-27ER’s performance.

[UnknownDistance]

@Panter2005

That’s not how you should be using the R-27ER against AIM-120, but what I have in mind probably wouldn’t work with the nerfed engine, so I’m not even gonna present it here. I need some time to reevaluate R-27ER’s performance.

How should be people be using it against the Aim-120? What is your advice?

[Panter2005]

@Panter2005

The point of launching an R-27ER at long range is not to get a kill with it. It’s a tool to make the enemy go defensive. R-77 doesn’t have necessary range/energy to be threatening at long range, although maybe after the buff it does.

Let’s say F-15C and SU-27SM meet each other in a 1v1 and both launch from 40km. F-15 launches an AIM-120, SU-27 launches an R-27ER. Let’s go through a few scenarios.

1. If F-15 tries to stay offensive and both planes just keep going straight/crank/F-pole after launch, F-15 dies first and SU-27 notches AIM-120 after that, because R-27ER’s speed gave it enough time to notch it.
2. If F-15 goes defensive after AIM-120 goes active, while SU-27 tries to guide the R-27 in, the F-15 notches the R-27 and the SU-27 dies.
3. If both F-15 and SU-27 go defensive after AIM-120 goes active, both planes lose their missiles. F-15’s missile gets notched, while SU-27’s missile loses radar lock, but still glides using IOG.Once you recommit and you still have a lot of distance between you, you can repeat the process. After F-15 gets locked again, he has to worry not only about the new R-27 launched, but also about the old one, which was gliding towards him using IOG and is now alive again.Once you’ve done this a few times and both of you survived, you are now in pitbull range. Here you switch to the R-77. Your R-77 is better than AIM-120 in pitbull range.

The last scenario allows the SU-27 to enter the same gameplay loop as any FOX 3 vs FOX 3 would have, even tough it uses a FOX 1. That gameplay loop is launching and returning to a notch, the one who does this faster wins.

You basically have to do the same thing the F-15 does, you can’t ever go defensive first, but you also can’t stay offensive, if the F-15 goes defensive.

This only works with R-27ER, because it’s so much faster. With any other FOX 1 you would trade at best in the 1st scenario.

I was writing this with the not nerfed engine in mind. I will repeat, that it had 73 600N booster with 2s burn time and 25 600N sustainer with 7s burn time, now it has only a 55 275N booster with 3.2s burn time.

I doubt that it would work with the nerfed engine. You need a good few seconds of advantage to notch the AIM-120, after you kill your enemy, which this whole tactic is based upon.

The not nerfed engine is actually much closer to reality, but that’s a whole another topic.

[UnknownDistance]

I can tell you from experience that this will not work against a competent F-15C or F-16C player.

The F-15 or F-16 player can fire more than one AMRAAM before the missiles become active and turn around. If both players launch missiles at the same time the R-27ER will reach the F-15C player 1-3 seconds before the Aim-120. The F-15/F-16 player has a 10-15 second window between his first Aim-120 going active and the R-27ER impacting. And a smart F-16/F-15 player is going to crank multiple directions and fire multiple missiles.

Basically your suggestion is that the Su-27 player commits suicide in order to try to guide the first one in. The radar on the Su-27 is bad enough that they will likely not even be able to find and reacquire lock before eating the 2nd AMRAAM that was fired.

A BvR engagement between an F-15C and Su-27SM is typically a one sided stomp unless all the missiles are defeated and a dogfight is forced.

[Panter2005]

@UnknownDistance

I can tell you from experience that this will not work against a competent F-15C or F-16C player.

Of course not, the same way a competent BF 109 player will never lose to a Spitfire, that’s not the point.

@UnknownDistance

The F-15 or F-16 player can fire more than one AMRAAM

So can the SU-27.

@UnknownDistance

The F-15 or F-16 player can fire more than one AMRAAM before the missiles become active and turn around.

If he does that, the missiles do not receive position updates from TWS, they are basically the same as an R-27ER without a lock.

@UnknownDistance

And a smart F-16/F-15 player is going to crank multiple directions and fire multiple missiles.

So can the SU-27.

@UnknownDistance

The radar on the Su-27 is bad enough that they will likely not even be able to find and reacquire lock before eating the 2nd AMRAAM that was fired.

I think you really overstate how bad it is.

@UnknownDistance

If both players launch missiles at the same time the R-27ER will reach the F-15C player 1-3 seconds before the Aim-120.

Yeah, that’s not enough time, that’s why I said it probably wouldn’t work with the nerfed engine. I bet with the not nerfed engine the difference would be much bigger.

@UnknownDistance

Basically your suggestion is that the Su-27 player commits suicide in order to try to guide the first one in.

No.

[CorporalApollo]

Lots to unpack with your whole message, I’ll let UD respond, but regarding this:

@Panter2005

I think you really overstate how bad it is.

He really isn’t…

[Panter2005]

Again
“It’s not that bad”
“It’s that bad”

[warthogboy09]

@Talisid

What I keep seeing here is people that only main Blue Team, have never played Red or have tried few games, and complain. Please dont write if you’re not experienced with both sides.

I am very experienced with both sides. The only reason there is a player imbalance is simply due to the popularity of western aircraft amongst people playing sim. It was the same even when the MLD was by far the best aircraft in game.

[CorporalApollo]

@Panter2005

Again
“It’s not that bad”
“It’s that bad”

Except that you have ZERO experience with the radar, you don’t own a Flanker. So when you’re saying “It’s not that bad”, what are you basing this on? I don’t think you’ll find a single person with the Flanker who will say the radar isn’t absolute crap

[UnknownDistance]

As I have said before…break out your Su-27SM and prove us wrong.

I have done this fight before. I have done it with multiple people. I have played both sides of it.
The Su-27SM loses the vast majority of the time. The tactic that you are describing is not effective because in order for the R-27ER to be guided to the target…it has to be hard locked.

The F-15C can decide to recommit to the Su-27 the second the hard lock is dropped and even if the Su-27 recommits at the same time…the radar will take twice as long to show the contact…which equates to 4-5 seconds of flying towards AMRAAM death.

[warthogboy09]

@Talisid

Meanwhile, average winrate of Red team is about 30%

Winrate is completely irrelevant in the context of EC. The games will literally have one side win, even if everyone just does circles on the airfield. This is even without mentioning the imbalance in objective spawning and the popularity of bombing on blue teams. The planes are balanced, or you wouldn’t see 3:1 or 5:1 killrates in red planes every game!

[Panter2005]

@Panter2005

I was writing this with the not nerfed engine in mind. I will repeat, that it had 73 600N booster with 2s burn time and 25 600N sustainer with 7s burn time, now it has only a 55 275N booster with 3.2s burn time.

I doubt that it would work with the nerfed engine. You need a good few seconds of advantage to notch the AIM-120, after you kill your enemy, which this whole tactic is based upon.

^^

[warthogboy09]

@Talisid

Again, they have similar range. If one of the two has longer range it is by a small margin. What sets them apart, and you are correct on this, is speed. And that’s why ER is a better missile compared to aim7f, but it’s not so much better to be on another level.

Lieing through your teeth will not benefit your arguement

[CorporalApollo]

IIRC that engine nerf didn’t affect the performance much of the 27ER. Also it still has a sustainer.

[CorporalApollo]

@warthogboy09

The planes are balanced

You think the F16C and F15C is balanced against the MIG29SMT and SU27SM?

[Panter2005]

@CorporalApollo

Also it still has a sustainer.

gszabi99/War-Thunder-Datamine/blob/master/aces.vromfs.bin_u/gamedata/weapons/rocketguns/su_r_27er.blkx

This data mine says otherwise.

[ARK_BOI]

@CorporalApollo

with the radar, you don’t own a Flanker.

Do i need to be surprise that Russia radar can’t keep up with Western one? It supposed to be