A source was found for that, so a report is in.
With 2x Identical Phantoms, it makes sense to upgrade one and lower the BR of the other.
I see 2 possible ways to make the British Phantoms worth it
Give the FGR2 Skyflash STs and leave it at 12.0. Lower the FG1 to 11.7
Give both the FGR2 and the FG1 Skyflash STs but also give the FGR2 Aim-9Ls to be at 12.3
F-4J(UK) should just go down to 11.7 regardless
No, they are fine. Many other things are UNDERtiered causing compression.
This is crazy. Even if you did consider the FGR to be overtiered, 11.3 would make it EXTREMELY undertiered and EXTREMELY overpowered.
Nothing to do with it. never been cited once before you as the reason.
No, its because it has an HMD and more advanced munitions… nothing to do with the gunpod, which btw barely affects the FM at all.
HMD has never changed the BR of any aircraft.
And yes the gunpod notably impacts the flight performance:
In comparison, the new cannon on RMV is 15.6% the mass and half the drag.
The RMV also allows you to bring the drop tank with a gun so you can run lower internal fuel.
It changed the M2KD’s BR.
No, it doesn’t. Your own screenshot confirms only a 40 kg/f drag difference which is nothing.
Not really, the engines that the FGR2 and FG1 get offer slightly better acceleration, while they are forced to trade for HMD and longer range missiles that can also pull off the rails immediately. This is also not considering the leading edge slats the F4S has which offers better maneuverability, as well as how the gunpod both the US F4J and F4S have both weighs less and has less drag than the gun pod the UK phantoms have to use. The gunpod in general really negates that engine advantage that the UK phantoms have.
The only time the UK phantoms except for the UK F4J have better flight performance is if they don’t run the gunpod, which is not a viable option due to its missile kit.
You can not be telling me with a straight face that the UK phantoms are somehow better or at the same level as the US F4J and F4S, the Mirage F1C, and the Mig 23 ML series.
I did not know this, and now knowing this at least gives the FGR.2 and FG.1 more options.
In this case, both should get Skyflash supetemps and stay at 12.0br, but the FGR.2 should get Aim 9Ls and go to 12.3br.
I agree there are other aircraft that are undertiered like the F5E, F18A, Mig 21bis and such, however BRs are also so compressed that other aircraft can’t be moved up such as the Ja37C or the Mig 23 MLs. Knowing Gaijin, BR decompression is pretty unlikely to happen, and if you were to compare the UK phantoms to other 12.0br aircraft, they are clearly inferior and don’t have the capabilities to stay at 12.0br.
Which is why I clearly stated that 11.3br is just for the UK F4J as again, they have none of the advantages of the US F4J and get none of the advnatages of the FGR.2 and FG.1. The FGR.2 and FG.1 should be 11.7br due to the slightly better engines in comparison to the UK F4J.
Also if you were to even do a comparison of UK F4J to the viggen or the US/Isreali F4E, they are practically equals.
UK F4J vs Ja37C Viggen
Viggen gets large counter measures, a better radar, better maneuverability, better thrust to weight, internal gun and better flight performance in general. The UK F4J gets more missiles, better IR missiles, more ammo, better RWR and better energy retention.
UK F4J vs US/Isreali F4E
UK Phantom gets a PD radar, better IR missiles when compared to US F4E (Isreali F4E gets the same IR missiles), and more ammo. Meanwhile US/Isreali F4E gets better flight performance, better maneuverability due to agile eagle upgrade, gets more flares with large countermeasures, better RWR and an internal gun.
Leading edge slats are the other reason why the F-4J bleeds more speed than the F-4FG1.
Both F-4FG1 and F-4J are limited to the same G-loads, so that leading edge isn’t going to help much at high speeds, but at mid speeds it’ll start bleeding even more speed.
F-4FG1 is to F-4J what F-16AJ is to F-20. F-20 is primarily a lower BR because of its flight performance difference despite having a similar loadout.
F-4J/S requires a gunpod as well… you know that right?
F-4FG1 is obviously superior to Mig-23ML. Vastly superior radar, similarly performing radar missiles, and sidegrade IR missiles. F-1C is obviously an IR missile only plane, as its radar missiles are dogwater, while having worse flight performance. If F-1C didn’t have Magic 2s carrying it at 12.0, it’d be 11.3 in a nanosecond, potentially 11.0.
Not to mention the only time the UK Phantoms have a significant advantage in the engine department is in downtiers because even in 0.3br uptiers you can face the F-16 or M2K and both of these are much faster than you are generally and will rinse you in any sort of engagement.
The UK phantoms are definitely at least on the level of the MiG-23 and Mirage F1 though.
Pretty sure the only reason mirage f1 is 12.0 is bc of the magic 2. Mig 23ml is probably the better plane tho. The only things fgr2 has over the mig 23 ml is 2 more radar missiles, radar and rwr. Mig 23 ml is faster and noticeably better when it comes to overall flight performance (especially in rate), has better radar missiles, they are close when it comes to performance at close range but the r-24r has much more range, especially against manouvering targets. I think the biggest problem of the fgr 2 are the skyflashes, they are uncapable of reliably hitting targets that are actually trying not to die to it more than 5 km away in a head on.
Fgr 2 should simply get supertemps and 9 l’s and just move up to like 12.3, maybe even 12.7, it would also be a good occasion to make it different from the fg1 which is currently an identical machine.
Yes.
Very debatable.
Radar, gun, missile count, IR missiles, probably acceleration.
this matters less when the FGR still has good radar missiles (for this comparison)
not much evidence it was used on it irl, and further it just makes the plane more removed from its real counterpart which I like to avoid
this can happen tho
why would you do this? this would make it pointless
and this would make it unplayable
Eh… I dont know if I would call Aim-7E-2s “Good” at 12.0 when compared directly to Aim-7Fs on all the other Phantoms at the same BR or the SuperTEMPs on the F3.
Its 4x Aim-7E2s vs 2x R-24Rs. its pretty balanced in that regard.
Is literally referenced in the manuals
community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/qDKeGlF2bDex
If they wont add 9Ls. giving us SARH on-par with literally every other Phantom at the same BR would be so much better
I don’t say things for fun.
It is clearly not a weapon used much at all in service (you can’t find any pics of it if you try afaik) so making it the normal loadout further reduces this game’s claim of authenticity for no reason when decompression is the solution.
I really wonder why Gaijin just don’t give 9L on British Phantoms.
I prefer both options, but
It is more historical and less debatable than [SuperTEMP which is technically possible].
Better IR option but worse SARH, seems fair trade to me.
Just… Why…?
Because if we get 9L of ours, F-4J/S will argue about their AIM-9L/M too even though they have
-AIM-7F
-A maximum of 6 AIM-7F can be equipped
-VTAS HMS
-Napalm bombs(FFAR when rocket-bombing was meta)
So, we Brits need to sacrifice to become [collateral damage for the greater good]…?
Or we have both Bison and Hornets, so no need to play phantoms, so no balancing…?
:/
ah… but it would be unfair because Britain…
anything even remotely competitive is against the ToS
Yeah…
If we Always look on the bright side of life
At least we got fine Bison and Hornets because they aren’t built in Albion. :/
Off topic joke: Maybe we should build Challenger 3 in Germany instead of the BAE facility if we want it to get stronger in WT (/s)
I think you might be on to something. Wait a minute - I’ll just see if I can find a similar source as for the Kh-38. There - found it.
Challenger 3 was designed in Russia by Stanislav Atori
Source: Uralmash Factory Documents / Planning Department
Honest.
Now Gaijin, let’s have some ammo racks that don’t explode, bits of ERA rubber and cardboard that suck up 125mm darts without issue and some further improvements. Laser cannons?
Convenient that I see this topic bumped to the top of the list just now, I was wishlisting the other day in the next update wishlist thread about this matter. I’ll copy my thoughts to here.
Personally I think the only phantom that should be lower is the junk. And the other ones as you’ve said can get super temps and stay at 12.0, or also he 9ls and be put at 12.3
It’s an awful plane at that BR but guess what, no decompression so nothing will ever change.
