P51D-30 needs a performance buff or lowered BR

[Burgerbean]

Just played the J26 (Swedish P-51D20/5?), and holy shit it was a horrendous experience. I’m surprised it isn’t 3.7

6x .50’s but no late-war tracers. Slow as shit and I couldn’t even outrun anybody right. Most teams just disintegrate so I can’t pull some of gusto. Even the stealth belts were against me, and unless I sit on someone’s tail for 5+ seconds I couldn’t get a fire nor any significant damage besides a lucky pilot snipe.

Can they reduce the J26’s BR to 3.7 or something? Man it’s awful as hell.

[Real_K_Soze]

@The_Omen17

Obviously a skilled player can make things work, but you’re a such a performance disadvantage that I can’t suggest using it especially considering that there are lower BR options that will outperform it.

I don’t see a need for something like that:

P51D-30 needs a performance buff or lowered BR

As the performance gap to the D-10 is settled / clarified i wanted to test the current “inferiority” of the D-30. I flew it years ago on my old MS account (and the speed saved me more than once on these bloody Pacific maps) and revisited it for 30 battles - spread out for several days, servers and day times - just to have a fresh impression:

1. Getting the flight performance and 0.50 cal upgrades took 11-12 matches and i ended the 30 matches with 21 wins (=70%) and 35:3 kills. Even admitting that i scored at least a dozen ai plane kills (and got robbed by a similar amount of player kills by the usual low lifes) and around 8-10 assists (with stock belts) the plane is not bad.

2. But it needs experience and a high level of situational awareness to stay alive AND to contribute. Flying US props at higher BRs was always more demanding due to the essential need for proper speed and energy management. The plane is totally dependend on which nation you face and which uptier BR, i flew one 4.0-5.0 match and 2 full uptiers - all others were either 5.3 or 5.7.

3. The main weakness (for me) is still to bring guns on target at very high speeds (=more than 750-800 kmph) and the sometimes abysmal stupid team mates from all nations, not only US players.

4. Being outperformed in 0.3, 0.7 or 1.0 uptiers is actually the whole idea of gaijin’s uptier/dowtier concept - your main enemies are Ki-84s, Yak-3s, Yak-3Us and Yak-3 VK 107s. Spitfires are usually too slow and the I-225 compresses like hell at higher speed. The D-30 outturns the usual La-7 and La-11 boys rather easy. I am not aware of any 5.0 plane being way better.

5. As i saw multiple times German aircraft mentioned - the overwhelming majority of my kills (and unwanted assissts) were 109 K-4s/G-14s and 190 D-12/13s. From my pov they have zero chance in a 1 vs 1 on equal energy states. All you have to do is to merge at very high speed.

My own experience is (ofc) highly subjective, i am far away from being an exceptional pilot and i might have had just a lot of luck - but for players enjoying a rather aggressive playstyle including head-ons (not my thing) and have some experience the plane is playable and not as bad as described.

I still prefer the P-47 D-28/30 - they fit perfect to my generic Hotas profile whilst the P-51 D-30 would need a lot of setup changes (similar to P-51 C-10, Ki-44s etc) to use the full potential of the aircraft - and i simply refuse to play anything if i am not happy with their handling with my generic profile.

[Mahrs]

One thing that has become apparent to me looking at my own testing and that of Catwerfer versus input from @RunaDacino and @Real_K_Soze is that the instructor is a HUGE factor.

I’ll do some more testing from my side at some point… but it seems a little bit like the Instructor only type qualified on stuff made in the USSR or Japan… put that dude/lady in a German or U.S. prop and they’re just not sure how to fly it.

[Normandy_Corsair]

Says more about the D10 than the D30

[RXDimA]

I find the instructor to significantly affect the vast majority of planes, regardless of nation.
In terms of pulling limits,
Full/real controls > instructor keyboard > instructor mouse.

[Mahrs]

What has me scratching my head is Stat Shark. I know it’s got issues with props… but I did a basic comparison there of the P-51D-30, F4U-4, Bf 109 G-6, Yak-3P and had them make a “turn chart” (EM plot).

Now, looking at the plot I can spot some inaccuracies/problems - clearly not perfect data/FM reflection. However, looking at the low-to-moderate speed turn performance had me scratching my head… because if it’s even close to accurate…

[Mahrs]

I will update this once I get the Mustang in… forgot to prioritize it!

OK… so here we have the P-51D-30. I have the Yak-3 with simplified joystick controls plotted for reference.

Even with my janky flying, the P-51D-30 picks up 2 deg/s versus the instructor (save the top end when I was trying not to black out). Now, here’s where it gets interesting… real vs. real, Mustang versus the Yak:

What do you see, other than the fact that I am a shitty pilot?

Similar to the above, but the Corsair versus the Yak-3

I am not used to flying with real controls… turns out max turn is a game of chicken in virtual cockpit - get the two lines as close as possible, don’t let them touch. Did I leave performance on the table? Absolutely… but not a significant amount. I also confirmed that simplified with joystick yielded the same results as keyboard.

Yak-3 - real versus keyboard.

You can see the real controls are a little better, about 1 deg/s across the board… when I’m not making a hash of it. Now let’s look at the Corsair…

The Corsair pulls so much harder with real controls that I near blacked out twice and lost control once. It pulls MUCH harder at high speed. In fact, it pulls MUCH harder across the board. The difference is on the order of 20-25%.

Using 350 kph as a reference point, the Corsair is ~23 deg/s versus ~19.5 deg/s. In fact, below 350 kph, the Corsair out rates the Yak-3 and is within a deg/s to 400+ kph. The Yak-3 pilot cedes minimal performance using the mouse aim against a Corsair pilot - they equalize at about 390 kph. Compared to the Corsair pilot using mouse aim? Devastating - at 290 kph, the Corsair goes from a 3 deg/s turn rate advantage to a full 2 deg/s disadvantage. The faster you go, the bigger than advantage gets for the Yak-3 pilot using mouse aim.

I can keep peeling this onion and testing different planes… but, bottom line, the Instructor’s competence varies GREATLY depending on what they’re flying. In this test, they’re pretty good in the Yak-3, “meh” in the Mustang, and just bad in the Corsair. The “so what” is that the instructor hands a significant advantage to mouse+keyboard users in certain aircraft.

[Real_K_Soze]

@Mahrs

I can keep peeling this onion and testing different planes… but, bottom line, the Instructor’s competence varies GREATLY depending on what they’re flying.

I admire your efforts to use a more scientific approach for certain questions, but i would not bet any money on plots or tools using raw data from gaijin in questions how they affect climb, speed or turn - just on your own tests are reliable.

I fully agree: The combination of using simplified flight controls, disabled instructor, a Hotas and MEC is highly underrated regarding the impact on flight & combat performance.

Do me a favor (if your time allows it) and try it with the F6F-5 vs the Yak-3 - a hell of people don’t believe me when i claim that the Hellcat is a Yak killer…😎

[Mahrs]

Well… this has been eye opening.

It turns out the Instructor isn't type rated for the F6F-5 series either

He is every bit as bad in the F6F-5 as in the F4U-4.

That’s a whopping 4 deg/s you give up flying with the instructor. Its chubby big brother doesn’t rate quite as hard. However, they both out rate the Yak-3… and it’s not especially close.

It must be noted that the Hellcat also turns tighter than the Yak-3.

What the Hellcat doesn’t do as well is maintain energy/speed - but, that’s probably a product of how much harder it pulls and how much tighter it turns. The F6F-5 pilot that conserves energy effectively is in a good spot! In fact, the Hellcat versus Yak-3 comparison still favors the Hellcat when both pilots use keyboard controls.

All of which reminds me of a highlight I recorded a long while back…

[Real_K_Soze]

@Mahrs

Well… this has been eye opening.

👍

@Mahrs

What the Hellcat doesn’t do as well is maintain energy/speed - but, that’s probably a product of how much harder it pulls and how much tighter it turns.

Correct - the only way for a Yak-3 pilot to escape is to keep his speed high and initiate a prolonged fight with using multiple vertical maneuvers at altitudes between 800 and 1.400 meters (supercharger gear switch).

The longer it goes you feel the heavy weight of the Hellcat. As soon as you can keep the fight in the horizontal you win, especially as Yak pilots think they can turnfight everything.

[Burgerbean]

Holy shit

[PercussionCap]

@Mahrs

the Instructor only type qualified on stuff made in the USSR or Japan… put that dude/lady in a German or U.S. prop and they’re just not sure how to fly it.

The instructor is a mess even on Japan. For example, Ki-44s can pulll roughly 85% of their max AoA, but Ki-84 only 65-70%. So Ki-84’s turning capability in RB is gimped like the 109s are.

There are other examples, but this is the easiest to point out.

[PercussionCap]

@Mahrs

What the Hellcat doesn’t do as well is maintain energy/speed - but, that’s probably a product of how much harder it pulls and how much tighter it turns. The F6F-5 pilot that conserves energy effectively is in a good spot! In fact, the Hellcat versus Yak-3 comparison still favors the Hellcat when both pilots use keyboard controls.

This is actually a tactic you can do in Sim to very good results. You climb in the Hellcat and you turn every fight into a downward spiral, where you have a large supply of stored up energy to burn in its extremely good instantaneous turn performance.

[RXDimA]

Try the AM-1 at 550 kmh IAS, you’ll get a funni in realistic controls with max pull.
5g difference from the instructor lul

[Ushikiii]

la 7 and la 9 both outturn the p51d30 but otherwise I agree with your comment. It probably does out turn the la11 but I haven’t actually tested that.

[Real_K_Soze]

Ehy! A pro with 5.000 kills in the P-51 D-30 - nice to see that there are people able to use the plane properly. Respect👍

Regarding the La-7 and La-9/11 and out-turning:

You have seen that i use a Hotas in Air RB? I mean i clap a La-7 in a plain CHN F-47 or in the US/CHN/IT P-47 D-28/30 any day of the week as soon as i start on equal energy levels…so if you can’t outturn them you use either mouse aim with instructor or you fight enemies which use a Hotas.

I recommend to read this post regarding the impact of AoA limits for pilots using the instructor…

[Ushikiii]

Oh damn, I didn’t know you used HOTAS, yeah I use mouse aim so that’s likely the reason. Thanks for the clarification.