Says more about the D10 than the D30
I find the instructor to significantly affect the vast majority of planes, regardless of nation.
In terms of pulling limits,
Full/real controls > instructor keyboard > instructor mouse.
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What has me scratching my head is Stat Shark. I know it’s got issues with props… but I did a basic comparison there of the P-51D-30, F4U-4, Bf 109 G-6, Yak-3P and had them make a “turn chart” (EM plot).
Now, looking at the plot I can spot some inaccuracies/problems - clearly not perfect data/FM reflection. However, looking at the low-to-moderate speed turn performance had me scratching my head… because if it’s even close to accurate…
I will update this once I get the Mustang in… forgot to prioritize it!
OK… so here we have the P-51D-30. I have the Yak-3 with simplified joystick controls plotted for reference.
Even with my janky flying, the P-51D-30 picks up 2 deg/s versus the instructor (save the top end when I was trying not to black out). Now, here’s where it gets interesting… real vs. real, Mustang versus the Yak:
What do you see, other than the fact that I am a shitty pilot?
Similar to the above, but the Corsair versus the Yak-3
I am not used to flying with real controls… turns out max turn is a game of chicken in virtual cockpit - get the two lines as close as possible, don’t let them touch. Did I leave performance on the table? Absolutely… but not a significant amount. I also confirmed that simplified with joystick yielded the same results as keyboard.
Yak-3 - real versus keyboard.
You can see the real controls are a little better, about 1 deg/s across the board… when I’m not making a hash of it. Now let’s look at the Corsair…
The Corsair pulls so much harder with real controls that I near blacked out twice and lost control once. It pulls MUCH harder at high speed. In fact, it pulls MUCH harder across the board. The difference is on the order of 20-25%.
Using 350 kph as a reference point, the Corsair is ~23 deg/s versus ~19.5 deg/s. In fact, below 350 kph, the Corsair out rates the Yak-3 and is within a deg/s to 400+ kph. The Yak-3 pilot cedes minimal performance using the mouse aim against a Corsair pilot - they equalize at about 390 kph. Compared to the Corsair pilot using mouse aim? Devastating - at 290 kph, the Corsair goes from a 3 deg/s turn rate advantage to a full 2 deg/s disadvantage. The faster you go, the bigger than advantage gets for the Yak-3 pilot using mouse aim.
I can keep peeling this onion and testing different planes… but, bottom line, the Instructor’s competence varies GREATLY depending on what they’re flying. In this test, they’re pretty good in the Yak-3, “meh” in the Mustang, and just bad in the Corsair. The “so what” is that the instructor hands a significant advantage to mouse+keyboard users in certain aircraft.
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I admire your efforts to use a more scientific approach for certain questions, but i would not bet any money on plots or tools using raw data from gaijin in questions how they affect climb, speed or turn - just on your own tests are reliable.
I fully agree: The combination of using simplified flight controls, disabled instructor, a Hotas and MEC is highly underrated regarding the impact on flight & combat performance.
Do me a favor (if your time allows it) and try it with the F6F-5 vs the Yak-3 - a hell of people don’t believe me when i claim that the Hellcat is a Yak killer…😎
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Well… this has been eye opening.
It turns out the Instructor isn't type rated for the F6F-5 series either
He is every bit as bad in the F6F-5 as in the F4U-4.
That’s a whopping 4 deg/s you give up flying with the instructor. Its chubby big brother doesn’t rate quite as hard. However, they both out rate the Yak-3… and it’s not especially close.
It must be noted that the Hellcat also turns tighter than the Yak-3.
What the Hellcat doesn’t do as well is maintain energy/speed - but, that’s probably a product of how much harder it pulls and how much tighter it turns. The F6F-5 pilot that conserves energy effectively is in a good spot! In fact, the Hellcat versus Yak-3 comparison still favors the Hellcat when both pilots use keyboard controls.
All of which reminds me of a highlight I recorded a long while back…
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👍
Correct - the only way for a Yak-3 pilot to escape is to keep his speed high and initiate a prolonged fight with using multiple vertical maneuvers at altitudes between 800 and 1.400 meters (supercharger gear switch).
The longer it goes you feel the heavy weight of the Hellcat. As soon as you can keep the fight in the horizontal you win, especially as Yak pilots think they can turnfight everything.
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Holy shit
The instructor is a mess even on Japan. For example, Ki-44s can pulll roughly 85% of their max AoA, but Ki-84 only 65-70%. So Ki-84’s turning capability in RB is gimped like the 109s are.
There are other examples, but this is the easiest to point out.
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This is actually a tactic you can do in Sim to very good results. You climb in the Hellcat and you turn every fight into a downward spiral, where you have a large supply of stored up energy to burn in its extremely good instantaneous turn performance.
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Try the AM-1 at 550 kmh IAS, you’ll get a funni in realistic controls with max pull.
5g difference from the instructor lul
la 7 and la 9 both outturn the p51d30 but otherwise I agree with your comment. It probably does out turn the la11 but I haven’t actually tested that.
Ehy! A pro with 5.000 kills in the P-51 D-30 - nice to see that there are people able to use the plane properly. Respect👍
Regarding the La-7 and La-9/11 and out-turning:
You have seen that i use a Hotas in Air RB? I mean i clap a La-7 in a plain CHN F-47 or in the US/CHN/IT P-47 D-28/30 any day of the week as soon as i start on equal energy levels…so if you can’t outturn them you use either mouse aim with instructor or you fight enemies which use a Hotas.
I recommend to read this post regarding the impact of AoA limits for pilots using the instructor…
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Oh damn, I didn’t know you used HOTAS, yeah I use mouse aim so that’s likely the reason. Thanks for the clarification.
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I’ve found it unusable, thought I was a major skill issue on my part, and I don’t understand how it can only carry two 50kg bombs despite the heavier A-36 with a weaker engine carrying more lol
My U.S. P-51D-20 was sort of my training wheels when I picked the game back up this year.
I started back with about 50 games played and a roughly 45% WR (actually lower, I think) and a K/S that was around 1 (or less). I’m now at an even 100 games with a WR of 55% and 1.69 K/S.
There are some very good players (much better than me) flying the P-51D-20, but I guess it’s something of acquired taste.
The D-20 is good for learning discipline, positioning, target prioritization… and certainly makes it easier to fly the rest of the Mustang family. Why the Swedish variant doesn’t get late war tracers is… weird. Nowadays I prefer the D-10 - it’s a “proper” Mustang that doesn’t see 5.7, but it’s not quite the pub stomper that the C-10 is.
I cannot comment on ground load out for Mustangs… across all variants, I think I’ve played 256 matches (which isn’t a lot, I know) and taken ground ordnance exactly zero times ;-).
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DISCLAIMBER: lvl 28 noob speaking. I have two mustangs and one has just absolutely rediculous performance and x10 .50’s and the other is slightly lighter, climbs better, and is almost double the br and has worse armament… I’m prolly just a stupid noob who can’t figure out how to play the mustangs…right? Nothing strange about that balance at all
I’m a level 79 Noob (I think the cool kids type it n00b)… I make mistakes ALL the time.
I can tell you what some of my big problems were (and sometimes still are). I started with Arcade - and when I started ARB, I wanted to fight the D-20 aggressively, just like in Arcade.
I had to step back and examine how the Mustang actually performs - and its acceleration/energy generation are not good, particularly at low speed. Combined with mediocre MER, you get a plane with a low sustained turn rate and very limited ability to maneuver in the vertical… but very good handling at speed (with the exception of the rudder) and good speed in a straight line.
Sticking an engagement long enough that it becomes and engagement with an energy disadvantage or starting an engagement from an energy disadvantage (or parity), particularly against a more maneuverable plane, isn’t likely to end well… sometimes you can trade altitude for speed and escape/reverse… sometimes not.
The Mustang pilot needs to be very deliberate about how they setup their engagements… and then they need to finish effectively. The Mustang is excellent at going fast and flying straight… if you’re doing those things, you’ll find more success than doing things the Mustang is not good at (going slow, turn fights).
The Mustang isn’t particularly good at climbing, but I climb anyway… because sometimes trading altitude is the best way to go fast. I do something the Mustang is mediocre at to later do something the Mustang is good at.
I had a match a couple weeks back now where a D-30, my D-10, and one D-20 clutched against something like 6 or 7 bandits… because a group of semi-competently flown Mustangs is oppressive. That D-30 ended with like 7 aerial victories, we each had 2/3… so the three of us accounted for 12 frags. I spent a lot of time baiting for that D-30, actually…
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J36 is a better plane/fighter than your A36. It isn’t as good FOR ITS BATTLERATING but compared directly it’s definitely superior. J26 (And other P-51D-5/D-20 variants) are not great but later P-51D-30 and P-51H are as well as the early P-51s you have already probably seen.
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With the mustang, you have to know the characteristics of enemy planes. I use the P-51D-30 a lot, it’s pretty decent for boom n zoom. Always try to have an altitude advantage over your opponent, and if they are in a spitfire or a zero (or anything that turns fast), just hold wep and speed away until you can safely climb back up.