Technology advances
Difficulty does not
Now who’s larping 🐣
Again, this is not what would happen, we aren’t removing notching completely.
And it’s also a deflection, say an actual suggestion other than “not this” or “the current one is fine”. Show initiative, if you think the current gameplay loop has flaws.
Defeating missiles kinematically while staying on the offensive as much as possible requires more skill/experience than notching.
Again:
Also spawn camping is already an issue right now. It should be fixed regardless of anything else.
Third-party data link may be too much and I think you’re not alone on this. It would be a completely new mechanic, not making current ones more challenging.
Whether it should be implemented would be decided after seeing the effects of previous, more moderate changes.
At the same time I think if only that would be implemented with current notch gates etc., it wouldn’t achieve the desired effect of making long range missiles competitive. Another reason why it probably shouldn’t be added yet.
Just make sure you ask for landing clearance in correct terminology when you go back to rearm, after all your missiles missed, otherwise snail ATC will get mad.
If its all missile prox fuses, kinda worried its gunna nerf the Rapier because the missiles will be exploding ever further away now and doing even less damage
It really doesn’t.
If I am at 10km, mach 2, and you are just taking off…guess who’s going to have to make a 180 degree turn and run to map border?
People tried to play like that when ARH first dropped and battle always ended right above enemy runway or at map border.
You effectively are though.
For instance you can play the game and notch missiles without use of chaff currently. It’s something myself and others have done in the past.
What do most players do when they have a stock plane? They just fly into multipath. Heck even earlier in the thread there were calls for stock chaff because attempting to fly against radar missiles without it is seen as too oppressive.
Nope, think Panter is the only one slightly suggesting buddy link, most are in agreement that wouldnt be a healthy system, so feel free to cross that one off the list.
Yes notching would most likely maintain the same fundamentals but slightly harder. Personally i think DL reworks alone would fix alot of what we are talking about, which would mainly only effect long range launches. Not really enough room to launch on someone taking off and shift poistion enough to make DL work as the angle differences take time to create and missiles are very very fast. Not to mention this is a two way suggestion. Im suggesting a DL rework in both directions for both look up and look down. This theortical SU30 pushing your runway would also have to deal with a more difficult defense depending on his situation.
Probably no different then it does now, since in this situation one team has already gotten map authority and essentially won the match. Since most players just leave when approached with these odds anyways, i doubt there would be any noticeable difference to current gameplay loop in this regard.
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I’m talking about regular engagements, not ones where you get spawn camped.
If you’re just taking off, you will always be at a massive disadvantage in any plane, even in props. I don’t think that’s surprising.
When ARH first dropped people were headbutting them, because they were still multipathing at 100m.
It’s oppressive when you don’t have chaff and have to defeat them kinematically/by multipathing, while the enemy does have chaff and can defeat them by sneezing.
If notching was harder, it would actually level the playing field a bit, although still not having chaff with 40m multipathing for example wouldn’t be fun. That’s why stock chaff should be added whenever multipathing gets decreased.
Dont think anyone here thinks no stock chaff is a good idea even in current gameplay.
I wouldn’t say even in current gameplay. In current gameplay chaff is very powerful, so not having it is a big deal. It’s kinda the same as not having stock Fox 3s.
If chaff usefulness was reduced, it wouldn’t be so crucial.
I would say even after making these changes there should be stock chaff.
Im of the opinion if they expect you to fight fox3s they should give you the tools to defend against them from the start. Same argument applies to flares and irccm missiles. The lack of difficulties to notch current fox3s shouldnt mean gaijin shouldnt give players the tools to defend against them to begin with.
So the basic solution is to press RTH and find a more balanced game.
Every single game I have played on Afghanistan in past 2 days has been lopsided in favor of red at any one point. Two of those games were able to be turned around in large part due to notching being effective. If I had to do a 180 degree turn as soon as I spawn because missiles have to be NEZ-defeated then it’s about 1-2 grid squares before map border.
Those are normal engagements and they happen regularly in just organic gameplay.
Note how I get blown up next to the runway. So just choose a different runway? Well once again engaged basically within a grid square of the spawn. This is just a normal game by the way and the ONLY Afghanistan lobby available at the time.
What your describing is the current state of the game. Youve described what the majority of players already do “RTH and find a more balanced game” and then the howd you put it, 5-10 players that can notch in game? They tend to stick around and sometimes even turn the match around.
Your hill to die seems to come from your impression kinematics would be the only defense from here on out. Yet notching would still be a thing, just possibility of slightly tighter angles, and a reworked DL system. Im not sure how you look at this and conclude runing away your only option.
I dont how else to say it. You would still be able to notch and defend, and have a working look up DL guidance to also use as defence.
Perhaps because top tier is incredibly unbalanced beneath all the MCM.
Is it true though?
Wouldn’t it be better if notching was slightly harder for you near the ground than now, but much harder for the guy up high? Making it so it’s actually harder for him to notch than for you?
Because currently it is much easier for the guy up high than for you near the ground.
Also if notching wasn’t as effective, perhaps you wouldn’t be in this situation altogether, because the game would be more balanced.
And the enemy doesn’t get blown up because your missile got 2 chaffed. Because he’s up high and notching for him is much easier than for you.
What in the cope did i just watch. 8 minutes to show you fail to notch two missiles with the system we already have, try and notch an iron domer at high alt with no energy, and suicide into an iron doming EF. Yeah man if i threw for the sake of a clip im sure id have alot to complain about too.
What are you trying to prove with this? Getting camped sucks? That missiles are actually hard to notch now? You and i both know you of all players have the ability to deal with each situation in that clip.
How did the 5-10 players learn how to actually turn around a game?
I would hazard to guess that most of those players would not have even stuck around to play the game and learn if during F-15C meta if notching was as hard as it is now; that isn’t to mention if it was increased to whatever this new hypothetical level is.
Look at the original post and read it.
How many players does this gameplay loop actually apply to?
It’s basically SimplySinful, Kizvy, and Alex137rzt. Maybe I am included on a good day.
The vast majority of players still predominantly only use 2-dimensional notching. This “gameplay loop” only applies if you are playing against these players which maybe Panter2005 has tried, which good on him if he has, but most other experienced players will not even make the effort…but this is not the gameplay loop for most players in most games.
Like I get it…I played against Simply in F2A, Krin in Mirage 2000, and some other bozo on Denmark the other day in an F-18C. It was frustrating to basically have zero chance when you are solo fighting 3+ dudes in VC in whatever shit is best at the battle rating…it’s why most people wont do it. But also this new “feature” is just going to make that process even more one-sided.
And then for the rest of the players in the normal game, that aren’t being dominated by guys who have been playing for the past 3+ years are likely to find new notch gates and narrower angles to be something that isn’t worth the effort as long as multi-pathing and MCM exist. If those mechanics are removed then you likely just create situation where one team is farmed by the other at an even faster rate.
This would be especially true at transitional BRs where countermeasure counts are not as high as top tier.
I have no clue what they would or wouldnt do. Considering these changes are suggested for NOW and not 2 years in the past to create some alternate timeline where no one learned how to play the game, im not sure how this relates.
13.0 - 14.0 would probably not see a ton of changes, we would mainly see it in top tier where the EASA is at. Mech scan radars would probably see minimal DL changes since they dont send constant immediate updates. There would be some planes like the C10 mainly that would, but this would only serve to bring it hopefully up in BR by alot where it deserves to be.
Re read, i still see nothing that leads me to the conclusion that kinematics will be the only meathod to defeat missiles. Nor do i see any mention of removing notching entirely.
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Let me spell it out to you.
All of the people that “got good” and that have proven that notching is “too effective” got to perfect their techniques in an environment that was far more permissive and allowed far more room for trial and error. Even at the height of F-15C meta the notching mechanic was far easier than it currently is.
It is now 2+ years past that point and we are suggesting that the mechanic needs to be made more difficult because when a good player does it, it renders long range missiles irrelevant. Gaijin could turn the effectiveness of chaff to zero and it would have a much smaller effect on myself or SimplySinful; in fact in Gaijin has done it in the past and the LARPers finally rejoiced that the game was finally realistic!
The argument being made now is that some variation of decreasing the effectiveness of the vertical notch (this or more or less what is outlined in the OP) needs to happen because it is too effective. And that some variation of reducing notch angles, making missiles impossible to notch from low to high, datalink reconnect, and buddy-datalink need to be implemented. This is couched in the terms that these reductions would be incremental and be stopped at some indeterminate point that would make longer ranged shots more relevant and until it is “balanced”.
In order to target the skill ceiling for notching you are also dramatically raising the skill floor; or if we take other posters at their word…turning notching into more of a gamble and less of a reliable technique. This change will have next to no effect on me because I will just adapt to whatever the new meta is or just not play the game. However everyone else that hasn’t already had the chance to learn in a more permissive environment is going to default to the path of least resistance which will be the other mechanics like multipathing or MCM.
But those mechanics have to be changed so the game can somehow force the correct player behavior; which was exactly what the 60m multipathing change was supposed to do as well. Well what is the correct behavior? It is to form a BVR-Grinder from your airfield to the center of the map; hence the Gordie NFT. Except this doesn’t actually work because whatever team loses map control early on will have a massive uphill battle to attempt to regain it once their spawn is pushed.
One of the few things that WarThunder has going for it is that it is something that is simple enough to be approachable for someone who doesn’t spend hours on end playing the game. What is being suggested here is basically to make it so that the barrier to entry is even higher because a few players that have no-lifed the game can notch too consistently.
Like hypothetically, why shouldn’t the chaff notch gate be changed to the current chaffless notch gate? This would narrow the angle and mean that mistakes in notching would be punished more severely? This would arguably be realistic; at least it was in the eyes of some realism advocates? I can notch a missile without chaff and I think it can be done reliably if you are skilled enough. Would this make the game better?
You seem to be hyper focusing on what was posted and not on what has been discussed. I’m tired of repeating myself and I don’t want to turn this thread into a brick wall back and forth. I’ll agree to disagree.
I have read what’s been discussed. Why shouldn’t the standard notch gate be set to the current one without chaff? Would this not make the game more skilled and make long range missiles more relevant?