You make it sound like these are some secret shaolin techniques to defeat Fox 3s.
I see no issue with simultaneously reducing the number of players to 8v8. It’s just a good change to make overall on its own.
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And you can also just get low to the ground while inside the notch angle. The missile is forced to turn on its PD filter and therefore it cannot see you. No chaff required. With just a little bit of practice, you can even do this reliably in DCS where multipathing isn’t a thing and notching at altitude is nearly impossible lol.
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I hate denmark
So much
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This is a big statement and a hypothetical. What premises indicate that it would happen?
People up high would be more vulnerable to missiles, as they would hardly be able to notch them at all against a clear sky, while people taking off would have a lot of ground clutter around them and notching would be much easier for them.
Gaijin isn’t going to. Period.
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You can shut down any proposal this way. It isn’t constructive criticism.
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Possible: Gaijin implements this nonsense without any changes to 16v16 and they further ruin the game
Not possible: gaijin does 8v8 at all, ever
Wasn’t there literally a 6v6 game mode for a while or something? I think it was a guns only game mode.
They absolutely did quit when Fox-3 was added. The game was extremely imbalanced in favor of USA teams for the first year or so that they were in the game because double-scan radar bug + Su-27 being basically like flying around completely blind.
The whole “vertical notching” technique and “red side super squad” was developed to counter USA AMRAAM spam when it was hordes of F-15C against nearly blind Su-27s.
Because this is what already happened as soon as AMRAAM was added. Spawn camping players until they quit is something that more experienced players have effectively mastered. But pushing guy to his spawn is something that was happening as soon as AMRAAM dropped.
Wasn’t it roughly 6 months?
From their addition in June 2024 until Storm Warning later in December, which we all know what it brought.
That was the case before the Fox 3s were added objectively speaking.
And then again the point you’re making implies people quit because of the imbalance, not because of a new mechanic.
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The change I’m proposing would help with balance, not make it worse.
How would it balance it out?
How exactly do you envision your revised notch mechanic working? Would the chaff notch gate be the same as current MICA? Or would it have to be reduced even further since most the same players that can easily notch Aim-120 can also successfully notch MICA most of the time if at reasonable distance? What if the planes radar is still on the target? Then does datalink cause it to basically ignore notch unless both radars are notched? What about Buddy data link? How is that going to work?
Any increase in notching resistance buffs long range missiles with poor pull off the rail; their weakness is the main reason Fox 3 tier is unbalanced.
For example notch gate reduced for all Fox 3s by like 20% or something as a start.
Or any of the following:
That’s kinda what this thread is for, to discuss the specifics.
That’s what the small steps are for as well, to find the optimal values, how much to nerf notching, without overdoing it.
Data link already works as it’s supposed to, it’s just missing data link reconnect; 1 hiccup, you lose DL connection and it’s over.
Also data link often simply never has the chance to work. Currently Fox 3s, when looking at a notching target against a clear sky, switch from pulse doppler to pulse, instead of IOG + DL, and bite onto chaff. This is not how it should work.
I guess the same as if your missile missile was the teammate’s, it becomes everyone’s missile.
Technically I think it would require something like Link 16, a unified view, so that 2 people tracking the same target would produce only 1 contact.
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I think this is a huge part to the puzzle. If DL was reliable, long range launches, then shifting angles from the missiles flight path would be way more effective. Reaching a different angle then the missile would allow DL to actually function. This tactic sortof works right now, but if they notch the missile and stay in the notch relative to it, DL just doesnt do a good enough job.
Im still of the opinion this would be too complicated and probably too reliable of a mechanic. It would be cool as hell, but not sure it would be a healthy mechanic for the game esspecially with the current map sizes.
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The issue is that DL stops working when the missile goes active and by the time DL kicks back in after a notch, its too late usually for the missile to correct back onto target. Especially with IOG drift.
I think one of the first places to start is to change it so that DL remains active during the terminal phase, but once broken, stays broken. So to defeat a longer range shot, being maintained by DL, you need to notch both the launch aircraft and the missile.
I would want some RWR overhauls though, and would be good to be added alongside ECM
Withwise of Link 16 stuff. I would start by having radar contacts shared between aircraft. Not necessarily being able to guide each others missiles, but the contacts would appear on applicable teammate radars and then you could cue your radar onto one of those shared contacts, locate them on your own radar and then you can fire at them.
Go from there
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Yeah exactly that. I dont think it would be too oppresive either since it requires the aircraft launching it to remain some what offensive. Things like the SM2 and 100deg euro jets would in theory be able to take advantage of it pretty reliably, but any kind of pressure elswhere would force them to break DL.
Some sort of relaible look up DL would also be helpful. From what i understand DL really only works when the target is below the shooter. Im not sure if this is realistic or not but the ability to also relaibly DL looking up would help to make high fliers less oppresive.
I think this is another great thing to look at. RWRs being as accurate as they are definitely plays a big part in making notching as easy as it is right now. Making them less accurate for longer ranges would be a good change for sure.
As far as ECM goes though, thats so new i dont even know what to expect. I can forsee it being a very buggy and quirky mechanic when we get it.
Yeah absolutely. I should clarify as a base feature im for it. We kinda have a lite version already with EF2K HMD but thats all based on your individual radar. Shared DL info would be fine. My only issue is the communal DL guidance, i think that would be a bit much.
It also makes using notching as a mechanic far less appealing to a layman player. Even with our current generous notch gate mechanic the majority of players still rely mainly on multipathing and pick maps specifically to that.
There are maybe a whole 5 people in Air Sim at top tier that can reliably notch the MICA on any regular basis; and I am only one of them on a good day and if I have had some practice.
So it works…except it actually doesn’t.
So let’s assume some version of the following;
- Notch gates get reduced to current MICA level. (This is missile that most players try to avoid playing against currently because it is difficult to notch.)
- Datalink works correctly so that it will guide all the way to the target if the missiles radar is notched.
- Link-16 and similar implementation now makes it so that datalink will switch to friendly radar.
Basically all of the above creates a situation where notching doesn’t work at all. This also means that the team with more radar coverage is at a massive advantage which just compounds the whole fiasco of people quitting and causing imbalanced teams.
This gets even worse if multipath is reduced or removed because whatever team gains map control early on is just going to farm people as they takeoff and it will be even easier.