Overall gameplay loop is the same, boring as hell with little skill involvement
I don’t believe you. Further, I know for a fact the majority would not like this.
You are quite literally taking the current game and removing options for avoiding missiles and streamlining everything down to just “don’t be within range” and that’s literally it.
The F-14 already plays like this. This is quite literally already in the game for the F-14. Do you see people saying the F-14 playstyle of firing in BVR then RTBing is fun? And you want to make every jet play like this?
Nobody can argue that and actually make any good points. Notching is already a skill that only a minority of the playerbase is good at. You are effectively making notching an extreme gamble and removing even more of the playerbase from being capable of doing it because you want to BVR larp. Larp. Let’s be real.
When ARH were announced they are coming,i was excited. But now few years after,i can tell it was a mistake. I dreamed about firing my Phoenixes at 80 nm on hot targets just like in DCS and absolutely obliterating them. Or doing 40 nm AMRAAM C-5 shots. Unfortunately in WT the AMRAAM rarely hits 40km launch, and so does Phoenix. And if you climb,you are at disadvantage to someone who multipaths and just send a missle on you from below.
No,cause missiles in WT are nerfed artificially by things like multipaths,seekers,etc. DCS playerbase knows how to notch too,or kinematically defeat missiles like Tor or S-300. And there is less than 16v16 usually on servers.
Notching isnt trivial currently, people on the HIGHER END just figured out how to do it and think because they know how to do it that the playerbase has. I’m a top 5% player and I can still mess up a notch occasionally because its not as easy as people here want to make it seem.
Yes, removing options = less skill. That’s how that works. Especially when the only remaining option is the LEAST skillful method that currently exists in the current game! This is very, very, very easy logic to follow.
Notching requires far more skill in its current state than going cold does. That’s a fact. That’s common sense. One requires you to get into a precise angle that eliminates your relative velocity, requiring you to either get good at eyeballing the angle you’re at or requiring you to observe your RWR and make corrections all while you have a limited time to act. Going cold requires you to turn 180 degrees and fly straight until the missile cant catch you. It’s ridiculous I even have to explain this. Disagreeing makes you unreasonable and not exactly worth having a conversation with
it does not. somebody put together data from all the missile currently in game into a google docsheet, every ARH missile has DL reconnect set to off. this is data gotten from datamines.
I didn’t “remove” anything. If notching becomes more difficult and multipath is reduced or effectively removed, there are still only a few ways to avoid ARH missiles, which I have already put forward to you.
Average game in BVR: literally every jet turning to notch
The few players who are AFK or just ignore RWR: what you said
Like it is in reality…?
You’re assuming a huge portion of the playerbase can’t perform the one thing that’s been discussed, joked about, and even advertised by Gaijin themselves in a tutorial as something players should know how to do, and you’re using that as a reason not to make the mechanic more realistic.
Really…?
So, if we remove the current 60 m multipath limit, and force players to now have to fly at let’s say 30 m, this is less skill, correct?
Also, if we gave every single ARH missile MICA seeker stats, thus making it just a tad harder to notch, this would be less skill, yes?
You’re just… forgetting one thing.
Missiles still have energy in BVR.
That energy doesn’t go away just because you turned cold ._. Most missiles will still catch you if you just turn cold.
To be honest, your arguments are all over the place
You removed multipathing and made notching an extreme gamble. Effectively making the meta to solely larp in bvr then rtb.
Don’t even know what you’re trying to say here, plenty of fights in this game happen at sub 10-12km range even at top tier if you’re trying to say nobody gets close besides bad people, furthermore most good players are closing distance and trying to get high percent-to-kill shots rather than larping at 40km
This isn’t reality. Don’t make me explain again why 16v16 chaos does not allow perfectly realistic gameplay combined with the literal hundreds of other things WT does that don’t match reality solely in air RB.
I’m not assuming anything. Go actually play the game and go see how many people successfully notch your missiles.
Yes, because then multipathing is purely non-viable because the game isn’t being played on a minecraft superflat world. The terrain in this game does not allow the MP ceiling to be 30m and still allow you to actually use it. You are already scraping treetops on a lot of the maps at 50m.
Yes, because the game even further goes in the direction of BVR larping instead of dynamic gameplay.
Turning cold drastically reduces chance for the missile to impact you even at sub 20km. But I shouldn’t have to say this a fourth time, and I’m sure you’ll make me say it a fifth time, the game is going to be pushed much further into BVR larp territory than it already is so you’re not going to be turning cold at 20km, you’re going to be turning cold at 40km, and nothing in this game, even an AIM-120D or AIM-54 Phoenix, or Fakour-90, is going to hit you at 40km cold
You want an INCREDIBLY boring and one dimensional game. You just want to reduce player options and that’s it. That’s the entire goal, reduce player options and tactics. It doesn’t help the game at all.
It’s so trivial that you couldn’t figure out how to do it the last time I saw you in a sim game. And this was before the MICA got the improved seeker. In fact it is so trivial that most sim games now take place on flat maps.
There are currently 3 ways to defeat ARH missiles in the game.
Notching
Multipath
Missile - Counter Missile
Of those 3 methods notching is arguably the least popular option and only popular amongst skilled players because mastering it means defeating missiles isn’t a gamble or waste of other missiles.
You’re presenting the outcome you’re predicting as though it’s an inevitable consequence of these changes, rather than actually demonstrating that it would become the meta.
I’m not removing multipathing because I think low-alt defensive play should disappear. I’m arguing that the current implementation is overly generous. If reducing the ceiling to 30 m makes multipathing unusable on normal maps, then the solution is to find a better implementation rather than treating the current 60 m ceiling as untouchable.
And yes, I’m intentionally proposing making notching a much bigger gamble. That’s the point. I’m not arguing that notching should cease to exist, I’m arguing that it shouldn’t be the near-guaranteed defensive solution it currently is. If you execute it perfectly under the right conditions, it can still work, but it should require considerably more precision and carry considerably more risk. And as I’ve said before, like it is in reality.
You keep reducing the proposed changes down to “fire at 40 km, turn around and RTB”, but that’s a scenario you’ve constructed, not a conclusion that follows from the changes themselves.
There’s also a pretty relevant precedent here. When multipathing was first reduced, people initially dropped like flies because the playerbase had become accustomed to relying on it. Over time, people figured out how to survive without relying on it as heavily, which largely meant learning to fly better and adapting their defensive tactics.
There is nothing stopping the playerbase from doing the same thing again. A change making an existing tactic less effective doesn’t mean players will simply give up and resort to the most passive possible strategy. They’ll adapt to the new mechanics, just as they did before.
Your whole “No don’t do this, it will become BVR larp” lead to this reply. I’m simply going by what you’ve been saying. Now dropping it down to from 20 km to now 10-12 km range makes it even more confusing. What’s next, 5 km and under?
Would be weird for a game modelled after reality to completely disregard how these things work in reality, no?
We can model (or try to) various vehicles to mimic realistic performance, but apparently it’s forbidden to apply the same principle to mechanics based on real life.
Just played. Of 8, only 3 destroyed their target. All under 35 km fired at Mach 1.7 at 11 km.
Want me to play another?
Exactly. If the example of 30 m makes multipathing non-viable because of terrain, then that demonstrates that the current implementation is heavily dependent on an artificially generous altitude threshold.
Both can and do happen.
Interesting. Without context this could mean anything from a high altitude chase to a scraping the deck pursuit. Which is it?
Whatever a player does to survive in this theoretical is their choice. Wanna turn around the moment you spawn to avoid the initial missile barrage? Go for it.
Want to fly head on and take your chances? Go for it.
It is currently “incredibly boring and one dimensional”. You cannot seriously believe that strictly going below a threshold, flying in a straight line, or simply performing a notch with a generous margin for error is particularly rewarding.
It isn’t rewarding at all. The multipathing implementation especially is effectively a get-out-of-jail card that requires very little active decision-making once you’re below the threshold.
MP is currently very easy to get around and nobody struggles to do so if they are aware of the ways how, we are very far from the 100m MP meta but you and others still think we’re right there
By making it an extreme gamble, you are effectively removing it as an option. Do you know what else is an extreme gamble? Losing all your speed when some guy is chasing you to force him to overshoot and maybe you get to shoot him. Same thing, nobody does it for a reason. The meta instantly becomes BVR larp and nothing else
It’s a direct cause and effect, and it’s so obvious as to see why that I don’t have to explain it for anybody being reasonable. If notching becomes an insane gamble to pull off, like it is irl, but the game is still 16v16 which it will be, then you will never actually try to notch because the better option is to maintain distance and turn cold.
YES, and their LOGICAL CONCLUSION will be to NOT MULTIPATH EVER and also NOT TRY FOR NOTCHING when its a 16V16 ENVIROMENT where ANYBODY firing just a 2nd missile would be enough to doom you, or even the same guy spamming missiles over and over.
You mean like it does constantly in every gamemode to make the game playable? You mean like it does 30 times a second?
WE DON’T DO THAT.
Because you’re firing in LOW PK shots in BVR LARP and hoping the other guy cant find his thumbs, go fire in a decent situation and find out how much of the playerbase can react fast enough when they have 10 seconds to figure it out instead of 30
What?
Currently yes, in your “new and improved game”, no.
It’s true in both scenarios bud, on the deck it’s even lower.
This is not what would happen if you made notching slightly harder. That’s the whole point of doing small steps.
Also you seem to not know that notching and going cold aren’t the only 2 options to defend. There’s also cranking, beaming, F-poling, and in general just maneuvering and diving into denser air, to drain the missile’s speed.
I think estimating how much energy the enemy’s missile has and how much you’ve drained, based on your experience, is more skillful, than flying at 90 degrees (95-100 actually), dropping chaff and looping up or down.
This has zero relevance. Sim isn’t getting unique notch and multipath mechanics. This would also apply to RB, therefore, its also relevant for me to talk about RB.
This is what the top 1% might be able to figure out and do. This is not what 99% of the playerbase is going to be able to do in a 16v16 enviroment.
The player-base didn’t adapt though. A lot of them quit.
The extent of the player-base adaptation has been the following;
All top tier squadrons basically quit or have consolidated around SimplySinful or TFS_64Mustang servers and predominantly play on the same team; I think in just a quick survey of replays I saw one instance of both players on opposite teams. It is actually “professional courtesy” for streamers to be on the same team.
Most inexperienced players end up playing on flat maps like Denmark where multipathing is still considered viable. Or in some planes you will have people doing the iron dome tactic.
If you put 2-3 experienced players on one team then top tier lobbies collapse in basically a sortie. The name of the game now is to play in battle ratings ranges that are constantly refreshed with premium players.
There has not been a single time in the games history where people have not launched missiles at people as they spawn. Multipathing has been the only thing that makes it so people can at least takeoff until they added MCM SAM sites.
Pretty much any kinematic defense of long range missiles is just going to be one player getting missiled over their spawn or at the edge of the map.
So what is average bozo who is going to learn the game going to do against long range missile under this new realistic scenario where multipathing doesn’t work, notching gates are narrowed, and AESA datalink will defeat notching? What happens with buddy datalink as well?