Im just gonna say the quiet part out loud about the br at 12.x and above

[Morvran]

@Normandy_Corsair

Are you even an advocate for decompression? Like do you understand at all what the goal is?

No system will be 100% perfect. Without GSB Curated MM because it will always be a range. Something will always be better than you and something will always be weaker than you. That will never change without spreading every aircraft apart so far that you only ever fight the same 2 aircraft and it would be boring as hell.

@Normandy_Corsair

You can’t have strictly better aircraft at the same BR as other aircraft that are even in the same NATION at the same BR

Mig-23MLD and Mig-23ML are the same BR
Phantom FGR2 and F-4J(UK) are the same BR
Tornado F3 Late and Sea harrier FA2 are the same BR

So?

@Normandy_Corsair

There is quite literally nothing better on Mirage F1 compared to Mirage 2K besides the fact it gets some useless radar missiles that won’t work 90% of the time in exchange for worse (everything else).

Right? And? They wouldnt be the same BR with what I proposed. Mriage F1 would be 12.0 and M2KD would be 12.3. Just like they are now,

@Normandy_Corsair

You also keep saying “drop down” when nobody here f* asked for something to be dropped. You specifically (YOU) wanted the M2K to stay if there was ever decompression, which means guess what? YOU’RE the one asking for it be effectively DOWNtiered! Not me! I’m literally saying it should stay relatively in the same position lmao.

All Mud movers are over BRed. This is a fact. They cannot move down currently, but if instead everything around them went up in BR, then the effect is the same. They get their correct BRs without creating further compression below. Win win.

Tornado Gr4 for example. Extremely hard to justify it being above 12.0 currently, but if everything above 12.0 increased in BR by 0.3. It would have the same effect as moving the GR4 down to 12.0 without actually moving it down to 12.0. Therefore 11.0s wouldnt have to face them.

@Normandy_Corsair

It’s literally a Mirage 2k. It is no different other than having no access to radar missiles. Zero other real differences that matter in air RB. The RMV variant even gets an HMD for the magic 2s…

the RMV is at 12.7 with only 2 missiles. Isnt that enough of a nerf to balance it? it shouldnt be 0.3 lower than the Gripen A with 6x IRCCM and HMD and is faster and can turn better. Thats rather stupid.

I think 12.7 is a perfectly reasonable place for it at the moment in terms of downtiers, but in uptiers its not strong enough. just like the GR4. By moving everything else up, you dont change the downtier situation, but you give you decompress what is above it.

@Normandy_Corsair

My guy I said MASSIVE power jumps in only 0.3br. The F-4S is the STRONGEST 12.0 jet. Period. Guess what? Go 0.3 higher and you have the LITERAL F/A-18 Hornet LMAO. The hornet shit stomps the F-4S while the F-4 is begging for mercy. It literally doesn’t stand a chance. This is not the same f* thing as going from a Mirage 3C at 10.0 to a Mirage 3E at 10.7 just because the 3E has flares…

and? F-18 should probably be 0.3 higher anyway. This is about broad decompression not individual BR corrections.

FGR2 is weaker than the F-4S and F-4S is weaker than Kurnass. So FGR2 at 12.0, F-4S at 12.3 and Kurnass at 12.7 would be perfectly reasonable.

@Normandy_Corsair

I am asking for general decompression from 1.0 to 17.0 you dunce.

Then go to another thread.

@Normandy_Corsair

Topic moved to general decompression, womp womp. You can’t talk about decompressing solely top tier like it’s in a bubble.

Hey, given the choice. Id rather see 8.0 - 10.0 decompressed over top tier. But this thread and therefore the post YOU responded to was ONLY talking about 12.x and above.

Gaijin is never going to decompress enough to everyone satisfaction.

@Morvran

How I would decompress top tier

1. Move all 14.0s to 14.3
2. move some 13.7s to 14.0 (like the F-15C)
3. Move some 13.0s up to 13.3 (ICE and F3 Late) Potentially move some 13.7s back down to 13.3 (mig-29SMT for example)
4. move everything from 12.3-14.3 up by 0.3 except for some of the mud movers (GR4, GR7, 2000D, 2000D RMV, JH-7A, etc etc)
5. move some 11.7s up to 12.0 (like the Mig-23MLD) and move some 12.0s up to 12.3 (F3 and maybe F-4S)

Congratualtions. You have just decompressed top tier

Implementing this would take 5 minutes. Its simple and deals iwth the 2 major issues we have right here right now at top tier. 13.0s fighting 14.0s and 12.0s fighting 13.0s.

Is it perfect? no.

Can it be improved in the future? yes

Its a quick and dirty fix for the immediate short term problems whilst they actually work on fixing the actual problems with the air trees. Like the fact all mud movers are massively over BRed or the fact that 8.0 - 10.0 is a total and complete mess.

I think people overexagerate the problems at top tier and expect the difference in BR between late SARH/IR Slingers like the Gripen A, F-15A, Su-27, etc and early ARH slingers like FA2, Viggen Di, J-8F, etc to be greater than 1.0 of BR. If anything, the SARH and IR slingers are stronger than the ARH slingers at the moment.

Likewise I dont really see a huge amount of issues with the intermediate ARH slingers and the late ones. At least not that couldnt be addressed with some minor BR tweaks after the fact.

Going down to below 13.0 and looking at 12.0-12.7. Its just things like the F-18, F-16, Mig-29, etc etc being too good in a downtier vs the 11.3-11.7s. Move them up 0.3 and a lot of that goes away.

Also as already mentioned mud movers in that range can finally get the “BR reduction” they desperately need but have been unable to get. Individual BR changes might happen after the fact if something proves to strong, but I dont think any of the mud movers need major BR changes at this moment in time within that range.

Of course when we get BELOW decompressed in the future. Then stuff like 11.3s could be moved relatively speaking further away from the 12.0/12.3s we have now or even with my proposed decompression. But that is a subject of quite literally another thread, not a matter for a “12.x and above” thread.

and I would propose much the same there again though. Move the fighters up and leave the mud movers largely untouched,

[sealboi_abc]

The F-4S is the STRONGEST 12.0 jet. Period. Guess what? Go 0.3 higher and you have the LITERAL F/A-18 Hornet LMAO

it gets worse

aircraft at 12.3 include:

• f/a-18a: 4th gen with 4 sparrows, 9Ls and a good radar
• f16a: 4th gen with 9Ls and what is still one of the best FMs in game
• mirage 2000cs4: 4th gen with 530ds, magic 2s and a very good fm

AS WELL AS:

• mirage 2000dr1: basically the cs4 but with more flares and no radar missiles
• kurnass 2000: an 11.3 airframe forced to play as a 12.3 missile bus… with only fox 2s. lmao.
• f4ej kai: a kurnass 2000 but… actually usable? you trade your pythons for 7Fs which is a worthy deal
• the jh7a for some fucking reason

[Morvran]

@Normandy_Corsair

Yes… because the game is COMPRESSED…

And the Mig-23MLD and Phamtoms are not above 12.0 and therefore not strictly speaking covered by my proposed BR decompression for top tier

F3 Late and FA2 would be addressed by it.

@Normandy_Corsair

Definitely not. The M2Ks do very well.

Okay, maybe its fine at its current BR. But Id still stand by it not needing to necessarily increase in BR.

@Normandy_Corsair

Not when you DECOMPRESS THE GAME and LOTS of things BELOW it have to move up. Fun fact, F-4S would not remain 12.0 and would be 12.3 or even 12.7 if we decompressed even halfway properly.

Naturally when you decompress 1.0 to 12.0 things at 12.3 and above would also move up. Im not proposing that if/when they decompress 12.0 and below that the RMV is still at 12.7, even if that means its a lower BR than a Sea Harrier or something.

Relatively speaking. Its definetly weaker than more than a few at 12.3 right now. Like the F-18 and F-16.

@Normandy_Corsair

Either you have very little understanding of meta or, no I’m just going to go with that. The hornet murders the F-4S.

Right? And? F-4S murders 11.7s and 11.3s?

@Normandy_Corsair

Won’t address the rest because I don’t really respect you much at this point.

Thank you for agreeing with me then and my proposal for decompressing top tier

[llSolitairell-psn]

@sealboi_abc

aircraft at 12.3 include:
[…]

• the jh7a

not a good plane
I’d take the Tornado GR.4 over it any day

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Morvran

Thank you for agreeing with me then

Just for the record, no. Not at all.

[AlvisWisla]

If the MLD moves up the F-4J/S/FG1 has to move up as well due to being superior.
Also the F-111C has to move up to 12.0 with MLD; and most if not all of the 11.3s have to move up as well.

F-4JUK is the most similar to MLD/ML.

@Normandy_Corsair

16 or 17 being optimal.

That’s not mathematically possible. Minor inconsequential differences between aircraft does not warrant different BRs; only tangible objective strengths warrant different BRs.

Just because an F-2A ADTW is the best dogfighter in the game does not mean the Tornado F3 Late should be a lower BR, or potentially the same BR depending on the analysis results. They are at minimum equals despite minor differences that equalize each other out for the most part.

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

we could also reduce max uptier from 1.0 to .7 so even if they add new 13.0s like su33 with many R27ER with R73 you would not face them in a 12.0 F-4J
since the whole 1.0 uptier thing was because the game was small now that its big you can change it

• yes
• no
• other (explain below)

[Nick_Cloud]

Either way it needs decompression and that’s another option for decompression.
If the max uptier goes to 0,7 , even without changes - hotfix- tomorrow- without changing anything else, the problems will be less than half than what it is now.
It’s the easiest solution and doesn’t need many changes.
However i don’t know how it will affect the other modes if the MM is connected.

The other thing is SB MM, which effectively gives limits to what you fight against. It’s already in game , not many changes needed. AGain you can push-hotfix it tomorrow .

Just making top BR higher can work, but needs a lot of work in re-tiering everything and spread the planes optimally.

Also you’d better make that poll a suggestion and advertise it agressively.

[Beeschurger]

@Morvran

move some 12.0s up to 12.3 (F3 and maybe F-4S)

I think you need to decompress more.

F-4S clearly outperforms other, current 12.0 Phantoms, but Tornado with its current kit (yes that included currently implemented BOLs) is better than F-4S, at least enough to warrant 0.3 BR difference.

IIRC you mentioned in different thread that SuperTEMPs are roughly 7F/M equivalent, so logicaly plane with superior radar, better IRs, similairly performing SARHs and more CMs (even if you account for the fact that 3x BOL drops are needed to reach effectivness of standard CM) should be tad bit higher, no?

[themadseventeen]

Replying to Im just gonna say the quiet part out loud about the br at 12.x and above - #29 by Morvran (forum broken)

While this is is a step in the right direction it’s a far from a solution we need. One BR step is basically nothing. We need at least 5 or 6 to properly decompress top tier and for that to propagate all the way down to early jets.

@Morvran

Potentially move some 13.7s back down to 13.3 (mig-29SMT for example)

Also you are so far removed from high tiers you started making up changes. MiG-29SMT is 13.3.

I suggest you actually play a bit at 12.0+ and reevaluate your proposal.

meant to reply to this.

of course the forum doesn’t work.
fine I’ll just link it.

[MotorolaCRO]

@themadseventeen

There was no vote. If you think that lowering the multipath height was a mistake I disagree. They should lower it even more honestly.

This is simply impossible to do without major overhaul of ARB.

[themadseventeen]

@MotorolaCRO

This is simply impossible to do without major overhaul of ARB.

We’ll we are in luck because I know exactly what needs to be done.

[MotorolaCRO]

And that is ?

[themadseventeen]

Air RB and its possible rework

Air RB rework Presented by @Macekeeks and @themadseventeen Before you start reading, take a few minutes to answer some polls regarding the latest update. As it currently stands, air RB isn’t suited for top tier gameplay. We have observed a few issues with it, for which we’ll offer some potential solutions. ARB can’t be fixed with a few tweaks, such as decreasing player numbers. It needs a substantial overhaul. Strike aircraft and fighters carrying A2G loadouts Right now, strike planes …

It’s like a year old without any revisions since then but most of it still stands

[AlvisWisla]

That would ruin the game permanently. There is no reason to compress the BR of the matchmaker over minority of compressed vehicles.

[MotorolaCRO]

Not bad, but you need to put a hard limit on the amount of strike/fighter aircraft.

[sealboi_abc]

yeah that’s kinda the point, 12.3 airplanes are extremely inconsistent in their quality

[ガブriel]

see: my point about things like the 16A/18A at 12.3 with the likes of uprated phantoms