They require skill but FnFs took a lot of it away.
This kind of goes for all helicopters as even SACLOS ones can “trade” missiles with an AA and they generally have a much easier time rearming.
But FnF ones are the main problem here.
ironically, I have failed to specify f&f helicopters in that post. I meant that people can play f&f helicopters skillfully, but they choose not to because they can make some kills just fine without it
Of course, many people are more than fine with just mindlessly slinging IR ordnance and actually getting something out of it.
FnF helicopters, other than maybe the Israeli AH-60, are not that powerful, as FnF missiles are still unreliable.
They are only really good at dealing with SPAA, although things like Pantsirs can still shoot them down, hide behind cover, and can even tank some of them.
Any map that has dense foliage or buildings often can render them completely useless, as tanks can simply get into cover without even knowing they’re even being fired upon, let alone have them hit the correct spot.
Can you name some?
F&F helicopters have a pretty low skill floor and skill ceiling, as you can only control them so much as when they launch.
Comparing with other helicopters, like ones with hellfires equiped, they have a much higher skill floor and skill ceiling, as they still have some control over how they guide in. You may want to stop using IRST auto-tracking when the intended target is near another vehicle, etc. If you’re even more skilled with them, you can lob them over mountains and use IOG for a while until they are close enough to the enemy - effectively making them somewhat of a f&f missile. However, this only works on some occasions, and is very difficult to do correctly. Not only that, most laser-guided missiles found on top tier helicopters are often slow and unmaneuverable, with little to no effective range. The only exception to this are the Mokopas found on the Rooivalk, the AKD-9 (trades damage and range for maneuverability) found on the Z-9WA, Z-19, and Z-10, and the AKD-10 (trades speed for maneuverability, damage, and 10km effective range).
Direct-fire ATGMs, like the Vikhirs, tend to have similar skill floor as the Hellfires, but have much higher skill ceiling due to their ability to go through foliage and smoke, and you do not have to rely on luck if the enemy so happends to pass them. You can even track them through smoke with the KA-52 using MTI radar mode.
This is why, to an average person, it makes sense that the AH-64D and Tiger UHT are at the same BR as the Ka-52, but does not really make sense when you consider their actual capabilities in competitive matches.
Ka-50s and Ka-52s in particular tend to be the hardest helicopters to play, and yet both are one of the best helicopters in-game - exceeding the capabilties of f&f and laser-guided helicopter platforms in most cases.
As for (top tier) helicopters being bad, they definitely aren’t as good as they once were, but they aren’t that great, especially when considering SPAA now get twice the number of missiles, the damage model changes, and the ever increasing air superiority provided by aircraft such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, and even things like the SU-34.
The ability to mark targets to automatically start firing upon them is a nice feature, but like @Славянский_Прострел said, experienced players already do this with other mechanics, like ‘attention to the map!’, drone pings, and yellow squadron markers. And this feature can also help inexperienced SPAA know where to look and expect helicopters (especially those who are coming from their helipads and straight into the battlefield).
yes, but there is skill in the types of tactics you can perform with them that are based around movement (for example the pop out-pop in method motorola talks about)
I think with just how effective the eurofighters and their equivalents are, gaijin should decompress top tier even further, without pulling helicopters into it
a gimmick that only picks up dead tanks
only the ka-52. i think ka-50 is a very unfortunate helicopter, it gets pulled into top tier matches all the time, and it is not fit for them (optics, lack of air to air missiles, etc)
edit: I forgot to mention how cheap heli v heli combat is if the attacker has f&f. i don’t know why gaijin made every f&f untraceable by MAW, but it basically simplifies the attacker’s side to “get in range of 5km, launch a few, bam”
In my opinion that’s the only thing keeping them in check.
This is highly map dependent.
Let’s start with starter helis with ATGMs. They’ll usually have 3km+ range and basic SPAAGs can’t really touch them unless they are hard hovering, but that’s kind of a skill issue.
Only SPAAGs that can touch ATGMs helicopters are M247 and PGZ with AHEAD ammo, others are nuisance at best.
Then at 9.7 you’ll have Mi-24s that have access to Shturms which will fight basic IR slingers that have hard time locking stuff at 3km, let alone 4km+.
I’ve recently used Type 93 that has optical tracking and I don’t remember locking anything beyond 3.8km. I’ve also seen helicopters dodging IRs which was kind of funny to see.
In my opinion Kamovs are a mixed bag that entirely depend on if enemies have AAs on the map or not.
Top tier AAs can shut them down to the point of them not being able to engage anything, which can’t be said for FnF ones.
But on the other hand, when there’s no AAs around Kamovs tend to do better as their missiles are faster and can be guided after launch.
That is the only thing you can really do with them, which is really one of the only advantages of them, along with being able to shoot multiple at different targets
Hell yeah.
GRB should’ve already been 14.0 or even 15.0 by now.
Sure, but that’s assuming there are dead tanks in the smoke. You can also reduce the scope of the radar such that it locks onto the target you want.
KA-50 is reasonable at 11.3, as it sacrifices the optics and lack of air-to-air missiles for 12 very potent anti-helicopter / anti-ground vikhirs. The 30mm gun also helps when dealing with aircraft going for a gun-run on you.
Comparing to the YAH-64, which gets no MAW, nor countermeasures, the Ka-50 is far better off in most cases.
F&Fs are good at taking out other helicopters, but smarter helicopter players tend to outrange you with 10km range missiles, like the Vikhirs, Mokopas, and sometimes even things like the AKD-10s.
helicopter
7.62 hits fuselage
can’t fire anything
spaa
8.87kg of explosives and a heat warhead capable of penetrating 800mm of protection hits the primary tracking radar, behind which sit 8 SAMs
radar broke
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last 2 kamovs are one of the best ways to reliably destroy an SPAA, you just need skill.
and still practically nobody does it lol. gaijin needs to force the majority of f&f users to play skillfully, otherwise it is bad business.
are you sure? a smart player would just be paranoid about enemy helicopter and will employ the radar and optics. you can dodge f&fs, the main problem is not knowing when you’re attacked. anyway, if you stay 9km away from the battlefield, you’re not being efficient at all. 2 kills per life kind of efficient.
We already discussed this, Kamovs need more than just skill to kill a competent AA driver while surviving.
im not sure if we came to that conclusion
I think we did, Kamovs are left to defeat almost a dozen missiles with nothing more than a handful of dumb rockets.
That’s the problem - they only really work well in open areas, like sands of sinai.
This is not really the case with direct-fire missiles, like the Vikhirs, and even with laser-guided missiles.
Starter helicopters tend to have really poor optics, no target tracking, and the AGMs they use have very poor maneuverability and damage.
Things like Gepards also tend to be able to take care of them, or at least throw off their aim.
They are fine at their BR, at least from how I see it.
Yes, IR missile SPAA tend to struggle with helicopters, and that’s simply just a hard counter.
Jets often hard counter helicopters, and I don’t think these helicopters are necessarily too OP.
Optical tracking found on the Strela and Type 81 can hit helicopters around 4/5km, at least from what I experienced. Although, at those BRs the AGMs also tend to have a better effective range than that.
I disagree. Top Kamov players often can overwhelm the SPAAs as long as they know where they are. The SPAAs always have to react to them, and can never strike first. They must predict when they will pop up if they want to hit first.
Here’s an example of what they do:
Even with the SPAA having faster missiles, the Kamov’s vikhirs are already 4km out and is now just 5km away before hitting the SPAA, for example.
The Kamov can also move backwards so that the SPAA’s missile needs more distance to travel (until you hit the 10km max range limit).
You will lose 9 times out of 10 to an experienced Kamov player.
Yup.
Well, you don’t have to be 9km away from the battlefield. The f&f helicopter can only lob their missiles at around 7km. Not only that, unless they are on your side of the map, they will also have to be somewhat far away from the battlefield (so that they don’t get killed by your SPAA / to try be as effective as possible).
This means that they only really can shoot you if you’re around 2km/3km away from the battlefield, assuming you are on your side of it, and the F&F helicopter is on theirs.
implying they’re nowhere close to the ground and are out of vikhrs? i usually send a few (depends on the spaa im attacking) and descend to the ground, where either the trees protect me or the proxy disables.
you have to keep in mind that they do slow down and drastically lose mobility after about 5/6km though
They still keep their momentum enough to out-range most SPAAs. And this happens with the SPAA’s missiles as well, although probably to a lesser degree.
They won’t throw your aim as you have sight stabilization.
Gepards can only harm very bad pilots from 3km out.
Them not being able to be countered from the ground is the problem.
I think radars exist just for that reason.
All of this implies that AA isn’t hidden and the whole map is surrounded by hills.
oh sure, but one more thing… where do you meet the so called top kamov players? sounds like a legend to me. their count must be in single digits, after so many battles on 3 servers as ussr, i’ve never met one
edit: typo
as it should. AA players that know how to hide or go hull down are so rare, they don’t even appear in my dreams