Germany 6.7-5.3 need more efficient SPAA

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pangolin_Fan

You can’t seriously be complaining with the strongest ground tree in the game.

What makes that true

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pecanin

Yes ,we are coping by fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.

When is germany doing that

[Pangolin_Fan]

@AllNationEnjoyer

wirbel can always be .50 cal’d even by shermans its just fighting, ostwind is really easy to do so still in planes because bullets bounce around inside the tank and hit ammo easily, both die as soon as .50 cals bounce around and hit the ammo in the turret

I’ve played both with and against Wirbelwind and Ostwind. They cannot be .50cal’d unless you’ve firing from high enough that their angled plates are flat.

@AllNationEnjoyer

What makes that true

Strong tanks backed by great CAS.

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pangolin_Fan

Strong tanks backed by great CAS.

germany doesnt universally always have strong tanks and they dont universally always have great cas, be more specific? Also, your description would apply to USA and USSR as well

[Pangolin_Fan]

Germany consistently has some of the strongest tanks in the game, regardless of BR, and especially at toptier.

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pangolin_Fan

Germany consistently has some of the strongest tanks in the game,

I’d say they’re up there yeah, but not necessarily some undisputed best

@Pangolin_Fan

regardless of BR

nah they have some bad BRs

@Pangolin_Fan

and especially at toptier.

its hit or miss tbh

[Pecanin]

All the time in 6.7/7.7

constant uptiers since brits and americans don’t olay those br’s as they know they will be downtiered if they play higher up …missile spam,artillery spam …not even going to mention cas from 1970 killing ww 2 tanks .

[Detach0-0]

I doubt that you haven’t check my ostwind2 K/D :)
BTW, flakpanzer 341 is op, but only a few guys get it.

[Detach0-0]

That is what I want.

[Detach0-0]

@Pangolin_Fan

Don’t forget Wirbelwind and Ostwind 2.

they are powerful below 6.0, however Zerstörer 45 can’t continue this Advantage

[Detach0-0]

@PercussionCap

With each barrel at 250rpm it can fire at up to 500rpm, so you actually have more consistent firepower than the Zerstorer 45.

The firepower projection is much much worse, even compare with 2 mk103.

@PercussionCap

They only fire at 450rpm and don’t alternate at all. It’s pretty poor in that regard.

chatgpt misunderstand it😂

[AllNationEnjoyer]

@Pecanin

constant uptiers since brits and americans don’t olay those br’s as they know they will be downtiered if they play higher up

thats uh… you pulled that one out of you know where, plenty of usa players play 6.7. uk doesnt play 6.7 because there is no 6.7 lineup lol

usa/uk see the same matchmaker

and germany 6.7 doesnt struggle in 7.7 games anyway

[Detach0-0]

No, germany 6.7-7.7 is terreible, the only and biggest reason is germany don’t have enough “battle tank” at this BR range, If you want to form a 7.0 lineup, you need to own the now-removed 105mm King Tiger and Panther II. If you want to form a 7.3 lineup, you need to purchase the M47 and RU251, as they are the only vehicles available at 7.3. If you want to form a 7.7 lineup, Germany only has the M48 at this BR (since the Maus is too slow to effectively complete team objectives). Even if you meet all these conditions, most of your German teammates will not. Additionally, due to Germany’s lack of a viable lineup between 7.0 and 7.7, the Ar 234 C and Me 262 C-1a rarely appear in matches.

[Detach0-0]

First, I am only discussing the experience of playing German SPAA in the 6.0-6.7 BR range.

I agree with your perspective—there’s no doubt that the Ostwind 2 is a great SPAA. However, compared to other anti-air vehicles like the M53/59, TPK, and the Rh 202, it is significantly harder to use effectively. We can’t expect every teammate to be highly skilled at playing SPAA, and this difficulty further amplifies Germany’s vulnerability. Moreover, the overwhelming CAS capabilities of the U.S. and USSR only make this weakness even more apparent.

About the wirblewind, wirblewind is op when it have 64mm pen havp, but not now

@LukavMineav

additionally a single 37mm shell is lethal to most planes and the alternating fire doesn’t reduce it’s lethality.

Whether you believe it or not, my 37mm often make only hit recently.

BTW, I didn’t exaggerate the SPAA of other nations—they are simply better. I know some highly skilled CAS players who don’t even consider the Ostwind a threat.

[山_田_凉]

@Detach0-0

When compared to other nations, such as the Soviet Union, Britain, France, Japan, and China, Germany’s anti-air capabilities in the 6.x battle rating range are noticeably weaker.

This is either ragebait or the writings of someone who has lost their grip on reality.

Every nation you have mentioned other than USSR has worse SPAA than Germany in this range. Britain only has the Skink at 5.3, its only advantage being its armour. France has the TPK 6.41, which is a good SPAA, but worse than the Zerstorer. Japan has… the M42 and a 5.3 IFV… China has the ZSD63 and air defense T-34, which are decent only as 5.X SPAA, as well as ZSL92, which has terrible anti-air qualities for 6.3 and should be reclassified as a light tank.

@Detach0-0

First and foremost, the Zerstörer 45 is not suitable as the main anti-aircraft vehicle in the 6.0-6.7 battle rating range. It lacks sufficient protection, and its open-top design exposes the crew, making them highly vulnerable to enemy fire.

Germany is literally the second most powerful SPAA nation around this battle rating, only exceeded by the USSR tech tree. The Zerstorer 45 has incredible fire power, and is all-around a powerful SPAA. Most other nations don’t even have actual specialised SPAA at this BR range. Open top, exposed crew? Almost every SPAA here is open top!

5 out of 10 nations don’t even have an SPAA in the 6.X BR range. That number goes up to 7 if nations without specialised SPAA are included. ZSL92 of China is worse at SPAA duty than the 5.X SPAAs, AMX-10P of France is inferior to the preceding TPK; both are misclassified and are actually IFVs. Ignoring the reality altogether and crafting a false narrative; typical “Germany suffers” post.

[Detach0-0]

First of all, I checked your stats, and you barely play Rank 3-4 (if this is your alt account, please speak on your main). Therefore, in my view, your evaluation of vehicle strength and the environment in Rank 3-4 is meaningless.

Additionally, the TPK completely outclasses the Zerstörer 45 in terms of rate of fire, sustained firepower, and dual-gun speed. I have no idea what makes you claim that the Zerstörer 45 is superior.

As for what you said:

Blockquote

@山_田_凉

Every nation you have mentioned other than USSR has worse SPAA than Germany in this range. Britain only has the Skink at 5.3, its only advantage being its armour. France has the TPK 6.41, which is a good SPAA, but worse than the Zerstorer. Japan has… the M42 and a 5.3 IFV… China has the ZSD63 and air defense T-34, which are decent only as 5.X SPAA, as well as ZSL92, which has terrible anti-air qualities for 6.3 and should be reclassified as a light tank.

I interpret it as follows:

1. You believe that Cold War-era high-rate-of-fire, high-muzzle-velocity 20mm autocannons like the RH202 are ineffective for AA duty at 6.X BR, which is completely wrong. Its projectile velocity, muzzle energy, and retained energy far exceed those of the MG151/20. Its performance is second only to the dual 37mm Flak44 and is fully capable of taking down 6.X propeller-driven aircraft. As for the MG151/20 (Wirbelwind), it has a low rate of fire, low muzzle velocity, poor energy retention, and a short self-destruct range—it’s absolutely not at the level expected for 6.X BR.
2. The PG87 has a rate of fire between the MG151/20 and RH202 (480 < 600 < 740), but its muzzle velocity is far superior to that of the MG151/20. At 6.X BR, it is more than capable of shooting down most prop aircraft.

Regarding the environment:
As a major nation, Germany at 6.7 BR needs to take on AA duties independently, unlike mid-sized nations such as Britain or France, which can rely on US or Soviet air superiority. Given the current environment where the German air force has been nerfed, German AA at 6.X must step up. However, the reality is that the developers continuously buff US and Soviet CAS, air superiority, and AA firepower while simultaneously weakening the German air force—the second-largest player base at 6.X—while throwing in a barely passable AA vehicle (Zerstörer 45) into the tech tree as a weak excuse.

And yet, instead of acknowledging this, you dismiss it and label me as just another “Germany suffers” complainer. Don’t you find that shameful?

[山_田_凉]

@Detach0-0

First of all, I checked your stats, and you barely play Rank 3-4 (if this is your alt account, please speak on your main). Therefore, in my view, your evaluation of vehicle strength and the environment in Rank 3-4 is meaningless.

I have no idea that hundreds of games means “barely played”. That must be my mistake.

@Detach0-0

You believe that Cold War-era high-rate-of-fire, high-muzzle-velocity 20mm autocannons like the RH202 are ineffective for AA duty at 6.X BR, which is completely wrong.

They are not ineffective. But they are much less strong compared to the 30mm cannons of the Zerstorer 45 or the 37mm of the Ostwind. Here is a table of comparison that I have made:

You can see that the characteristics of the specialised German SPAA are far superior. In particular, the Zerstorer 45 is extremely strong. Also, it is meaningless to compare these to the MG151/20. German tech tree SPAA doesn’t even use MG151/20.

@Detach0-0

The PG87 has a rate of fire between the MG151/20 and RH202 (480 < 600 < 740), but its muzzle velocity is far superior to that of the MG151/20. At 6.X BR, it is more than capable of shooting down most prop aircraft.

What is your purpose in comparing it to the MG151, again? Additionally, you should note that the ZSD63/PG87 has a long reload of around 15 seconds in addition to the low belt capacity. Combined with the low damage of the rounds, this SPAA is completely unsuitable for 6.X BR.

@Detach0-0

And yet, instead of acknowledging this, you dismiss it and label me as just another “Germany suffers” complainer. Don’t you find that shameful?

Your arguments have no basis in fact. They are opinions crafted through a biased mindset, ignoring the reality. Why should anyone take you seriously?

[TT33a]

Missing round types including APCR, the lack of common Flak vehicles, the removal of the fully turreted Flakpanzer 341, the over-BRing/tiering, the lack of alternating fire, the lack of a dedicated, fully realistic & operational Flak sight in the game & finally this most recent & incorrect insult by gaijin:

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/5ltU8IbBQ7wf

@山_田_凉

German tech tree SPAA doesn’t even use MG151/20

Maybe he meant the Flak 38 but the lack of MG 151/20 on vehicles is soley the fault of gaijin since their Sd.Kfz. 251/21 was released with a 15 mm instead of the expected MG 151/20 as well as other such vehicles that used both the 15 & 20 mm MG 151 Drilling mount are completely left out of this game entirely

[Sytryse]

Spaa should never camp near spawn and never stick together close because experience CAS players know where to hunt spaa.

[Ghostmaxi]

Not to mention the crime of makeing the 3 cm Pzbrsprgr. L’Spur an SAP round, while IRL it was an APC round with increased performance compared to the AP-I and Aphe-T, not reduced. There is no identification nor source material saying it should be SAP, while even the US Captured Ammunition Bulletin no.5 writes it as APC/HE/I/Tracer.