FW190 D-13. Such a high B.R for SB (5.3)

Game Discussion Simulator Battle
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21

Problem lay in different matter. From some reason plane in WT can archiving quite high AoA at low speed, can still climb well at high AoA even below stall speed planes have good nose authority.
Also planes not bleed speed properly resulting in conserve too mutch energy making energy fighting more difficult and less profitable.

In addition way how flaps working in this game from some reason not only decrease turn radius but suprise reducing turn time and planes still can get high AoA when deployed.

Resulting in monsters like F4U, Ki84 and some others light weight planes to highly overperform.

In other hand whole line planes based on FW190 behave strange. Plane was well know from high maneuverability in roll yaw and pitch what means supposed to archive high AoA resulting in ability to sharp turns.

In game FW190 behave strange like center of mass drifting in turn to tail. Have tend to get spotanous spin resulting in fast develop flat spin. Overall in WT FW190 just look like FW190 but exept max speeds it’s not perform like in real life. Especially when you see them in airshows I’m stunning these planes are still masterpiece of engineering

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Your comment was surgical. You seem to have read a lot about aviation. My issue is precisely this uncoordinated flight and extraordinary capabilities given in reports by those who piloted an FW190 not being present in the game in “simulation” mode. I’ve never had the pleasure of seeing any air shows live, but I’ve seen a lot on YT. I am amazed when I see the FW cornering almost like a 4-axle truck in the game. The history of the FW is extremely relevant in battles, it was a very feared aircraft in all the theaters it fought, I’m sure that if it were as limited as the game presents it would have been an aircraft of little production and with reports contrary to those we see everywhere .

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[quote=“z_galocegoz, post:10, topic:10128”]
Germany by-and-large gets their fighter planes in their ideal configuration with the maximum performance possible that they might have had. A perfect example is the Bf.109 K-4 running on 1.98 ATA which is basically an experimental engine setting that may or may not have been used in combat.[/quote]

The 1,98ata setting was used in combat by G-14/AS, G-10 and K-4 by II/JG 11 in January - February 1945 (West/East), then by all remaining Wings of JG 27 and JG 53 (West only). There are favourable German testing and operational field experience reports on it from 1945.

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I have only played it in RB, but always seemed a very underwhelming plane that gets easily outclassed in every category.

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There are also German reports that also end up casting doubt on whether or not the 1.98 ATA setting was used operationally. As near as I can tell it probably was but only by a few units and the 1.8 ATA setting was more common.

Regardless the overarching point that I was making is that Germany by-and-large gets the ideal versions of their own airplanes. 1.98 ATA is the best possible engine setting that could have been used, and awful production quality of late-War German airplanes is not reflected in-game either.

The OP completely undermined any of his grievances by insisting that Gaijin has some sort of inherent Anti-German bias because there is simply not any evidence of it. If anything Germany is slightly favored by Gaijin when it comes to modeling the performance of their airplanes at most battle ratings and it is done mainly for balancing reasons.

If the US or Britain received the same sort of leniency when it comes to setting the performance of their engines then the game would be incredibly unfavorable to German fighters; much more-so than it is now.

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Production quality is never taken into consideration, almost never.

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Yes, the FW190 is surpassed in everything by the other planes of your B.R. Key features such as high energy gain and powerful acceleration are overlooked by Gaijin. Before, it was even good to play, as the allies’ .50 machine guns weren’t as devastating as they are now. In these last few months any damage suffered by a .50 makes your plane useless. The FW was once an excellent dogfighting aircraft, even with its low turn rate. But at the moment it is a plane that is no longer competitive. For you to have a satisfactory game only if you face inexperienced players, even so at the risk of taking a burst of .50 and exploding in mid-flight. Any average or experienced player can easily win any dogfight against an FW190, which is notably RIDICULOUS.

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In addition to the things I mentioned, the MG151 guns are extremely inaccurate and do little damage with short bursts. Compared to the American .50, it seems like a bad joke. So you fly an aircraft that has numerous disadvantages, which is surpassed by your B.R’s planes in everything, and you still have to deal with the problem of inaccuracy. It wasn’t once or twice that I had the enemy in my sights and made irrelevant hits with the MG151. That’s when the shots come out randomly even though you’re with the aim fixed on the opponent. And when you miss the opportunity to shoot down the enemy, the game soon turns, and you can’t escape because of the extremely wrong flight model that the FW has. It is impressive how a plane with a high performance rate in numbers is so inferior compared to the others.

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If you could outclimb your opponents you could at least control the engagements, but Spitfires and such outclimb you and pretty much out perform you in most categories leaving you very vulnerable, and then you need like a 3km gap to even think about turning towards them.

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the spitfires are the least of the problems, the real problem is the F4U-4 and some other aircraft that retain too much energy and you practically can’t use any evasive maneuvers against them. If you are diving at 800km/h and miss an F4U-4 and try to climb again, if he has half your speed he will be able to climb behind you and hit you with bursts from long distances. This overestimated performance of certain aircraft and the poor performance of the fw is funny.

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There are a few things you have wrong;

  1. 50 caliber damage has not changed at all in recent months.

  2. The Fw-190 was never an excellent dogfighting aircraft. Not in real life or in game. The only time that Fw-190s were good in dogfighting is when Fw-190C was added and landing flaps did not have a rip speed. About two years ago when the landing flaps would not rip until over 600kph and it gave a huge advantage.

  3. In order to dogfight effectively in the 190 you need to be able to manipulate the flaps at the correct time or know when to bank on its energy retention. Most Fw-190 pilots I have fought in sim are actually completely clueless as soon as a US plane starts to maneuver and end up overshooting.

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Alright partner, first of all I’m sure you don’t play with the FW190 and you haven’t even read about this plane’s achievements on the battlefield (see English Channel 1942), but let’s put history aside and let’s talk about the FW problem in game.

As I already explained to you, I’ve been playing with the FW190 since 2021, I started in simulation battles playing the me-109, and as I saw that most pilots used the 109 I decided to try the fw190, in this time, the best players, those who stood out were always in a 190.

With a lot of training I managed to master the FW190, at first I was very angry, because the plane has an extremely low turning rate (which is actually real), any threat that would appear behind me was the sure of defeat. Trials, errors and successes, I learned to use the advantages of the FW190 (good roll rate, immediate rudder response, engine that admits negative G-force without showing failure, very fast speed reduction, structure that supports almost 900km/h, among others…).

You are again assuming that I am here wanting to make the FW190 something that it never was, neither in real life nor in the game: a fighter specialized in close-range confrontations (dogfights), my purpose here is not this, but rather, to question the model of FW190 both Antons and Dora! It’s not about saying “the FW190 has to have more advantage than everyone”, but questioning at first if the FW190 A5 (4.7), D13 (5.3), D12 (5.7) and D9 (5.7) are in place right!

You see, Gaijin put a premium Spitfire, from Israel, at B.R 5.0, the plane simply has a climb rate of 31 m/s, and it is an aircraft that NEVER saw any battle in the second war. And yes I’m going to point out about the .50 machine guns, even if you tell me here any nonsense about 50 caliber being an effective ammunition and bla bla bla, so if a 50 caliber can be effective, tell me how, a f… 20mm it is not? Could it be that allied planes were made of titanium? because as far as I know, and read, one of the advantages on the battlefield was the German aircraft armament.

Now you have a game that brings an extremely inefficient 20mm and it seems that when you take them out you are throwing hand grenades at the opponent given their inaccuracy. I’ll just keep playing the game, I like the FW190, I think it’s a formidable fighter for its time (the one in real life, not the one in the game), and I’ll try to relearn how to play with it and deal with the discrepancy in advantages of the allied team.

it’s what we have.

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I understand that in a game what counts is not just the aircraft but also the cooperation of the team and the strategy you choose, in addition to the skill.

Airplanes will always have their strengths and weaknesses, but what about when you have an aircraft that only has a weakness? I say this taking into account the armament that should be efficient, the drag that should be smaller, and I say that putting in checkmate all the historical advantages that the FW had in its time, which are portrayed in a very superficial way in the game. The technical sheet may be right, but the flight model does not match it, the numbers are there, but they are not passed on to the player!

In several dogfights, sometimes I end up being shot down because I’m fighting against 2 or more opponents without any team coverage, or because I miss the aim when shooting, or because I’m fighting at an altitude that brings me a disadvantage, or because the pilot opponent is better, or even why I end up missing some evasive maneuver and get hit, that’s acceptable, but I don’t accept being defeated because simply the gaijin wants to introduce the FW in a B.R where it doesn’t match its disadvantages.

But as I said in another post, a few months ago the performance of the FW190 was much better than today, many changes that gaijin applies in its updates are not available for the player to read. A great example was the modification of the Anton warm-up time.

Therefore, as you don’t play FW190 it’s difficult for you to understand what I’m trying to bring here. I repeat, the flight model of the FW190 especially the excessive drag on the Dora versions and the 20mm MG151 are completely wrong!

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Finally someone bringing attention to that israeli spit… And yeah, just the fact of the d13 being 5.3 and the other doras being 5.7 shows theres something wrong here, haha. And the cannons: just played with the f4u4b and its cannons impressed me, much superior than the german one in precision, speed, and consistent damage.
But i dont think theres something wrong with the earlier fws(like A4, and ones before doras)(*why is the fw A8 sooo smoth to fly? Lol)

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Another crucial thing is the applied damage models. Several times I hit enemies and caused light damage, even with 3 or 4 20mm cannons making it possible for the opponent to continue fighting normally.

Fighters like the P51 and F4U take wing damage and keep turning almost normally, but try taking damage on an FW190 and you’ll find it’s impossible to continue. There have already been cases of facing an F4U face to face and hitting that gigantic radial engine with a 20mm burst and the opponent took critical damage and even then not even smoke came out of the engine, I keep thinking, an airplane without fairing or protection being shot from 20mm in the middle of the engine can fly normally, this is frustrating.

The P51 already have titanium wings, there is a single weak point which is the tip of the wing that sometimes breaks, but in general, 1 or 2 hits cause little damage, we are talking about 4 cannons against 1 fighter!!! Honestly, it’s already difficult to fly the FW190, when with a lot of cost you can reverse the dogfight for a few moments, your shots are not able to take the opponent out of the battle.

Not to mention the difficulty of hitting, the projectiles are extremely slow even at short distances, you need to compensate a lot for aiming, especially when the enemy is making curves. It’s very difficult to play with germany compared to other teams.

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Está vendo? Existe sim essa desvantagem do FW em relaçao aos outros. Principalmente o modelo de dano, já é dificil inverter uma ameaça com o FW, e quando vc consegue os canhoes parecem atirar balas de borracha. Já passou da hora da Gaijin rever esses BR’s. Os unicos FW que se encaixam sao os A1 e A4, nao vejo qualquer motivo pro A5 estar em 4.7. E agora o motor do A1 e A4 estao aquecendo muito rapido. Ta complicado para quem joga de FW190 daqui a pouco vao tirar as asas do aviao kkkkkkkkk

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You always bring the faults of the FW 190 here and you think that everything should be considered, but you don’t mention several defects that the aircraft you operate had. In addition to several physical limitations of real pilots that in the simulation battle are treated superficially. The G forces that the Spitfires and Yaks faced would be unsustainable in many long-term battle situations. In addition to the clear agility with which the game reproduces the acceleration of the Yaks levers, the pilots operated 5 cranks to be able to accelerate and decelerate, this in a battle was crucial. Not to mention the extreme vibration of the cabin due to the fragile structure that the Yaks had, making it difficult to aim accurately… That is why in real life the FW190 was an extremely successful aircraft, being one of the deadliest on the battlefield, many physical limitation is not passed on in the current flight model. It’s no use for the plane to turn 90° in 1 second if it is humanly impossible to stay awake with that overwhelming G-force, or even manage to operate cannons and machine guns accurately when turning a sharp turn. So if we are going to consider ALL the limitations of the FW190, we have to also consider ALL the limitations and defects of the other aircraft. why don’t yaks have a lag rate on acceleration? The FW190 has only 1 lever with electric command to accelerate, decelerate and make the mixture in an automatic way for the radiator, the Yaks, spitfires, p51 and F4U’s don’t! This can be decisive in a battle. Do you realize how pointless it is to keep the FW190 as it is? It’s difficult and I believe you won’t be able to be reasonable with what I’m saying, but I guarantee that whoever operates the FW190 in the game will agree on many points that I brought here.

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About what you said about the performance of the mg151: we cant change the ammo loaded in the belts. While in certain planes you can carry full explosive shells(f4u,p38,ta) in others only part of the belt contains relevant shells to air combat(hisparkos from spits, and the mg151). Maybe custom belts, like the custom bomb payload would help.

Heres a link that corroborates to the custom belt thing that seems like it was common:

(Dá um add lá pra brincarmos cm esse bixo dps)

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Exactly! The file you uploaded here serves two reasons, one of which is to show that the 50 caliber machine guns weren’t that devastating, even with a 1 second burst, the operator had to turn back and fire closer to finally destroy the 109. And the other reason is to show that pilots would hardly be so dexterous in hitting a fighter at distances greater than 600 meters, efficiently to the point of tearing it apart. Another important detail that occurs in the game is that one of the advantages of German aircraft, both in real life and in the game, is precisely being able to maintain a favorable distance from the enemy to the point that they do not need such a high turn rate, but a lot of power. to bypass the enemy from afar (this is described by real pilots in easily accessible television documentaries), but what does Gaijim impose in these cases to make it ineffective in the game? Simply make the .50 machine guns hit you from afar and knock you down with 1 short burst, setting you on fire or simply tearing you apart. It is more than evident that the game mode is unbalanced and very unrealistic. Ridiculous for a game that features a mode called “simulator”.

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No need to be patronizing. It is my 4th most played plane in Simulator Battles, and from the looks of things I do better with it than you do.

The players who maintain high KD ratios in Fw-190 do it by playing with massive altitude advantage, sticking to pure BnZ tactic, and run to their nearest friendly AA source at first sign of trouble. They usually are not very mechanically skilled.

It is extremely arrogant to call yourself a master. Sure you are above average but I have flown against you. You are nowhere near mastering the FW190 or any other plane for that matter. Your main tactic seems to be “go up and pray the other guy doesn’t hit me while I am stalling” from what I have seen.

Yet you cannot actually prove that there is anything wrong with the FW-190 flight models. In fact there are assertions that you have made that are completely untrue in your own thread. The flight model for the FW190D has not changed for quite some time; probably around 2 years. The flight model for the FW190A was changed with the introduction with the FW190A5/U14 and was made more stable which also made its handling much worse. The most recent change to the A-models is also now they have a shorter period of time on WEP after someone made a bug report.

Why didn’t the Israeli Spitfire see combat during World War 2? I wonder why. Thankfully nobody knows. The S-199…it is a Post-War airplane so it should fight other Post-War airplanes…is that the logic here?

The Israeli premium Spitfire is identical to the tech tree LF IX. Weizmans real Spitfire was actually used by the British during World War II and is still flying today.

This change was available for players to read. None of the FM changes are hidden.

image

The 190D has not been changed any time in the recent past to my knowledge.