Why did Gaijin rank the FW190 D-13 plane in such a high battle ranking for Simulation Battles? (5.3-SB) I recently acquired the Dora 13 package from the German tree, it is a formidable aircraft, but it is NOT equivalent to allied aircraft such as: Spitfire LF Mk.IXe Weizman’s (5.0-SB), F4U-4 (5.3-SB), YAK-9U (5.3-SB), YAK-3U (6.0-SB) and others. Especially the Dora13, it is in a COMPLETELY disadvantageous Simulation Battles ranking in all aspects and configurations for the player and for the aircraft. Dora13 has no significant features to explain why the gaijin ranked him so high. The Dora13 has a reasonable armament for this B.R (3x20mm MG151), a LOWER climb rate than most fighters of this level, a BAD turn rate (present in all FW190s), does NOT have a good configuration for ground attack (1x 500kg bomb or 4x 100kg bombs), in addition to having a practically ineffective armament to destroy medium and heavy tanks and irrelevant to destroy bases and airfields . Therefore, the rabkings presented to fly the FW190 D13 in simulation battles, brings much superior opponents such as the Spitfires, YAKs and F4U mentioned above, making it impossible to escape from an enemy that is with one of these planes, it only becomes viable if the opposing pilot has a very low energy or distracted, since any strategy to reverse some aggression becomes unfeasible, whether trying to run or make evasive maneuvers. Since the F4U and Spitfire are both tier 5.3 and 5.0, and are indeed superior aircraft in all respects, then I would like to understand why the Dora 13 is rated 5.3? a reasonable ranking for this aircraft would be a maximum of 4.7, which is where the FW190 A5 and derivatives are also erroneously located. I cannot understand at all what criteria Gaijin is using to make the German tree so disadvantaged, as many of these planes fought in the beginning and middle of the actual battles, and here they are facing fighters that came later. How can you fight an FW190 A5 and D13 (4.7-5.3) against a Spitfire Premium (5.0), with an overwhelming climb rate? Fix it Gaijin, it’s time for you to consider reviewing the Rankings of ALL FW190’s.
the real Dora 13 was supposed to be a fighter-bomber for the Luftwaffe. the D-13 is often wrongly called an (anti-bomber) interceptor. those were D-9 and D-12.
I could imagine that the D-13 will eventually be lowered to 5.0. I would also find that better.
in general I have to say that I find the power of the Focke Wulf Dora series in War Thunder too weak.
I remember that the engines of the Doras in the sim IL-2 had noticeably more power.
There’s nothing wrong with German aircraft BR’s, in fact compared to some nations they get it quite easy. It’s only EC4 where Germany gets some competition from nations other than the U.S.
Your main issue isn’t German B.R’s but American ones. The F4U4’s are problems because of their highly suspect FM and because for whatever reason pilots love to try and turnfight them. Take them on in the vertical but beware that they can helicopter up almost like a K-4.
In regards to the D-13 vs the Russians you should absolutely decimate them. I’ve been flying for the Rooskies these last couple of nights and above 15kft they lose a fair bit of power… I personally find it makes them miserable to fly as if you play against anyone that is smart they’ll sit up there and BnZ you to oblivion. There’s very little my (albeit unspaded at the moment) Yak-3U can do against your D-13 up there.
You shouldn’t be asking for the D-13’s B.R to be lowered but the F4U4’s BR to be raised.
I must agree with you. It was lacking a little practice to fly with the D13. I was very used to flying the FW190 A4 and A5 but the experience with the D13 is very different. I confess that the spitfires ended up being very easy to kill, and the YAK’s just fight with them at long distances and save energy, that BnZ and HnR are easy strategies to take them down. But the F4U-4 still haven’t managed to have a satisfactory dogfight against them, they climb much faster, turn more effectively and hit you even though you are almost 1km away. Not to mention its rate of fire, which is absurd compared to the FW. If I could rephrase my question, I would suggest increasing the BR of the F4U4. the problem is that in simulation battles the 5.3 ranking sometimes faces up to the 6.3 ranking, so I believe that 5.3 and 5.7 for these planes are still high.
I really thought that the efficiency of the FW190 D is really compromised in WarThunder. Historical reports from pilots and scholars always say that the FW190 Dora was a very fast and agile fighter, and that not even the mustangs that guarded the Allied bombers could chase them. What we see in WarThunder is something surreal, even P47’s that were ground attack fighters, can fly almost equivalently against a FW190-D12 and D13 and some fly faster than the D9. I’m no expert, but I believe that the FW190 was far superior in speed and “race” performance than the P47 Thubderbolt. It is clear that Gaijin disfavors Germany. History shows us that since 1942 when the FW’s 190 A, appeared in the English Channel and massacred a bunch of spirfires, Germany was investing heavily in Kurt Tank’s project, making the FW190 both “A” and “D”, become the deadliest fighter of the war, surpassing even the BF109 in kill rate. Hard to believe that planes like the F4U were a match for an FW190. But Gaijin insists on making German planes inferior to Allied ones.
The problem is that IRL the were flying at very high altitude, and in WT there is nobody that high normally. The Dora was designed to be better than the Anton at high altitudes.
BTW, the P-47 IRL was also a beast at high altitudes, despite being a fighter-bomber … this one and the dora seemed to excel only when his turbo-compressor made a difference.
Beside that, yes, the D-13 seems a little meh at 5.3, i think it should be 5.0
this topic Fw 190 vs. allied fighters fills whole books.
you have to consider that the game changes from update to update. some time ago the Fw 190 flight models were “corrected” (as Gaijin always says). but that was probably 3 years ago.
it is possible that the Focke Wulfs will be “corrected” in the next update or the one after that again.
by the way, I find the P-38 in War Thunder too weak. in IL-2 the P-38J goes off like a rocket!
yes Camel agrees.
the german Luftwaffe said:
"Fw D = Abfangjäger für große Höhen um die schwache Höhenleistung der A-Serie zu kompensieren"
= High altitude interceptor to compensate for the poor high altitude performance of the A series.
German aircraft were great… but allied aircraft were just as good or better in some regards. The 190A butchered Mk V Spitfires as they will do in game if flown correctly. However just as in reality the F MK IX counters the 190A perfectly… the 190A wasn’t superior any more. Then you also have the early P-51’s which were every bit as fast if not faster on the deck than the 190A and the P-47’s you mentioned earlier would butcher a 190A at higher altitudes.
Then you have the Dora vs Griffon Spitfires, Tempest, P-51D (I’d say equal to Dora) and in game the F4U4 rocket ship etc etc… Not saying the Dora is hopeless in these fights far from it in fact but in my opinion the 190 series never had the superiority in performance similar to when the Anton first came on the scene.
You are absolutely correct, historically when England introduced the Spitfire IX, Germany had many FW190A and ME109 F and E casualties, therefore the Spitfire IX and later versions are equivalent and superior to the FW190A, both at high and low altitudes. But I refer to the history of the progress of the FW190 in the Dora versions, mainly the D13 and D9 that were exceptional in speed and engine thrust. You fall to play with any of these aircraft and you are faced with P47’s flying faster than you, accelerating faster, and even the P51, which manage to escape you easily at medium altitudes. The performance of the ME109 G6 and G10 itself surpasses the FW190D in speed, which in my opinion makes no sense. the FW190D being a fighter designated at speeds greater than the vast majority of fighters of the time. I didn’t even get into the question of the MG151 guns being extremely inaccurate and damaging the enemy like any .50 would. It is evident that the gaijin is opposed to Germany and brings that into the game.
Exactly what you say. Powerful aircraft with a long history of operation, such as the p38 itself, and the FW190 are easily overcome in the game. The flight model of all aircraft should be reviewed, especially the F4U, a fighter with a radial engine, with compromised aerodynamics, it would be difficult to outrun fighters with an aerodynamic design and an equivalent engine. This game is less and less faithful, gaijin introduces aircraft from the end of the war to fight against fighters from 1942. Airplanes like Yak3 practically participated in 1 or 2 significant battles and even occupied relevant space in some theater of war. But Gaijin loves to show how “good” Soviets were… Joke!
yes these are all planes that were originally created in WT for AB and RB. there are really too many discrepancies. for example I had to completely change the controls for Spitfires and Mustangs. this is of course annoying because I then have to load them extra every time I want to fly these planes. but these are simply too heavy in the rear.
I would like to see WT sim as a template for a new flight sim. without AB and RB, without Silverlions and with less planes. but these planes then really correctly represented. in more authentic scenarios. best without Russia as a playable nation. only as an AI enemy. :)
Indeed, the gaijin could eliminate many planes from WWII. Some of them that are available to participate in sinulation battles were mere prototypes, and some were so scarce that virtually no one saw them in the skies during the war. Two examples of this are the DO-335 and the XP-55. Another totally meaningless thing is to introduce “hijacked” aircraft to compete. You choose to play for the Axis, and expect to face a battle between BF`s VS Spitfires, FW190’s VS P51’s, A6M VS F4U’s, or something like that, but it is very frequent to find 40% of the opposing team or even more, with “hijacked” planes ". Ki61’s for US, P47’s for Germans, BF’s for French and American… WT is becoming a mess, practically every nation has BF’s109 available… premium planes should be exclusive to each corresponding nation. The focus should be on the fidelity of flight models and historical battles, but even in simulation mode we have 1944 planes facing 1942 planes, being the same in the same B.R. As I mentioned earlier… Imagine fighting on maps like Maginot Line using F4U’s 4, or fighting in a theater that even existed in that period, WT is a very good game, but this discrepancy between the BR’s and the disadvantage of Germany, which is overrated in WT, makes the game tiresome.
I agree 100%
and Sim needs its own “Sim techtree”
It makes no sense because you are wrong. The Fw-190D-9 is faster than the G-6 and G-10.
It’s actually not evident at all and is only the delusional fantasy of people who almost exclusively main one nation.
Germany by-and-large gets their fighter planes in their ideal configuration with the maximum performance possible that they might have had. A perfect example is the Bf.109 K-4 running on 1.98 ATA which is basically an experimental engine setting that may or may not have been used in combat. The same can be said about the Bf.109 G-6 being modeled as later G-6 model where it is functionally the same plane as the G-14 at a lower battle rating.
This isn’t to say America suffers… because every nation has some aircraft that are always strong for their battle rating range. But the P-51 D-5 runs an engine power setting that is lower than what it would have used operationally; the Mustang that runs 72" of manifold pressure is a premium that only comes up for sale once per year.
If some allied aircraft received some of the same leniency that German aircraft do there would be some absolute monsters out there. Imagine if the P-38L received 2000hp per engine instead of its current 1550hp. Or any of the absolutely insane boost settings the British used for P-51s to chase down V-1 flying bombs.
You are distorting my comment. I am not talking about the configurations of the planes being wrong, but about the B.R to which they are assigned and the flight details such as drag, precision, efficiency, etc… The question here is: Putting aircraft that almost did not see combat to fight aircraft that were present in many theaters and were relevant in the conflict? The example of the F4U-4 corsair, which historically fought in the Pacific, and only saw combat against Japanese forces at the end of the war. Another example is the YAK-3, which operated only from the middle to the end of 1944, much more relevant aircraft such as the Mustang, Spitfires, P38, FW’s, P40, and some others, which strongly participated in the conflict and were the backbones of their armies, are outnumbered by prototypes and by aircraft that had few or no appearances in the conflicts. If you propose a SIMULATION game, then even discrepancies must be taken as real. You talk about the P38 with 2000 horsepower, but you forget to mention several improvements that many planes went through at the time. The turbo compressor of the TA152H, for example, used Nitrogen for better performance in some configurations, the MG151 guns are extremely weak to be compared with the reports of the time, which unanimously had the German armament of the aircraft as something devastating. Tireless 4x20mm bursts often had little effect on the enemy. These are details in the gameplay that do not match reality. The engines of the FW190s from the A1 version, even the A5 are overheating extremely quickly, the drag of the FW190 D (all versions) is ridiculously much higher than most planes it faces. on several occasions I made a boom n zoom attack at over 700km/h and when I climbed to gain altitude I was easily reached by the enemy who was at a lower altitude and lower speed, and the tactic most used by the pilots of this fighter was precisely this, if that plausible, it would never have happened in reality. the opponent needs to be at least half your speed for this to be effective, in dives at 800 km/h I am reached by most of the aircraft that fight in the same BR. That is, the German tactics that were used do not work at all against the designation of the majority of aircraft that fight the FW in the game. The F4U4 is a plane that doesn’t matter at what altitude you are, if you miss the dive and don’t hit the target, it can catch you very quickly, and even if it has less energy it hits you even at stol speed. these are very incompatible things…
The game is a simulation of air combat. It is not a simulation of World War II. Whether or not something faced each other in real life is completely irrelevant.
This is already modeled in the game. The Ta-152H that is modeled in-game is effectively the best version of the plane that could have existed.
I agree with you. Mg.151 is relatively weak compared to other 20mm in the game.
And yet some players complain that mg.151 are overperforming and cite historical sources / pictures.
If you have any sources then go make a bug report. However to my knowledge the 190s were changed because someone made a bug report and showed something to the effect that their WEP time limitations were not modeled correctly in game.
Boom and Zoom is not only a German tactic and getting hit while in the zoom climb is the exact same thing that can happen to most American planes when they make the same kind of attacks against German or Japanese planes.
Indeed, in the test version, the FW showed overheating due to the “aerodynamic” fairing that involved the radial engine, and the heating was transmitted to the cockpit, since the design of the test aircraft made the cabin very close to the engine, the engine heated up (as is to be expected in any engine) and the pilot felt the excessive heat inside the cabin, in the Anton 1, 2 and 3 versions this fairing was removed, and the cabin was mounted further back. It was from the A4 version that a small fairing was adopted around the engine, but that did not compromise cooling. So much so that any information about radial engines in aviation, they all show that the oil and air cooling system is sometimes better than the water system the disadvantage of this engine is exclusive of excessive drag and oil consumption. What gaijin is doing with FW is completely purposeful and without engagement.
Another detail that I am raising here, it is not about the wrong configuration of the aircraft as it actually matches the historical documents, the big problem raised here is about the simulation battles and the opponents who are using superior aircraft in practically everything. The FW was never a specialist aircraft, when it was developed the purpose was always to bring an aircraft that was easy to pilot, simple to manufacture and versatile. And that could replace the ME109. On the battlefield, the FW proved to be an extremely feared aircraft, its main characteristics were its superior speed compared to other fighters, its armament, its strong structure and the advantage of a powerful engine that had a very high acceleration rate. 1 year ago more or less, between the B.Rs 3.3 and 4.7 the FW was an extremely competitive plane, on several occasions I even thought that they could add the B.R because it was very easy to be in first or second place in the matches many times without suffering no defeat. for a few months now, the FW has become a terrible aircraft, easy to shoot down, and with terrible energy stock. I don’t know if you play with the FW but if you ever played, you can see the huge difference that the flight model suffered. I’m not overestimating the FW, because it was never an undefeated or much superior aircraft, but many flight characteristics are wrong. You see, the Yakovlev’s, were excellent fighters in maneuverability, but had a difficult piloting, only for the pilot to accelerate and decelerate, the pilot would have to operate 5 levers, almost as if they were truck gears, having levers for reduced gears and others for speed gears, this huge YAK decant is not passed on to the game. The FW in turn had electrical systems and operated a single lever to perform the same function, so honestly, it could bring a thousand information here, but it is not convenient, I just hope that Gaijin portrays this huge disadvantage that it has been bringing.
You brought up another detail here, about BnZ not being the only tactic used, but I never said it was. Months ago the FW was extremely competitive in dogfights. I used different strategies for each opponent, for example, low BRs where I faced Spitfires up to their MK V version, when I came across him, I used a little steep climb rate and gained more altitude than him, until I could return and attack, another example are with P51 and fast planes, where he tried to impose a low-energy dogfight, and then used the FW acceleration to reverse the game, in addition to several defensive maneuvers that were effective and today are totally unfeasible. The FW is becoming much more difficult to play than it already was, an aircraft with a low rate of turn, reasonable rate of climb, now with an engine that overheats and with enormous drag that does not let the plane have an energy advantage over the opponents … What to do with such an aircraft on the battlefield? only attack bombers, and even head-on with them because the MG151 takes time to shoot down… this situation is ridiculous.