[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[silenceikeelu]

@SidewaysCube946

An AMRAAM fired at 0.85 Mach at low altitude is NOT the same as an AMRAAM fired from 1.25 Mach at high altitude.

It is though. They both can be dodged by getting low and/or notching. The same way a Phoenix at 12.3 can be dodged. It’s not like players at 12.0 don’t know how to dodge radar missiles, they have to deal with F-14s in every game even before the event.

@SidewaysCube946

You seem like the kind of person to say the ICE is defenseless against 13.7 planes no? But you think an ICE vs the F-104S.ASA would be fair huh?

No, I don’t seem like the type I am the type. That is literally what I am saying. In a sheer dogfight, no missiles, the F-104 could at least keep its speed and speed away while the F-4 turns. The F-4 has nothing on a 4th Gen fighter. 4th gens turn better, accelerate harder, and have similar if not higher top speeds.

Not to mention that the F-104 player gets the benefit of moving on from the plane for bigger and better things. The F-4F ICE is the end of the line and the only option for Germany to experience Fox-3 gameplay. If there was a different top tier with AMRAAMs I really wouldn’t care, but that is not the reality we live in nor will it be until the Eurofighter is added.

The F-104 is a bad example anyway. It’s not like the F-104 you are referring to has a fun time without needing to deal with the ICE.

@SidewaysCube946

That’s a compression problem, decompress up, not compress down.

You are right it is a compression problem, but it’s not like compression is an issue Gaijin is keen on solving. It took them forever to do a “mass” decompression like the one we saw a few updates ago and even that “fix” was like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

@SidewaysCube946

Take your brain dead Iranian F-14 tomcat players and be greatful

I thought I was going to be and I would, except that a slight up-tier is much more common than a full-down tier. Therefore, it gets a fun game in maybe 1 out of 10 matches. Could that change as more people unlock the plane? Sure, but then what happens when the brain-dead players realize they suck at the brain-dead tomcat gameplay and drop the game or go play a different plane?

If the only way a plane is fun/playable is in a down-tier, then something needs to be done. Since I don’t see Gaijin doing another decompression attempt anytime soon, the only thing that can be done is changing BRs; not just for this plane, but other vehicles that are in a BR nightmare too.

[SidewaysCube946-live]

@silenceikeelu

It is though. They both can be dodged by getting low and/or notching. The same way a Phoenix at 12.3 can be dodged

But one will be coming at you from a weird angle and very much faster, they have very different characteristics and one fired from the ICE is harder to dodge.

The phoenix is a bad example because it is a slow, 17G missile that 90% of the time won’t hit 17Gs. The phoenix can also be defeated by turning around for 2 seconds and than turning back.

@silenceikeelu

Not to mention that the F-104 player gets the benefit of moving on from the plane for bigger and better things

From AIM-9Ls at 12.0 to AIM-9Ls at 13.0 ;)

@silenceikeelu

what happens when the brain-dead players realize they suck at the brain-dead tomcat gameplay

Fat chance maverick drops his baby lmao.

@silenceikeelu

If the only way a plane is fun/playable is in a down-tier,

All games are at the bare minimum a minor down tier in the ICE, if you get into a 13.7 match there is a good chance you will see 12.7 planes. I don’t wanna sound pretentious here and I’m sure you’re a very good player but I think you have to play it like the M4K when it gets up tiered. You have to use terrain, stay low, stay with teammates and take cheap shots at distracted people whenever you can.

Moving the ICE to 13.0 would create even more compression issues than there already is, it would insinuate the F-16ADF or Mirage 4000 is equal to the ICE, I’m going to be frank with you it isn’t. 4 IRCCM missiles and 4 AMRAAMs is a 13.3 kit unless you put it on a prop plane.

I’m glad you acknowledged it is a compression problem which can be solved by moving obviously superior planes up (I’m looking at you F-15C) to 14.3 or 14.7 even. The players may not trust gaijin to try it again but for the sake of hard to balance planes like the ICE it is necessary.

[hunter4574761]

@Emperororca

there are exceptions to the rule based on avionics.

Can you elaborate more on this rules? I have a feeling that they don’t consider avionics when determining BR

Because Russian radar system is in all aspect inferior to their western counter parts. As can be shown here

[Emperororca]

To my knowledge, most top aircraft BRs are not balanced around theirnown BR, but rather to not crush lower tiers (see F4F ICE and Tornado ADV L only 0.3 lower than F-15C MSIP) and as Russian missiles can be carried im such high amounts (10 on SU-27) they are placed at a higher tier than feels balanced when playing them.

[N_Lanternshark]

How is the top BR in naval RB still only 7.0? Its by far the most compressed game mode.

“But no one plays it, you don’t want queue times to be longer, do you?”

I’m pretty sure the compression is one of the main reasons no one plays it…

How is an Ashville(or pretty much any 3.3) suppose to deal with the SKR-7?

How does a Maxim Gorky (or pretty much any 5.7) deal with a Wyoming?

On a slightly different note yet still the same topic -

Nearly all players that use the Scharnhorst, Prinz Eugen, SKR-7, Jaguar, Brantford, and PG-02 have absurd KD ratios, but their BRs are never raised. I thought gaijin used “stats” to determine BRs?

[silenceikeelu]

@SidewaysCube946

All games are at the bare minimum a minor down tier in the ICE, if you get into a 13.7 match there is a good chance you will see 12.7 planes

And those 12.7 aircraft are still infinitely better aircraft in performance, they just have poo poo armaments.

@SidewaysCube946

4 IRCCM missiles and 4 AMRAAMs is a 13.3 kit unless you put it on a prop plane.

You can’t put a rating on a kit if the Mig-21 Bison is going to exist. That thing gets to sit pretty at 12.3 with 2 IRCCM missiles, 2 of the best SARH missiles in the game, AND a HMS.

This is an issue that needs to be addressed in some way. I would like to see things moved for a temporary solution (things like this plane and others like the F-4C are in an unplayable position), but there really needs to be another attempt at decompression gamewide, not just for air.

I know we’ve only been talking about air because that is what my original post was about, but things get even worse when you start to look at ground balance. All the new, top-dog tanks that are being added are just getting slapped at 11.7 even though some are clearly better than others (i.e. the Leopard 2A7HU). It makes playing 10.7-11.3 unbearable. Even once you make it to 11.7, depending on your country you still aren’t even out of the woods because more likely that not your 11.7 is still just going to get dogged on by the more elite 11.7 tanks.

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

can we please fix me 262 a1a jabo and a regular having to fight mig 15 and f86 a5 me262 c2b haveing to fight 9.0s is a pain to

[SidewaysCube946-live]

That’s a weird way if spelling gaijin needs to decompress but yeah pretty much

[silenceikeelu]

At the end of the day, I really don’t care about the F-4F ICE. If I want to play top tier, I can just go play a different nation. It just sucks for players that don’t have that option. I would also at least like to spade the thing, but I don’t even want to touch it because of the spot it is in.

[SidewaysCube946-live]

13.3 is kind of gaijins excuse for planes they don’t want to put effort into balancing, same with 11.3 ground. They say “just below top tier is fine” when it is certainly not.

[Ion_492]

The F-84B and F-84G should both be uptiered, or have their airspawn removed. Giving some of the fastest planes for their Brs airspawns is an awful idea, and they make playing anything at that BR a pain. They also are able to climb higher than everything else because of them.

They make playing 6.0-8.0 infuriating since you just can’t counter them 90% of the time.

[AnonFlame]

The 76mm variant is 6.3, he is talking about the 75 jumbo.

[Creastroy]

Need more attention to Luftwaffe br and performance
and more WW2 attackers and bombers br difference in ARB and GRB

[AHnenerbe_Vril]

Make matchmaking based on year and month. Every tank before the set match date can be used. anything above it can not.

Then make sure only the correct countries group with each other and spawn on the correct side of the historical map. add a date of the battle there and it set’s the stage for some cool historical gameplay. This is way better and more fun than the current bs that is RB. I think it’s actually fun to face things stronger than me. You could balance this by for example giving the team with weaker tanks a few more players.

[Ion_492]

That would be good as an event (I’m fairly sure that’s what they did with World War mode, but I could be wrong).

However, that shouldn’t be added for regular RB since it won’t be fun for the people in worse tanks. There’s also situations where post-war tanks are on par with WWII tanks, like many Swedish and French tanks.

[Remo_80]

Sorry Gaijin Map Design Department, but you can’t punish players for this crappy map design in high tier (BR9+) when they leave the map.
The player can only ban 1 out of 50 maps and at least half of them are crap.
The maps that are still halfway decent are also ruined by you.
You also want to make money by sabotaging your own product. Good, keep it up, your competition never sleeps and money that I might normally have invested in this game, I have invested in better games like many other players over the last few months.
This is just one of those crappy cards as an example.
For aircraft the playing area is about 30km² and ground vehicles get 0.5km², wtf, what kind of logic is that?

[山_田_凉]

@N_Lanternshark

How is the top BR in naval RB still only 7.0? Its by far the most compressed game mode.

“But no one plays it, you don’t want queue times to be longer, do you?”

I’m pretty sure the compression is one of the main reasons no one plays it…

Decompression of naval would undoubtedly make things worse. Queue times would be impossible long; most people who don’t play naval already don’t because of other reasons than compression. Such as Gaijin’s poor design of naval modes (especially for high tier), gameplay being slower-paced, or just because naval does not have the modern technology (unlike ground or air) that is so propagandized and famous in mass media. Decompression is not the solution at all, and I do not for see it becoming a solution until the naval playerbase increases to multiple times its current size.

[Jarms]

British RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, A1E1 Independent: 1.3 down to 1.0. Terrible armour for a heavy tank, worse than many nations light tanks even at 1.0. Terrible mobility. Massive target. 3-Pdr gun isn’t a redeeming factor either, it’s not the worst gun in the game, but due to all the other factors combined it’s made much worse.

- RB, SARC IVa: 1.3 down to 1.0. It’s fast, and that’s kinda it. If you compare it to the Daimler it shares a BR with, it loses in almost every respect. Worse armour, no shoulder stabiliser, gun is incredibly bouncy and kicks like a mule after firing, worse gun elevation and depression angles, and it’s open-topped.

- RB, Churchill Mk. I: 3.3 down to 3.0. The 2-Pdr is horrendous at this point, mainly due to the lack of mobility to flank. Even taking it in downtiers it struggles to penetrate Pz. IV F2’s with add-on track armour, Pz. III M’s, M4A1’s, T-34’s, etc.

- RB, Crusader AA Mk II: 4.0 down to 3.7. I don’t understand why this vehicle even went up. Just compare it to the Wirbelwind, far less rate-of-fire, less penetration, and half the guns. The only advantage the Crusader AA Mk. II has is an enclosed turret and more mobility. The 2 were very asymmetrically balanced.

- RB, Churchill Mk. III: 4.0 down to 3.7. Less mobility than the Churchill Mk. I, same hull armour, and worse turret armour (only 3.5 inches compared to 4 inches). The gun is better, but that’s it. It’s also the same gun that’s on the AEC Mk. II at 3.0.

- RB, Churchill NA75: 4.3 down to 4.0. It’s more of a side-grade over the Churchill Mk. III, not a direct upgrade. You lose the good rate-of-fire, lose the shoulder stabiliser, and lose a decent amount of penetration for a better damaging shell. That’s the only difference, the shell is good but if the Churchill Mk. III goes down then the NA75 should as well.

- RB, Comet: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s really a shadow of its former self. The A30 Challenger is a better vehicle in almost everyway. Just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, AC IV: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s just a better Firefly. Again, just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, Skink: 5.3 down to 4.7. Just like the Crusader AA Mk. II really don’t understand why it keeps going up. Again, just compare it to the Wirbelwind, you still have less firepower and penetration but now have the double the guns of the Crusader AA Mk. II, and the same amount of guns as the Whirbelwind. Is that really worth a BR increase of 1.3 currently (4.0 to 5.3)?

- RB, Tortoise: 6.7 down to 6.3. Just compare it to the T28, very similar vehicles except the Tortoise is covered in weakspots, lacks APHE, and just as slow.

- RB, Falcon: 8.3 down to 7.7. Just remove the APDS and/or adjust the belts. There’s now 3 British SPAA’s at 8.3 now, what’s the point? The Falcon has no radar and should be lower. Just compare it to the ZSU-37-2 and the VEAK 40 which have similar shells and radar, yet both are 7.7.

- RB, Chieftain Mk 3: 8.7 down to 8.3. The Chieftain Mk 5 has far better mobility and top speed, and sometime soon will get a LRF. This makes the Chieftain Mk 3 feel more like a heavy tank in comparison but only with decent armour when hull down.

Swedish RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SAV 20.12.48: 3.7 to 4.0. This vehicle is a monster. Not much else to be said really.

Soviet RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SU-122: 2.7 to 3.0. This, and the two vehicles below are incredibly powerful. Especially against new players. You see entire squads of SU-122, M4A3 (105), and StuH 42 G when playing these BR’s.

US RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Again, low tier monster. Armour might as well be a Jumbo in a 2.0 uptier.

German RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, StuH 42 G: 3.0 to 3.3. Same story as the SU-122 and M4A3 (105).

French RB BR changes:

- RB, AMD.35 (SA35): 1.7 to 1.0. This thing is trash. It’s basically a side-grade to the 1.0 AMD 35.
- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Same reasons as above mentioned SU-122, StuH 42 G, and US M4A3 (105).

Italian RB BR changes:

- RB, M15/42: 2.7 to 2.3. It’s really not a massive jump from the M13/40 (II), M13/40 (III), or M14/41. Very small jump in penetration, small jump in top speed and power-to-weight, and better hull armour. That’s pretty much it.

[Ion_492]

@Jarms

- AC IV: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s just a better Firefly. Again, just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

Either that, or give it APDS.

All other changes are quite good, and I agree with them.

[Jarms]

Or maybe the VK 3002 (M) could go up to 5.3 so the comparison can’t be made.