[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

Game Discussion General Discussion
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540

Sorry Gaijin Map Design Department, but you can’t punish players for this crappy map design in high tier (BR9+) when they leave the map.
The player can only ban 1 out of 50 maps and at least half of them are crap.
The maps that are still halfway decent are also ruined by you.
You also want to make money by sabotaging your own product. Good, keep it up, your competition never sleeps and money that I might normally have invested in this game, I have invested in better games like many other players over the last few months.
This is just one of those crappy cards as an example.
For aircraft the playing area is about 30km² and ground vehicles get 0.5km², wtf, what kind of logic is that?

Bullshit Mapdesign

8 Likes
541

Decompression of naval would undoubtedly make things worse. Queue times would be impossible long; most people who don’t play naval already don’t because of other reasons than compression. Such as Gaijin’s poor design of naval modes (especially for high tier), gameplay being slower-paced, or just because naval does not have the modern technology (unlike ground or air) that is so propagandized and famous in mass media. Decompression is not the solution at all, and I do not for see it becoming a solution until the naval playerbase increases to multiple times its current size.

542

British RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, A1E1 Independent: 1.3 down to 1.0. Terrible armour for a heavy tank, worse than many nations light tanks even at 1.0. Terrible mobility. Massive target. 3-Pdr gun isn’t a redeeming factor either, it’s not the worst gun in the game, but due to all the other factors combined it’s made much worse.

- RB, SARC IVa: 1.3 down to 1.0. It’s fast, and that’s kinda it. If you compare it to the Daimler it shares a BR with, it loses in almost every respect. Worse armour, no shoulder stabiliser, gun is incredibly bouncy and kicks like a mule after firing, worse gun elevation and depression angles, and it’s open-topped.

- RB, Churchill Mk. I: 3.3 down to 3.0. The 2-Pdr is horrendous at this point, mainly due to the lack of mobility to flank. Even taking it in downtiers it struggles to penetrate Pz. IV F2’s with add-on track armour, Pz. III M’s, M4A1’s, T-34’s, etc.

- RB, Crusader AA Mk II: 4.0 down to 3.7. I don’t understand why this vehicle even went up. Just compare it to the Wirbelwind, far less rate-of-fire, less penetration, and half the guns. The only advantage the Crusader AA Mk. II has is an enclosed turret and more mobility. The 2 were very asymmetrically balanced.

- RB, Churchill Mk. III: 4.0 down to 3.7. Less mobility than the Churchill Mk. I, same hull armour, and worse turret armour (only 3.5 inches compared to 4 inches). The gun is better, but that’s it. It’s also the same gun that’s on the AEC Mk. II at 3.0.

- RB, Churchill NA75: 4.3 down to 4.0. It’s more of a side-grade over the Churchill Mk. III, not a direct upgrade. You lose the good rate-of-fire, lose the shoulder stabiliser, and lose a decent amount of penetration for a better damaging shell. That’s the only difference, the shell is good but if the Churchill Mk. III goes down then the NA75 should as well.

- RB, Comet: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s really a shadow of its former self. The A30 Challenger is a better vehicle in almost everyway. Just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, AC IV: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s just a better Firefly. Again, just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, Skink: 5.3 down to 4.7. Just like the Crusader AA Mk. II really don’t understand why it keeps going up. Again, just compare it to the Wirbelwind, you still have less firepower and penetration but now have the double the guns of the Crusader AA Mk. II, and the same amount of guns as the Whirbelwind. Is that really worth a BR increase of 1.3 currently (4.0 to 5.3)?

- RB, Tortoise: 6.7 down to 6.3. Just compare it to the T28, very similar vehicles except the Tortoise is covered in weakspots, lacks APHE, and just as slow.

- RB, Falcon: 8.3 down to 7.7. Just remove the APDS and/or adjust the belts. There’s now 3 British SPAA’s at 8.3 now, what’s the point? The Falcon has no radar and should be lower. Just compare it to the ZSU-37-2 and the VEAK 40 which have similar shells and radar, yet both are 7.7.

- RB, Chieftain Mk 3: 8.7 down to 8.3. The Chieftain Mk 5 has far better mobility and top speed, and sometime soon will get a LRF. This makes the Chieftain Mk 3 feel more like a heavy tank in comparison but only with decent armour when hull down.

Swedish RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SAV 20.12.48: 3.7 to 4.0. This vehicle is a monster. Not much else to be said really.

Soviet RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SU-122: 2.7 to 3.0. This, and the two vehicles below are incredibly powerful. Especially against new players. You see entire squads of SU-122, M4A3 (105), and StuH 42 G when playing these BR’s.

US RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Again, low tier monster. Armour might as well be a Jumbo in a 2.0 uptier.

German RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, StuH 42 G: 3.0 to 3.3. Same story as the SU-122 and M4A3 (105).

French RB BR changes:

- RB, AMD.35 (SA35): 1.7 to 1.0. This thing is trash. It’s basically a side-grade to the 1.0 AMD 35.
- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Same reasons as above mentioned SU-122, StuH 42 G, and US M4A3 (105).

Italian RB BR changes:

- RB, M15/42: 2.7 to 2.3. It’s really not a massive jump from the M13/40 (II), M13/40 (III), or M14/41. Very small jump in penetration, small jump in top speed and power-to-weight, and better hull armour. That’s pretty much it.

4 Likes
543

Either that, or give it APDS.

All other changes are quite good, and I agree with them.

544

Or maybe the VK 3002 (M) could go up to 5.3 so the comparison can’t be made.

1 Like
545

Yup, all good suggestions. I’d also add to remove the damn AP rounds from the 45mm armed YAKs as they’re currently broken AF.

546

Or give it HEAT, APDS and HE-VT and move up to ~6.7 or higher.

2 Likes
547

I agree with most of this except I think the M15/42 could go even lower lol what the hell is it doing

1 Like
548

All J21 prop variants (AB)

5.3 → 4.0 or 3.7

These aircraft are painful. While I am a decent enough pilot to do alright in them, they have piss-poor speed and energy retention for their BR, and their tail gets sliced off far too often.

J22-B (AB)

4.0 → 3.0

Why is this thing at the BR it is at? Its slow, with poor energy retention- and the only upgrade it gets over the -A is two more 13.2s.

J-22A (AB):

3.0 → Maybe 2.7

This one I am less sure about, but it should be fine.

Mörko-Moraine (AB)

2.3 → 2.7

Need I say more? Its the Morko.

549

you have got to be kidding !!! lollollololloooolllloolllopol00llopl0ol American bias ! the only American bias is anti-American bias. take any BR and add a full uptier and my entire lineup becomes almost useless. 3.0 can’t do anything against 4.0 Russians. 4.0 Americans can’t even hurt all the 5.0 KV’s running around. the same at 5.0,6.0 8.0 9.0 won’t even mention the top tier. The weak spot on the Russian tanks is so small that from a little distance, you can’t even see it. playing a lot of American tanks so many times I’ve SHOT Russuon tank 2 and even 3 times with 0 effect only to be killed by the very tank that I shot mutable times and it should have been dead. No ,there is no American bias .

550

VK3002 has to be the most useless and homeless vehicle in Warthunder at 5BR .It is on its own.Too weak for 6BR and never gets down tiered.

Just too many homeless useless vehicles in this game.

551

That is true for many lineups in many nations.

There are 2 5.0 Kvs. One of them is a German one, and the other is an overtiered Finnish one.

I think you need to aim better. American aircraft dominate the skies in air RB and GRB, while also having decent lineups to back them up.

2 Likes
552

At least USA has a good line up at 5BR. Germany has one tank,two if you include a premium. I can’t see much reason for having 5BR with so few vehicles in it.

That is what you get when you forget about the game and use statistics to determine how things should be. Does anybody who works on this game even play it?

553

Reduce the multipath alt to 80m as a middle ground. Making top tier ARB less of a spamfest.

Reduce the BR of the F104S and ASA, those are horrible after the FM nerf. They were barely playable prenerf.

1 Like
554

The matchmaking used to be bad for a long time. About 3 months ago, it went to horrible. To the point, I dont bother to try to win. I get the required kills or crits to achieve a BattlePass level, then I stop. All the while, I let the game free repair my vehicles overnight. No point to use my SL due to an imbalanced matchmaking.

Makes one wonder if this were an XBox game, would anyone buy it after the massive criticisms?

2 Likes
555

7.0 to 6.7 is rough America and Germany have been getting extremely lucky with 80% of my games in strike master being uptiers

556

yeah except for the entirety of the air… the USA is the #1 nation in air overall from rank 1-8

557

When is anybody going to start making the noise needed to change the MiG-15/17 and F-86 BRs back to what they were? It is ridiculous that these far superior jets are at BRs lower than worse jets in every minor nation AND they are compressing the hell out of the game.

6 Likes
558

They shouldn’t have been moved down in the first place, especially since they were the best performing planes at their BRs. Now it is very common to be playing the Me-262 and be facing them, alongside the F-84s which seem pretty OP with their airspawn.

All of this can be blamed on the F5C and the A10. They forced the 9.X gunfighters down, which forced the MiGs/Sabres down. Now a Mig-15 and F-86 is equivalent to a Vampire.

3 Likes
559

British RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, A1E1 Independent: 1.3 down to 1.0. Terrible armour for a heavy tank, worse than many nations light tanks even at 1.0. Terrible mobility. Massive target. 3-Pdr gun isn’t a redeeming factor either, it’s not the worst gun in the game, but due to all the other factors combined it’s made much worse. It’s still not going to be an amazing tank at BR 1.0, but people might actually buy it more. So there’s incentive for you to drop it too.

- RB, SARC IVa: 1.3 down to 1.0. It’s fast, and that’s kind of it. If you compare it to the Daimler it shares a BR with, it loses in almost every respect. Worse armour, no shoulder stabiliser, gun is incredibly bouncy and kicks like a mule after firing, worse gun elevation and depression angles, and it’s open-topped. Even comparing it to the Tetrarch it does poorly against, with much of the same issues as the Daimler.

- RB, Churchill Mk. I: 3.3 down to 3.0. The 2-Pdr is horrendous at this point, mainly due to the lack of mobility to flank. Even taking it in full downtiers it struggles to penetrate Pz. III M’s, M4A1’s, T-34’s, etc. Just look at protection analysis.

- RB, Sherman II: 3.7 down to 3.3. Just get rid of the APCR and drop it down to 3.3 with the rest of the M4A1’s in-game. It doesn’t need to be artificially increased in BR due to a round it never received. Dropping it down to 3.3 also means you can add the Sherman V as a tech-tree vehicle at 3.7 and even a 3.7 premium with a pair of RP-3 rockets.

- RB, Crusader AA Mk II: 4.0 down to 3.7. I don’t understand why this vehicle even went up. Just compare it to the Wirbelwind, far less rate-of-fire, less penetration, and half the guns. The only advantage the Crusader AA Mk. II has is an enclosed turret and more mobility. The 2 were very asymmetrically balanced.

- RB, Churchill Mk. III: 4.0 down to 3.7. Less mobility than the Churchill Mk. I, same hull armour, and worse turret armour (only 3.5 inches compared to 4 inches). The gun is better, but that’s it. It’s also the same gun that’s on the AEC Mk. II at 3.0. It’s also the wrong gun, see my bug report, it should be a 6-Pdr Mk III which is even more justification for a drop in BR.

- RB, Churchill NA75: 4.3 down to 4.0. It’s more of a side-grade over the Churchill Mk. III, not a direct upgrade. You lose the good rate-of-fire, lose the shoulder stabiliser, and lose a decent amount of penetration for a better damaging shell. That’s the only difference, the shell is good but if the Churchill Mk. III goes down then the NA75 should as well.

- RB, Comet: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s really a shadow of its former self. The A30 Challenger is a better vehicle in almost everyway. Just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, AC IV: 5.3 down to 5.0. It’s just a better Firefly. Again, just compare it to the VK 3002 (M).

- RB, Skink: 5.3 down to 4.7. Just like the Crusader AA Mk. II really don’t understand why it keeps going up. Again, just compare it to the Wirbelwind, you still have less firepower and penetration but now have the double the guns of the Crusader AA Mk. II, and the same amount of guns as the Whirbelwind. Is that really worth a BR increase of 1.3 currently (4.0 to 5.3)? The Bosvark is a far better SPAA at 5.3.

- RB, Tortoise: 6.7 down to 6.3. Just compare it to the T28, very similar vehicles except the Tortoise is covered in weakspots, lacks APHE, and just as slow. If you add the missing APDS round then it can stay at 6.7.

- RB, Centurion Mk 3: 7.7 down to 7.3. It’s been power creeped by new additions and previous BR adjustments. Just compare it to the Centurion Mk 5/1 which has far better armour and secondary weapons, the Caernarvon which has a better front plate, and then the Conqueror which has amazing armour especially with the add-on armour module. At 7.3 the Centurion Mk 3 can make a line up with the FV4202 which it compares well against. This also opens up an opportunity to add a new Centurion 7/1 or 8/1 as a new 7.7 vehicle, with the other being a new premium.

- RB, Falcon: 8.3 down to 7.7. Just remove the APDS and/or adjust the belts. There’s now 3 British SPAA’s at 8.3 now, what’s the point? The Falcon has no radar and should be lower. Just compare it to the ZSU-37-2 and the VEAK 40 which have similar shells and radar, yet both are 7.7. If the APDS is removed it will have worse penetration than both of the above mentioned vehicles.

- Chieftain Mk 3: 8.7 to 8.3. This one is going to be controversial but just compare it to the Conqueror. The Chieftain’s armour is worse in many ways, the mobility isn’t much of an improvement, and only the firepower is better but not drastically. The only massive improvement is the reload which is 50% shorter. I don’t believe these differences are worth a 1.0 BR increase over the Conqueror.

- Chieftain Mk 10: 9.0 to 9.3. Remove L15A3 as the stock round and replace it with L15A5. Remove the fake L23 round and replace it with the correct L23A1, this bug report has been outstanding for like 4 years. Add a tier IV modification to turn the vehicle into a Mk 11 with TOGS, it’s a very minor visual change swapping the IR light box for a TOGS box. This also adds the potential for a new Mk 5/4 to be added at 9.0, you lose the stillbrew of the Mk 10 and the .50 ranging gun of the Mk 5 but gain L15A5 as a stock round and L23A1 as the top round.

Khalid: 9.3 to 9.0. This thing is just a faster Mk 5 and definitely not worth a 0.7 BR increase, especially when the Mk 5 missing LRF bug report is actioned. It should also get L15A5 as a top round. It would compare quite well against a new Mk 5/4 suggested above, this offers far more power-to-weight and speed, while the Mk 5/4 has better firepower.

Swedish RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SAV 20.12.48: 3.7 to 4.0. This vehicle is a monster. Not much else to be said really.

Soviet RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, SU-122: 2.7 to 3.0. This, and the two vehicles below are incredibly powerful. Especially against new players. You see entire squads of SU-122, M4A3 (105), and StuH 42 G when playing these BR’s.

US RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Again, low tier monster. Armour might as well be a Jumbo in a 2.0 uptier.

German RB Ground BR’s:

- RB, StuH 42 G: 3.0 to 3.3. Same story as the SU-122 and M4A3 (105).

French RB BR changes:

- RB, AMD.35 (SA35): 1.7 to 1.0. This thing is trash. It’s basically a side-grade to the 1.0 AMD 35.

- RB, M4A3 (105): 3.0 to 3.3. Same reasons as above mentioned SU-122, StuH 42 G, and US M4A3 (105). Moving all these vehicles up would improve the new player experience drastically.

Italian RB BR changes:

- RB, M15/42: 2.7 to 2.3. It’s really not a massive jump from the M13/40 (II), M13/40 (III), or M14/41. Very small jump in penetration, small jump in top speed and power-to-weight, and better hull armour. That’s pretty much it.

2 Likes