Sounds like skill issue tbh.
IS-7 would be technically WWII too.
Also, good luck facing Obj 279s with centurions and M48s…
Do you know how many open tops/lights are at it’s BR now?!
HEAT literally does not overpen.
At that BR, most tanks are smaller, and more tightly packed, compared to later tanks that are bigger with more space and/or more crew.
Where did i say they are the same? Quote the exact line!
No. You just lack basic comprehension skills.
I don’t fully understand this.
Why? People like playing it.
There’s no real reason to do so.
What other vehicle is equal to the Maus? An APHE round with 312mm of max penetration, a 75mm gun with 100mm of pen, no less than 160mm of amor at the thinnest point, angled armor everywhere except the sides. No vehicle is equal to that. The Maus’s APHE round has more penetration than 9.0 tank’s APDS and APFSDS and has explosive filler so it will one shot anything where APDS/APFSDS won’t. The IS-7 doesn’t have as much armor. The Maus has better protection against the Milan ATGM (7.7 Marder A1) than 9.0 MBTs. The only thing any of those 9.0 vehicles have compared to the Maus is mobility and they are smaller. Name one vehicle that is an equal to the Maus, just one.
Oh boy.
The Maus has only armor against full calibre rounds. And not even against all. A T-10M, IS-7, Obj 279 can easily pen the Maus with APHE.
Sure buddy, sure.
Not better protection. Better survivability, if you are lucky. If not, then you will just get ammoracked.
I hate these threads.
Someone lays out a really good idea. Then people come up with these nonsensical straw men arguments. “This is only wanted so heavy tanks are invincible”.
The counter argument usually comes to balance. Which there isn’t any for the people who play these vehicles and get uptiered into tanks that they are consistently outclassed by.
The tanks of each era were designed to compete with new design and doctrine. WW II tanks did not have the mobility and technology as a tank in early Vietnam (yes I know many nations had lingering stocks of old weapons platforms). The point is technology advanced and there is clear lines in the sand.
The game was fun before we got to modern tanks… There were heavies back then. That was fun. It over time got less fun in the name of “balance”.
I’d love to see this split. I think this is a great idea. Having two “top tiers” as someone mentioned (ironically) would actually be a great idea. Two eras which can be enjoyed. Hell I think it would be fun to see a third era introduces with slow and heavy land ships.
Bracketed realism. Before anyone tries to counter this, the War Thunder commercials advertise the realizm so don’t get me started on your garbage argument that it’s not that game. Era realistic battles would be awesome.
How would you implement this?
Can you at least give us some ideas about some actual implementations? Like what tanks could go against what, and things like that.
This is stretching reality. IS-7 is similarly armored.
in what reality? flat pen doesnt matter nearly anywhere near as much as angled.
There is no real reason to half of what Gaijin does
How is this relevant to this comment chain?
As I said just a simply cut the game in two. Stop the game at 6-7 BR and recommence it from 7 to top.
You would lose most of that era /cannon/meta conflict we have currenty.
We would till have to injure the Italian lineup filler and the hideous SA rubbish for the UK but it be good for tanks around 6-3 /6/7 not having to face 7.7
This whole thread is about Gaijin trying to make its failed and crummy BR system work. At least two divisions is a start. Maybe subdivide it further later.
12 years of peddling the same faulted game and idiots think that by saying "it’s always been like that " will make it better.
That’s what I was saying if I’m understanding you right.
You are looking for reason, there is no reason. No reason for a half filled Israeli line up ,no reason to make WW2 tanks face 80s ,no reason to put the Maus in the line up then remove it then put it back.
It is just the mindless crap we have to face ,no reason.
You can suck it up or complain about it, your choice.
We can ignore the OP and say there is no issue or address the OP. I agree with the OP.
There was an issue of immersion but we have gone beyond that and now we have an issue where many heavy tanks just don’t play nicely with fast later stuff.
There are some areas where history plays out in the game and even USSR abandoned big heavy tanks for small, fast and well gunned for a reason. That reason is apparent in the game now more than ever. We now have a feeling in game that the big heavy tanks are simply obsolete in the post war game as they were in reality.
Yea sounds like skill issue how did i not see this before ? Is that really an argument ?
The sturer emil is mega broken at its br,the archer is meh but its too much of a gun for such a br and the stug4 with the 75mm L70 is pretty ok where it is.Yes its strong but its not absurd.If youre not on perfectly flat ground people can kill you or disable you easily.
IS7 would be ww2 but it would only be fighting mauses,t28s etc etc.While it is very strong it would have a harder time there than fighting cold war vehicles with 0 armor that it can kill either with its coaxials or its APHE.Obj279 are even rarer than m48s but when i faced them with my early cold war vehicles its was pretty ok.Just shoot the gun and its done.
Yes i know how many there are because i play that br almost all the time.Do you know how many cold war vehicles tanks,ifvs,lights have paper thin armor ?
HEAT or HEATFS may not overpen but doesnt kill in one shot unless the vehicle is open top overpressurable.Otherwise you just damage stuff in a cone or straight line and thats it.But thats missing my point
You said it was the worst after APCR which is not that far from saying its the same for me.Yea technically you didnt say that but it does it matter ? Youre implying that its just as bad which is not true whatsoever
Yea buddy whatever you say
The M51 is penetrating tigers and ISes like theyre nothing.Those tanks rely on their armor to work.The negatives of the M51 are its wobly gun and bad chassis.Other than that its pretty ok and due to that should be in the alternative cold war br i mention or in general not face the vehicles it faces
The mauses capabilities are usually overoveroverexagerated.I have 2300 battles on it alone and it was my favorite vehicle in the past.You know what it took for me to die ? A broken track or 2 broken tracks.Good luck turning it to get the gun on target.Instead of that people that didnt know the vehicle shot the gun mantlet or the cheecks when i was angled and then i returned fire and they died.When people broke my tracks.I wouldnt be able to repair them in time cause i would always have to turn so that i could be in a good angle and i would end up dying while getting flanked by everyone and their cousin.Other than that i almost always died to flanks and thats why apart from planes it was my no1 fear.Because turning to face the flanker would mean me losing my angling and probably dying to the few people trying to peak me.
I know its not what you say but i wanted to make a few point regarding the maus
You’re ignoring the wide variety of tanks that cannot pen the IS-4M frontally. Namely, just about everything without access to HEAT. Which conincidentally is a list of all the tanks that would be left to fight it under your proposed system.
And, unlike the KV-1 or IS-1, the IS-4M has no consistent frontal weakspots that allow weaker guns to go through. The closest it has is the driver’s port, which can allow some very high performance AP through if unangled. Removing HEATFS from it’s BR bracket doesn’t make it equivalent to the KV or early IS series, it makes it borderline unkillable.
Go ahead and use protection analysis to see how protected the IS-4M is against the T34, and vice versa, then try and tell me that’s a fair and balanced engagement. In fact, go ahead and use protection analysis to tell me what non-HEATFS firing tanks can actually deal with the IS-4M, which would be left to counter it under your proposed system.
Now assume that the IS-4M’s team has equivalent levels of backup and support. Enough that you cannot freely swarm them and push them. What then? Track them in place over and over again? Smoke their position up for the rest of the game? These aren’t solutions to the problem, just a delaying tactic.
This also requires a level of team coordination that is very rare to see in randoms. I’ve seen triple Maus squads completly roll over entire teams in a downtier, even when most of them had ways to penetrate the Mauses. And you want to remove most of those tools, and hope that the playerbase can deal with it?
If you haven’t played a tank, you don’t know the tank. You don’t understand the nuances, the weaknesses, the things it gives up in order to give players the advantages you see. I thought the Foch was going to be great until I had to deal with it’s gun handling myself. I though the S tanks were unbelievably OP until I dealt with hull aiming, and learned that all APFSDS and most HEAT can easily cut it’s way through the armor even at a perfect angle and range. Until you’ve actually taken the time to learn the tank yourself, you cannot make judgement calls based merely on how it appears to be in the hands of others.
Again, this system renders dozens of completely innocuous Cold War tanks at the earlier tiers into absolute irrelevance. It would also be vastly more complicated than you think. Say, what tier would these reserve tanks be? On the one hand, you have tanks like the T-54s, the Pattons, the Leopard 1. And on the other, the AMX-13, the STA-1, the Bulldogs, the ARL-44s and the Strv 74. You’d have to have each reserve lineup start at a different tier, massively complicating MM (Early Cold War would be a wasteland).
It would also flood the game at these tiers with a mass influx of unskilled players, and putting them into some very popular BR brackets, with vehicles that are very unforgiving, against vehicles with stabilizers, LRFs and more. Say what you want about the current reserve tier, at least it’s somewhat fairly balanced, and starts people off with generally pretty forgiving vehicles.
Those ARE well placed shots. HEATFS can pen just about anywhere, but since the damage is so condensed (especially for sub-105mm shells) you need to place your shots with care to ensure that you actually hit something important. For instance, if you take 90mm HEAT and fire it center mass at a Tiger II, it’s entirely possible to do nothing more than killing the driver and the loader, leaving him free to return fire and kill you. Aiming at the side from long distance and hit too low? You only take out his transmission. Hit too high on the hull side, and it’s possible to do no damage whatsoever.
Try those same side shots with APHE, and odds are no matter where you place it you’re killing or crippling that Tiger II.
Unironic skill issue here. Some are small, but nowhere near ASU or L3 size, good spatial awareness and map knowledge allows me to spot and deal with them easily. Most of the really small ones can just be MG’d to death, even with coaxial .30 cals.
In other words, you overextended. You put yourself into a position where you could be flanked, or rushed, without your teammates being in a position to screen for you or cover you. Yes, it’s particularly vulneable to mispositioning due to it’s incredibly slow speed, but your failures at positioning are not an argument on the overall effectiveness of the Maus.
Also, when they track you, why do you not track them in return? You have a rapidly reloading 75mm HEAT slinger that’s ideal for tracking targets (It’s what I primarily use it for), and it’s barrel it too small to be consistently broken. The first thing I do when I’m disabled in the Maus is use the 75mm to disable however disabled me in return, giving me the oppertunity to repair without fear of being rushed.
I’m sorry, is someone standing behind you with a gun to your head, forcing you to play slow, armored tanks in full uptiers? The whole point of building lineups in this game it to fill it with a variety of different tanks that all excel in different areas. You bring snipers for when you get a long ranged map, you bring fast tanks for maps that allow for flanking, you bring armored tanks when you get a brawling focused one.
The same holds true for uptiers. You bring tanks that rely on their armor into downtiers, and you bring fast, high penning tanks for uptiers. Bringing a Tiger II into a 7.7 game, or an IS-4M into an 8.7 game, is analogous to bringing a Nashorn into Advance to the Rhine. Yeah, you can make it work if you really bend over backwards, but you’re doing yourself no favors, and you’re not allowing your tank to perform at it’s best. Mandating sweeping changes because you’re trying to force tanks into situations they cannot consistently perform well in is insane.
Yes. It is a fact, that mostly bad players want such things like the ones you want. You think that HEAT is a strong shell, just because you look at their penetration, and completly ignore the fact, that penetration by itself is meaningless.
It’s not. It is huge, has no armor, open top, horribly slow with awful gun traverse, and only 15 shells and long reload.
If it were mega broken, then it would make up the majority of german teams. Yet it does not, because it is not a good tank.
It’s only issue is the gun facing backwards.
It is not a Stug4 with L70…
I made those examples against your argument, that there is nothing that can just tear a KV-1 apart. Those can, and they are not the only ones.
Excuse me?!
Literally NOTHING would be able to pen it! You would struggle to pen it with your Maus from the side if it is angled a bit.
it has ~2x more rate of fire with better shells, 2 14.5mm HMG, that is as effective as the Maus’ 75mm, or even better, since those can be used against CAS, and even to shoot over cover.
It is also stupidly fast for the armor it has.
And it also absolutely humiliates a Maus. (even the T-10M can do that, which is factually worse than an IS-7)
The IS-7 faces a lot of darts/HEAT, that can pen it, so you can’t just yolo with it like a headless chicken.
In a WWII scenario however? USSR would have way over 90% win rate.
You failed again. Every tank can be overpressured. Light tanks, even the non open top ones will usually get overpressured by most HEAT rounds. But things, like the Conqueror can be overpressured by some HEAT shells, if it hits right above the driver’s hatch, since it is only 16mm. And that is a “heavy tank”.
You just need to learn where to shoot.
For you. but it does not mean it. APCR is the worst, but HEAT is the next.
It matters, because i did not say, what you lied that i allegedly said.
You lie again. If “it is just as bad”, then it means that they are the same. Stop lying dude.
And so do IS’ and Tigers to the M-51. The difference is, that in most cases, the M-51 return to the respawn window, while those heavies spend a bit on repair and continue to fight.
It is rare for an M-51 to 1shot, and usually only the good players can go it. When i played it, i could do it, but it was just horrible to play. I rater use a 76mm Jumbo in a full uptier than that garbage M-51.
And you can still use those tanks. The fact, that you can not use them, just confirms your skill issue.
It would be literally useless in that scenario.
There is nothing that can upper plate it, not even the 279.
The only part it can be somewhat reliably penned is the driver’s port, and even then, you need a very strong round. Even the long 88 can only pen it in a small point.
Compared that to the IS-1, which does not really have an impressive armor, so yeah.
Even the KV-1 is different. It also has the driver’s port as a weak spot, but, every gun that pens that, will also pen the turret. Not true for the IS-4.
In a WWII scenarion, the only reliable counter against an IS-4 would be howitzers.
Just look at sweden.
This thing would fight T-54s!
I find it far more challenging to not be able to penetrate something easily it pushes me to think harder and play better.I uptier the panzer 3 M to 5.3-5.7 just for the sake of fighting harder opponents.If someone takes out the IS4s gun and its truck what is it going to do ? Sherman players track and degun tiger 1s and panthers day and night why cant a panther,or comet,a pershing etc etc do the same ?
Yea sure the T34 is not the greatest but it can take a shot from the IS4 once in a while,it gun take out the T34s gun and then its tracks with its .50s and possibly flank and kill it.Again no need for HEATFS.
I have never seen a maus team work long term.Ive seen squads playing them but that only got that far.If they spread the vehicles types used per player then the chances of success is far higher.In a downtier ? Again questionable in this game since downtiers mean swarms of p47d players and spitfires that basically kill the entire enemy team or most it and then its almost game over.But if all goes well then you may get a good game in a downtier but ive very very rarely stomped the enemy team.Most kills i get in the maus are when all my team is dead and everyone tries to focus on me.If i stay alive for long enough i reach up to 7-8 kills max ive gone is 12 or 13.But youre basically a piniata and you lose the moment they stop shooting you like some sort of stormtroopers and decide to flank or push cause the 128 is by no means rapid firing.
I would much rather smoke the is4 day and night and have to hit a weakspot while he does the same than lolpen him.Far more enjoyable and requires that i use my brain to win the fight.
Yea i dont know a tank thats true but i can fairly reliably guess how it will work.When i played Italy and France i knew almost exactly just by looking at their stats what to expect and what not.Yes some things were not fully expected but what im getting at is that i can fairly accurately guess what a vehicles capabilities are.Especially if i see someone use it.At this point i can feel how a vehicle will play just by looking at others.Ive been playing for 7 years man like give me a break.
Its not a perfect system but i think its a good start.I believe we can find for most nations some early cold war equivalent and move up till modern times.Yes there will be weak nations but the same is true for the current game.Im not proposing a magic bullet.
Mate you know how many people buy a premium leopard or abrams and just jump to top tier ? What difference does it make if they play a reserve t54 in the scenario where this is implemented ? I understand what youre getting at but i think they will be ok
HEAT and HEATFS is definitely not a do it all shell.Its a high pen shell that requires less aiming in certain spots.When i play the Italian P43 i carry 25 APHE and 15-20 HEAT.The APHE is for side shots and the HEAT is for anything im shooting frontally that isnt penable by the APHE (which is more than half the tech tree).But with that tradeoff i get a reliable penetrating power at all distances if i can reliably connect a shot,an overpressure on anything light and a pretty good pen.That HIGH pen capability though is enough to render useless a pre cold war and a cold war one(talking about HEATFS not the P43) if you shoot at the right place and thats true from any distance and for extreme angles most of the times.While an APHE can one shot you it falls short at anything that is well angled,at range and it rarely overpressures lights that have infested this game.Also that tiger 2 sideshot will equally get eaten by its transmision,get absorbed by the sideskirts,explode and only kill 2-3 crew members or yellow them if its not well placed.So APHE is not magic as well.
Its not a skill issue mate.I can see them a lot of times but how am i supposed to hit them with the reaction times of a snail that ww2 vehicles have ? Kill the rakjagdpanzer with only its missile sticking out at 500 missiles with the Pershing or the m56 scorpion that is all bushed up that is hidding on point C on Poland with the tiger 2 when youre trying to cap B.Its simply very hard doable but 7/10 gets you killed.An m18,a puma,an am13 without the missiles will have to be far more exposed.Cold war vehicles had a whole another mentality behind them.
I rarely manage to exit the first 200m from the spawn before getting shot at :D Even when i do go beyond that i rarely overextend.Flanks kill you in the maus.Youre very very slow to react and half your gameplay must be preplanned if you wish to survive based on your knowledge of the equivalent map.The maus is very fast to retreat and i have managed to get away from tricky situations with ease but a broken truck a lot of times means death no matter how you play it.I mean yea sure if you want to play full camper mode it works but i stopped doing that cause it got too boring plus i rarely won and i rarely contributed anything.
O i track them in return.But the maus rarely faces 1 opponent.Usually 3-4 people shoot you plus you have to sway the turret to hide the weakspot so counter tracking is not guaranteed without losing gunner and commander and that can be done that many times.The 75 is amazing and ive managed very very rarely to kill stuff i never should have killed hahahahaha.But as i said its rarely 1 enemy.
I have mastered this tank more than anything in this game.I have become one with it.I made the maus crew ace just by RP point alone.You can only get that good before you hit the ceiling called cold war technology.After that you either camp till the timer is over or you try to somewhat play because by no means can that be called playing the game.
