The issue is, the planes just aren’t very good and extremely niche in “what they can do”. And even in that niche, they do have competition rather than excelling at them. GJN decided to really screw them.
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Well, my attempts to explain my thinking on the unique strengths of german props in these type of discussions haven’t been successful. Seems like those advantages only become apparent if you have certain specific knowledge on how to utilize them and play around them.
Best short version I can think of right now is - German props offer the best experience when you play around securing initiative, dictating the rules of engagement and giving you a good chance to secure a quick kill once you commit. The trade off is it’s very all or nothing playstyle - if you fumble your attack or make a wrong decision, it’s gonna be hard to recover from
One example to illustrate my point:
D-13 - because of its roll rate, indestructible take off flaps, high speed maneuverability, energy retention and dive performance, and resistance to compression, there is no other plane that feels as comfortable to aim and blow up a target in a dive. It just goes where you tell it too, no problem, and a just few shells on target is enough for a kill. And you can still go into vertical loops if it’s safe, without sacrificing too much energy
Most other planes start fighting you like a rodeo bull at 600khps, especially if you need to roll, and I just hate it so much.
or in case of p47s and some f4u , you can roll and adjust your aim, but . 50 cals need more time on target, and once you’re past your target you need to go a long way away before it’s safe to start shallow climbing. Vertical loops are a big no-no
I don’t play RB; I do custom 1v1 servers. Also, it’s quite sad that you instantly go to a third-party service to try to start stuff be normal lol
When you make such sweeping generalizations and accusations, you better have something to back them up. You don’t, in fact it’s the opposite.
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I mean ill 1v1 ya if thats good enough lol
Also since you used statshark for me i used it for you
Dear god you only have 6 games in the 190 in air rb and you main arcade ground for your own sake i hope its just statshark bugging
If those stats are true you have no base to even try to talk here
I’d say the 109s are pretty cool. The issue is that in RB you pretty much need Mouse Aim to be competetive, and that means very bad instructor limits that significantly hamper your instantenous and sustained turn. Granted, in exchange you don’t need to deal with the fact that 109s are paper light with an engine that wants to kill the pilot if you are mean to it (it loves to drop a wing when you play with the throttle or pull a bit too hard without compensating)
This thread contrasting my sim experience with 109s (they’re kinda my favoured aircraft besides italy for red team these days) makes me feel much of those issues may boil down to the entirely different turn performance.
People should petition gaijin to give a standardized instructor limit. 90% or 80% of critical AoA.
109F4 is… 12.0/17.1 = 70.18% of the critical AOA available with mouse aim. Last I checked, that’s 2 deg/s of sustained turn rate alone and a pretty significant cap on instantaneous too. In sim, 109F4 can ratefight a Yak-3 and win flat turning on the deck with each meter making it easier. In RB it loses.
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So I recently played some Bf109 G-6 matches to get a direct feel for their perspective in ARB (I personally think the majority of German props are middling to bad) and I was immediately surprised by the lack of elevator authority. I thought my plane was bugged with how slow the nose moved around during maneuvers at non-compression speeds. The closest comparison that I can think of is maneuvering in the -4 Corsairs around ~600IAS. This is on top of its other disadvantages such as poor roll rate, bad thermals, mediocre firepower, poor high speed control etc. The Bf109 obviously does have its advantages as mentioned previously in the thread but it often gets superseded in these areas by other planes.
Admittedly, I also had some skill issue moments owing to my lack of 109 experience but this has only further validated my view of the Bf 109s mediocrity from playing against it.
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I’ve seen a guy who basically started from almost equal energy vs Lf Mk IX, and after like 10s of maneuvers was above him and on the offensive.
LF has great climb, but it also overheats super badly even with MEC. And on top of that, if LF maneuvers, it bleeds a lot more speed than Yak. The only real advantage Yak player had was the fact LF did not starr anywhere close to firing solution. When it was - he had to lead Yak in an upward turn, which was never going to happen.
It’s basically the same thing in Ta-152H vs Mk XVIII, except Ta has to start at some advantage, because while it can maintain that advantage, it has damn big problem accelerating.
Anyway, thing is, Yak-3U can just out-energy Spitfire, but if it starts with Spit fairly close to getting shots, it’s gg. Same with Re.2005 - if it pushes head-on while you dodge in the merge, you’re likely in trouble. My go to tactic in such case is extend and climb above him, as Yak has like 9m/s advantage at lower alt.
And regarding Bf 109 K4 - as long as Ta-152H retains its extremely fun (though likely unrealistic) flight model, I’m not touching that. Ta-152H can bullsnail its way out of some really nasty situations. K4 lacks this “just let me dogfight, bro” factor.
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And G6 is actually considered the good one. At least that’s how I feel about it. But it’s not like there’s a lot to choose from at 4.7 :(
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Yeah from playing both sides of the matchup the Yak-3U definitely has the advantage but the LF mk9 has enough power to basically go fuck you I’m pulling in for this shot and recover very quickly which makes the fight quite irritating.
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109’s can be fun. Out-turns a lot of things, climbs well, armament is decent (with training it’s easy pilots and engine snipes). Energy retention isn’t too bad either. My only problem with them is that the smallest of shots can shred you. As for the 190’s, I agree they’re very frustrating to use. Turning is horrible (which is one of the main things, if not THE thing, in dogfights). Engine, armament and roll rate seem to be the only things going for them. Even the guns seem to have horrible velocity (although maybe it’s from inexperience in aiming them). Anyways, that’s speaking from my experience, can be different for others.
That’s why you play Fw 190 like an absolute tool and just fly straight and go for head-ons then extend, or BnZ.
The real fun in Fw 190 line is Ta-152H, though Spitfire Mk XVIII and LF Mk IX along with Yak-3U and P-51H can bully you in certain situations.
I have found that G.56 gets obliterated in sustained turnfight, so my go-to is “just turn bruh”. J6K1 is also perfectly killable. I have an issue with Ki-84 and N1K as I have honestly no real plan for both. With N1K I just try to go fast, he either compresses or my ace crew (I have way over 1000 sorties in Ta) means he blacks out while I don’t. But seriously, I have no real decent dogfighting tactics vs these 2.
But the point is - this plane is fun.
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To the contrary, I think you’ve done a wonderful job illustrating your thinking and conveying your passion for the 109 family and the 190s. We just have a different opinion.
I am fully in agreement that the 109/190 is excellent from a position of advantage where it can dictate the engagement. Their climb rate often allows them to secure early position. Of course, we must admit this is not unique to the 109 or 190!
Our experience and perception diverge on the 190 - to me, the D-13 feels absolutely terrible to fly at speed. Yes, the 190 retains control authority at speed, but it just isn’t that maneuverable to start with. As a Mustang and Thunderbolt pilot, it consistently fails to meet my expectations for performance at high speed.
@mechanocs - I think you’re being a little too hard on the Bf 109 G-6. The G-6 is easily managed with MEC and the guns are notably punchier than the G-2/F-4. I don’t think it’s a bad plane @ BR 4.7. However, it is VERY niche when flown with mouse aim in ARB… and you need to really love that niche to enjoy it. Yes, with the instructor limits it is a bit of a bus. However, many aircraft are nerfed hard by the instructor. The -4 Corsair you mention is probably the most egregious I’ve tested.
That’s basically because MG131 IAI real sh*tter is way better than it has any right to be.
In Fw D9/F8 probably 30-35% of my kills come from MGs. Which is pretty damn ridiculous.
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I just wonder if we can get more 109k, like 109K6/8/14, which has mk103 on its nose
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Nah, the whole MK103 in Bf 109 was made up. That thing would never fit. And the flight performance would be horrible. Better to keep bothering Gaijoob for MK103 APHE. It existed, had big explosive filler and plenty of penetration and Do-335 A0 and A1 sit at very nice BRs :)
Playing bf k4 it was always a tryhard gameplay but now… is just unplayable. get it to 5.3 or buff it OR nerf all UFOs around k4. spit LF, Hornets, Yaks…
Iirc it isnt made up, the problem was that the thick ring and the rod on the barrel didnt fit inbetween the banks, the Mk 103M was specifically developed, as it had a redesignt construction.
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Wow, I thought the whole story of MK103 inside Bf 109 was just some 8 getting smudged up to look like 3. That would be a pretty hilarious plane if the gun was equipped with APHE. Of course not gonna happen.
Well, possibly tested on K-14. Tho even the Mk 108 can get its M-Pzgr. (370g 72g HTA 500m/s SAPHE and SAPHE-T round with some 18mm pen.)
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/HJdLRYXvq2HI
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