Arcade Battle should be changed to pure tank battles

Game Discussion Arcade Battle
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It’s the Game as a Service kind of thing - they are adding things that people will hype about before they realise that are not that useful in first implementation, to gauge the actual amount of players owning and using those vehicles, and if required, they would then, if they have time, fix those. It’s a bad side of F2P/GaaS games, but it is what it is - pushing out stuff that is not useful just for the memes and collectible factor.

It’s not about whether you could - but whether specific types of players would do it or not. Right now you can omit those and go to the top tier without having any problem, but there is incentive to use them to complete the season tasks and challenges.

Now imagine what happens when you never played any SPAA and have to go through all tiers and unlock all SPAAs to get the top tier that you want to use in RB once you have everything else. You spent all the time playing tank-only and now you are faced with situation where all this time you weren’t using SPAA against planes, or even you weren’t grinding them out, so you’re in the top tier where you don’t know how to play SPAA and all you do is complain about the game being crap because of CAS, because SPAA being impossible to use. It’s a friction point in difficulty curve meaning a fraction of players will put down the game in such situation and go play something else.

It is unfair now - yes. With multiple mechanics added to make the conditions more balanced, it will require skill. First thing to do is to make the plane not a free air mission plane that you can YOLO in, then there’s those added smaller mechanics that will make it more skillful and less about just getting close and dropping bomb, or dropping bomb from high altitude with a crosshair. It all can be done, but the starting point is to penalise player for getting killed in the plane by making the plane not free.

Not braindead, but focused on optimizing their grind, they are min-maxing in a sense, trying to spend least time and grind as fast as possible. Attacking whatever you want makes it that way they choose easiest targets instead of the ones that is hard for ground to tackle. If it is controlled, then maybe even getting an easy kill stolen by bomber or strafing strike aircraft with rockets won’t be that often as now.

Yes, that is if he has markers on all vehicles with their corresponding types. Right now fighter planes don’t have markers and it makes harder for them to distinguish targets already, but with naval system and unlimited time, it’ll get back to being easy with unlimited time, potentially. But still, if points will only be given for scouted/marked targets, they will pick those. It can be done, it’s just a lot of minor things that need to happen…

On 1.0 you need event vehicle, so if you’re talking about those, then I guess there’s also those people that are just making new accounts just to give themselves referral gold. On rank II and III with just one vehicle, they could already be doing events/season.

How do you define those sealclubbers? Are those in new accounts or some lvl 100 people?

Not every plane is easy to dive, drop bombs and go back up to safety. Dedicated bombers most likely.

Note that you’re not seeing heavy bombers that much in RB exactly because you have just one plane run most of the time and fighters taking down heavy bomber is easy. Bombing sight is mostly on heavy bombers that are not that agile to run away. Of course people do play them like Pe-8, but I think that’s mostly CCs showing off some unique matches and it’s not that easy to survive when enemy is not already losing.

Exactly - don’t score the kill if the plane crashes to a player that does that. It will reduce amount of players doing this - they will have to survive for the kill to be counted to be able to complete the task with a plane, seasonal challenge or get points.

In RB, in low tiers it’s easy because people don’t know how to effectively use SPAA, because it is hard to do it without lead indicator. Try playing it in naval RB or even in naval AB with the indicator against the big ships and survive while killing multiple big ships. If you’re dropping bombs from high altitude, you’ll miss most of the time, if you get close, you’ll get damaged.

I’m not sure with whom you play mostly, but from my perspective when playing rank 3 - rank 4, mostly the top of the score list players are using the bombers and are doing this effectively. If you think about it - you need 3 kills to get the heavy bomber, so just by doing so it means you already have 1.0 KD in this match before they even use the bombs. And in my matches it’s usually the same 2-3 guys in a match using the bombing runs (like me) so I guess they shouldn’t be 1.0 KD players just being lucky? Unless you’re talking about situation where some guys just luckily have the bombers in one match and they are crap in multiple other matches? That seems like really specific deep dive into all people that you have played with…

Same with disregarding my arguments as BS and rubbish because you know better but have no specific arguments against them…

I don’t even know what(or why?) are you arguing about here? For the right to say that there is no public data? Just so you can say it? Replays are generated for all matches, at least that how it looks like.

Even if the system fails and doesn’t generate a replay from time to time, it still should be representative to data mine for active players in a specific time frame if you were to go there and write the names of each player in your local spreadsheet/database.

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Neither can I. I am left with two options:

A: doesn’t want to admit that the mode is played less frequently.
B: Just doesn’t comprehend what info is available.

In either case, there is no point to continue a discussion.

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Saying that Arcade is the most played game mode because you can datamine replay numbers doesn’t state anything.

Realistic Battles is the main stay game mode of War Thunder. It’s what people play, it’s what the game is balanced around, it’s what makes Gaijin money. Arcade Battles is a sideshow that should be given purpose. That purpose can be to offer a tank only gameplay experience in War Thunder.

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kek
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The topic was clarified quite recently. When making changes to techtrees and folders.

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I would love for Gaijin to release public data so we as a community can form opinions off of it. The word of a community manager is not raw data, it’s their word.

Their word is irrelevant unless raw data is shown.

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Then your word is also irrelevant unless raw data is shown. Until then…

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This sentence doesn’t even make sense - The point is, tank arcade has comparable amount of sessions and players to tank realistic and that’s it, to stop treating it like a lesser mode where players just briefly spend time to learn the game and move on.

It’s not like that for everyone, people just chose what they like and both modes have their fans, but hence RB is presented as mainstream through content creators, the RB community is more vocal, then RB players community is forcing this narrative that the amount of AB players is negligible in the game, which is not and can be proven by the data that can and was already data mined to prove so.

Where is this written? Where is a statement in the game or on the website stating this?

every mode that is played is what people play LOL. Even the enduring confrontation and simulator battles.

Not true - arcade has it’s own BR balance.

Again - each mode that has players spending money does. Even IF arcade was to be just a tutorial that players enter through and spend fixed amount of time before actually be presented with in-game microtransactions, still being essential part of the game would mean it’s a part of money making scheme. You have no idea on how GaaS games work and spouting your opinions as solid facts LOL#2

It has a purpose - for players that don’t want a game that is about surprises and squinting their eyes to see someone in the bushes, but want to know where the enemy is because the crew is a proxy for enemy detection. Or the ones that don’t want to spend 3 minutes driving to the front and sitting to get shot by something that’s barely visible to them and have to do that again for another 3 minutes because realistic vehicles are simply slow and boring to them.

LOL#3

Dude, even if they released raw data - would you actually believe the raw data? How do you verify whether it’s raw and unmodified? You don’t have any means to verify whether that is real or not.

YOU are irrelevant for this discussion unless you prove so, LOL#4

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Arcade Battle should be changed to pure tank battles，There were no planes, no helicopters, only tanks fighting each other。

Yes, it is the OP in the first and third post. The first and third.

If you have issue with the comment MotorolaCRO had issue with just backtrack to find what set him off. The rest is just us going back and forth after him triggered by my general comments. So respectfully exactly what I had been saying.

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It is in hist first comment/third post in general, but not in the opening post. Fair point though.

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This is why I’m not really for changing AB or any other mode for that matter. I bet many people wouldn’t want their mode to go change from the ground up, which is perfectly understandable.
This thread was made by a guy that thinks AB is useless and not played, which are his only reasons to change the dynamics of ABs.
I think TO can be better implemented without “stitching” it in any currently available mode.

This is really easy to fix by introducing “roles” where, I don’t know, only 2-3 people would be able to spawn aircraft first, while others are forced to spawn in a ground unit.

This is why no one is really pushing to make Air modes to be combined arms.
Making TO would be really simple, you already have the maps and vehicles, just ban aircraft from spawning in and job’s done.

Why do you think that would be the case ?
VFW looks like a fairly difficult vehicle to play, it’s pretty big with decent-ish mobility but with godawful gun depression. It’s also open top, so getting slapped with HE round wouldn’t be cool.

Maus can also easily get taken out by ground vehicles at it’s BR, considering 7.7 is filled with HEAT slingers and those things have zero issues dealing with it even from the front.
Also, the recently added M109s will be able to overpressure Maus by hitting it’s turret cheeks with their 155mm HE shell. Yeah, 6.0 / 6.3 TD can OHK a Maus, super heavy tank more than a full BR above them, so I highly doubt Maus would get even close to being OP without aircraft.

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Which new player?

MotorolaCRO is an advanced and very good player. I purely pointed out he did not realise what the topic was concerning, knowing he personally would like a RB TO which was NOT on offer here, the exact opposite in fact. 200 AB was to point that on the subject he has no real reason to be too involved as has almost no experience in it, in the context to his umbrage with my general thought on the subject.

It was sonething out of nothing, from a comment I popped out while bored waiting an hour in a queue for some pills.

But to be open I have no real interest as in 15 days the forum will he locked to me being 3 months after leaving WT. I admit I have no real reason to be commenting on it either, but was always aware AB players also asked for TO options even though most RBTO askers refused to accept this need, which I found irritating since I am pretty sure AB players have similar wants on this subject.

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This is essentially making the game like battlefield or enlisted where either luck or rotation decides whether you can use the vehicle you want. What happens if those 3 people survive whole game? For the whole match other people do not have chance to play the planes. That’s the bad side of battlefield and enlisted that it’s not a game where skill decides that you’ll take out the tank, but luck of loading first to the server and hogging the tank throughout whole game.

It won’t work like this unless there would be a system like in MOBA where you pick a hero from the queue or something like that, but if we have planes that obviously have the advantage over ground units, it’ll still be a problem.

There was a mode in Dota2 that was about remixing heroes by picking abilities in a queue from randomized pool. It made it so that you could have unique ability combinations, but the fact that there had to be some order of picking and people had better or worse combinations, made it so that most of the matches ended after first encounter where people saw they got the loosing stick and were leaving the match.

The same will happen when you’ll keep selecting players to play planes - the ones that get bombed on the spawn will keep leaving the match. Some will keep leaving until they are selected to get the plane if they are supposed to do a plane against the ground unit task.

So no, it’s not easy to fix, it’s not always that an easy change is a valid fix.

While there were still markers for fighters in AB, VFW could only last till first enemy fighters went up and focused the VFW that was scoring most kills. It worked. Now it’s different because they don’t have markers and only skilled pilots will find my VFW. Even if you get slightly grazed, but you’re in the middle of the fight, you’re screwed and enemy tanks will finish you off.

Maus was a bit of a stretch here because that is historically the reason why it didn’t make sens to make super heavy tanks that it would just be bombed. T95 or Tortoise are similar cases that it’ll get focused. Those all are high enough right now that they are facing more modern ammunition, but because of that, to a degree they are useless. And there are vehicles like that they are pushed too high up BR because there is no counter of them on the ground. But effectively it makes them useless and people play them only for memes or to spade them not knowing they won’t get effective. Some of those vehicles could be tiered lower IF the mechanics of CAS would make it so that they would be the primary targets for CAS bombing and not easy soft targets all the time.

VFW and IS-6 are alike, but different. The core point of those vehicles is that they can send a second round before enemy can do critical damage to you. This is something that will let you learn the game. And VFW is best teacher in that because you can send a shot every 4 seconds on maxed-out crew.

Yes, it doesn’t have depression, but if you position yourself properly, it doesn’t matter. Of course there will be maps with hills where it’s useless, but since the game is loving USSR vehicles with similar limited gun depression, it’s not that often and not that big of a problem.

VFW can be easily killed with turret-top MGs if someone is faster than VFW for example when VFW is focusing a bigger threat at the moment. And with HE of course. But most of the players don’t carry HE just in case and don’t prepare their shots to come out at me with HE. Actually there’s like few guys once in awhile that will go out at me in their soviet tanks and shot HE right away.

Still, most of the players don’t know good strategies against unique vehicles like that and are angry that VFW is a cheat machine rather than figuring out how to tackle it. And it may be their fault, but because there are such players, VFW can get quick kills and get plane to kill others regardless of their skill, get back and keep killing noobs, get plane again and again.

Fair point, I missed that, sorry!

Well, it’s gaijin’s divide & conquer strategy to make AB and RB players fight each other about who’s mode is more important. I would recommend to checking out the roadmap for 2024 and maybe coming back IF and when they would actually do something about the planes in GFAB. IMO naval spawn system would be good starting point.

I wonder how many people in those few threads here actually submitted the suggestion to do something about the GFAB planes in the poll for the roadmap…

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Get off your high horse dude, everyone can see your first post in this topic, which goes like:
Go find something else.
If you don’t like a game stop playing it rather thsn ruining it for those that want to play WT.
Game is the game, they hopefully will not cater to all the simps who are not able to play WT for what it is

This looks like you haven’t even tried to give any constructive arguments, and started trolling from the get go with your “why are you demanding changes ? if you have any problems with the game just leave it and shut up already” stuff.
Sentences quoted above could be used in literally any topic as a try to shut down something you personally don’t like.

Read the post again, you’ll hopefully see it this time.

That’s just your narrowminded opinion and there’s simply no “right” way to play the game.
Pilots are already being catered to with their own standalone mode, which means tankers should get the same thing and to the same extent.

Liking the game isn’t black and white in most cases which you somehow fail to understand. You might like the majority of it, but there could still be some things you don’t like about it and want it changed.
As I said above, telling someone to leave if he doesn’t like something defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

Wait, you left WT but are still actively posting on it’s forum ?

Of course they should continue moaning, regardless of what actions they take in game.
It’s like Gaijin keeps pushing OP premiums and instead of moaning about that, people just accept it and some even start playing with it lmao.

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I was more thinking about this one, where you’ll be able to pick your role in the MM so if you want to spawn aircraft first, you will be able to do so, but you’ll might wait a little longer for a match.

I was talking about stopping people from all going in planes as their first spawn, which is really easy to fix.

Other modes could get much improved with this “role” logic as well, for example in Air RB you’ll have games where your team will be formed of nothing else than strike aircrafts going for bases, which is obviously pretty unbalanced.
Gaijin looking indifferent to those problems for so many years is concerning.

It shouldn’t be that hard to find such a big target on really small maps we have in the game.
Also, planes suddenly disappearing wouldn’t make VFW OP, since tanks will still be able to deal with it pretty easily.

I wouldn’t call them useless but specifically really map and playstyle dependent.

I still have to find a ground vehicle that can’t be countered by other ground vehicles at their BR (excluding really low tiers, I don’t play those), so having CAS to do the “dirty” work is simply not needed.

I mean this could apply to every vehicle in the game, not just super heavies. You could significantly lower the BR of higher tier tanks that have all bells and whistles and just use CAS to deal with them, considering tanks would have a really hard time doing that.

I don’t see a common thing between VFW and IS-6, and IS-6 will have one of the worst reloads at it’s BR as well.
Also, I still don’t see how those would suddenly become OP without CAS ?

This works for who knows how many vehicles in the game. If you position yourself properly and do the right things, most vehicles will look OP. But one should ask himself, is that the case because of the vehicle’s performance or is it because of player’s performance ?

You don’t even need to use HE as your first shot, it’s more than enough to learn where to shoot and any round will disable the vehicle’s ability to fight back.
As I said, it’s a really big vehicle with close to no armor, so some parts of it might stick out where you aren’t expecting which is more than enough to get blasted with HE.
I don’t know how many times I fired my AP round in the ground just to reload HE and slap unsuspecting open top with it.

You don’t need much strategy to deal with any open top, VFW included.
If you see you have time and opportunity to load HE and smack it’s face, do it, and if not, shoot to disable.

But I agree with you on that part, some people won’t bother doing three clicks to find where the gunner sits in the X-Ray, thus will struggle against open tops and when using vehicles without APHE sphere of death crutch.

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Then there will be more people wanting to play planes in ground matches than the ones wanting to play tanks, and we’ll either get back to battlefield problem of people hogging the aircraft, or it’ll be random because matchmaker will have to decide and the choice would be just preference, OR there wouldn’t be enough tankers in the queue to play the ground matches. It’s not an acceptable solution from the perspective of developer to change the mode like that, because it’s a risk of killing the mode completely.

Yes, I got that, but then it’s either that there is a limit of how many planes can be alive at once, so other people are waiting, so we’re in battlefield issue here, or there’s a timer and we get more and more planes in the air while having less planes on the ground, so the people who get there later have less ground targets to hit. It’s not a good system.

Whole idea of defining who is the designated pilot is not going to work outside of squadron/clan matches, because it’s never going to be fair to everyone and it will make people keep leaving the game and eventually stop playing completely.

For some reason markers do the difference that now I do survive a lot longer in VFW. Also with good camouflage, a static vehicle in a shadow can be hard to spot from a safe range.

In games where I can survive the VFW for the whole match because I’m not bothered by fighter planes or bombs, I’m scoring way above other players, unless there are similar OP vehicles, like for example when I’m playing with other squadron mates in their VFWs. As long as VFW was my main, I would keep playing VFW as long as possible and would score between 12-17 kills in each match, not always with VFW because I could use bombers, but VFW is faster in killing than a bombing run on a map with shooting galleries. Anyway there is a difference now and it feels slightly easier to play with VFW in arcade.

Yeah, I overstated that, but I think you get what I mean. The advantage of heavy armour is negligible at the BRs those are pushed to.

But you are thinking about laboratory conditions here where all players are experienced ones and can/will do those countering actions. But in public random matches you get players that don’t do this, and effectively you find yourself in a team where just your squad of experienced players is left against whole team of players just because your team got killed too easily. You cannot be always a nanny taking care of every OP vehicle yourself - you can’t always be everywhere.

Yes, essentially making some targets priority for CAS often would effect statistically-driven BRs of those units.

Again - you can shoot another round before the enemy can. VFW because of speed, IS-6 because it bounces a lot. Not 100% sure if that’s still the case, but I remember that IS-6 was a go-to premium to buy to learn the game through arcade like in every squadron I was, exactly because of that - it gives you time to shoot again and correct your shot.
Recently I won my team an RB SQB match in IS-6 thanks to that, once my team has taken care of the planes. It bounces, so you can take your time aiming, while VFW lets you keep sending those rounds again and again. The core principle of having time to aim while the enemy can’t can be used in both.

I think both, because of course you can be bad at playing anything, but like I said before - VFW and other shooting machines are something that is easy to keep killing and learn the perfect shots quickly - it’s a game teaching machine.

That is correct, but again - you’re not playing in a vacuum with just your squadron mates, but there’s a whole team of players that will make you loose by getting killed by OP vehicle that they cannot counter.

Here you can see your average players seeing VFW:

And it’s the same issue as with SPAAs in RB - you want your team to be able to take care of CAS, the GIT GUD approach isn’t going to work with people on public matchmaking, they’ll keep failing you with lack of their abilities to tackle specific threats.

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Why do you think that will be the case ?

Do you think that giving people the freedom of spawning as many air units as they want is good for the game mode ? Theoretically, you could have much more air units active than ground ones, which defeats the purpose of the current Ground mode. Admittedly, game modes should be changed from the ground up, but that’s been a wish of loads of people already.

So, if you are eager to play both tanks and planes in Ground, MM can reserve a spot for you before the game has even started.

Getting that many kills in any ground vehicle is, as I said, much more dependent on the player than on the vehicle itself.

Everyone will gain skill with experience, so just because some rookie fails to identify a weakspot on a certain vehicle doesn’t mean that vehicle is even remotely close to being OP.
CAS is often used by that same type of people to get revenge, since as we both know, strafing a VFW in your plane is laughably unfair engagement and the outcome is almost predetermined. On the other hand, VFW going against ground stuff at it’s BR will often be a coin flip, since both sides will have exploitable weaknesses.

They would still be able to rack up several kills before CAS arrives, since they would be really superior to most stuff they’ll come across.

Doubt that’s the case now, considering IS-6 is at 7.7 where it will regularly meet HEAT slingers and ATGMs that will simply ignore it’s armor, so the chance of your armor bouncing shots for you is not that great. Majority of higher tier heavies suffer the same faith, where they’ll have massive disadvantages while your armor is supposed to work, but it doesn’t.
Also, battlefield situation might drastically change in those 15+ seconds you’re waiting for reload in the IS-6.

Some vehicles might have lower skill floor but that doesn’t make them OP in any way. Also, not everyone has the same playstyle, so one vehicle excelling at a single thing might suit me much more than it will suit you for example.

VFW is strong when no one is paying attention to it, but will be dealt with pretty quickly when spotted. Enemies will have plethora of ways to counter you from the ground but the question is, will they use any of those ?

True, but focusing on yourself is really the only thing you can do, you can’t really control random teammates.
This is what I’m talking about, a vehicle is far from being OP if it has numerous cons that can be exploited, regardless if players facing it can actually do that.
It’s like arguing Tiger II is OP because people keep shooting at it’s UFP with their AP shells.

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Because that is what people want to do, they want to be the tank hunters, but other modes don’t let them do this because if you go out in a duck, grizzly or PBJ or any other vehicle that is a tank hunter in arcade AB, you will get taken down by fighter planes and that’s it. So people want to play those, but in order for them to not be the prey, but the hunters, they need to go play ground modes. Aircraft will be perceived as a superior vehicle in combined arms, and people will want to play it against players.

No, that’s a different thing. What I mean is that giving everyone even chances to get the “reward”/“better” unit is a way to go, that doesn’t necessarily mean there will be more aircraft in the air at all times, or that it’ll significantly affect the ground, because if there will be more aircraft that can fight each other for who is going to survive and stay in the air, they will.

At the same time, it doesn’t mean you’ll be able to easily spawn a plane multiple times because it requires points and each time you spawn, the points go up.

But that’s a faulty assumption that you get matched with people based on a skill level. BR does not equal skill level. I did not learn much about angling and weak spots of vehicles until I was in a squadron. Actually a got to a first Abrams without knowing how to angle the tanks and shoot weak spots, and only guys in the squadron showed me that.

The game doesn’t teach you that and doesn’t require specific skills to be able to enter specific tiers, so you can either spend enough time and not learn from that time, or pay your way up. And this way there is a collective responsibility in each time that you have a lot of players that are noobs in either team and that is why there are matches where one team is completely steam rolled by the other.

The unfair part is that there is no scroll-wheel setting of the variable-time fuze for VFW, because then it could at least defend itself against some of those attacks. Apart from it yeah, revenge bombing is annoying and unfair.

It’s not if you’re shooting at weak spots for tougher vehicles and center mass for everything else. It’s significantly easier in VFW than the others and like I said before - it’s a vehicle that lets you learn through mistakes. One thing though is - the game is lying to you with sloped armour since the volumetric shells were introduced and both T34 and Panthers are really hard to pen from the front plus the game is cheating in general when you’re supposed to complete some tasks and there will be magically impenetrable targets, but that’s a whole different topic here. In general, VFW is a magic glass cannon where you just need to be fast enough to score a first click.

But we are talking about remaking the game mode different in a way that it’ll make sense. What sense it makes to remake when the less skilled players will keep doing stupid things breaking the game for others? It’s better to figure out a way to give those players more tools to cooperate as a team in a way they will be able to use them effectively, but at the same time for those tools to not be abused.

Right now the air mission is abused, I’m abusing it as much as I can and I can see that any other skilled player is. I’m abusing it to hit targets that give me more points or are on my grocery list and not using it where my team needs help. Also I’m abusing it in a way that when I’m with my squad, we don’t let anyone else pick the planes by taking them all the time.

There are ways to solve it in a way that’ll be fair and approachable for newbies, but it’s not a simple solution. I’ve made a post in this section about this to have a clean slate there on the topic btw.

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Yes no one is able to form conclusions due to Gaijin’s lack of transparency.

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Ground Realistic Battles is where Gaijin makes its money.

It’s where you can field your full lineup of premium tanks / planes / helicopters.

Neither Ground Arcade Battles nor Air Realistic Battles offers you this ability.

With this fact in mind why wouldn’t Gaijin want to further exploit this system and make Ground Arcade Battles purely Ground battles as the air vehicles there or helicopters aren’t your own and therefor earn them no money?

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I would say it’s where gaijin best can promote the game because “realistic” feels better and is more twitchable and that’s it.

Making money doesn’t necessarily have to happen in the same mode, arcade players can play air in one match and ground in another match and still spend money. Your arguments have no support.

Yes, gaijin could allow us to use our own aircraft in arcade, and that’s what I actually advocate for exactly because of what you said, but the plan for introduction into the game and retention of the player is more complex than us just talking it out here, and there may have been a reason initially like for example at first they didn’t really know if combined arms was a good idea or not, so making it as air mission was a good choice for backpedalling, and now we’re in situation where they don’t really want to meddle with that because it somehow works?

We don’t know what the actual reason is, but we won’t know until AB players push for such change, because so far whenever people started talking about players being able to have their own plane for unlimited time, they were against it right away as the worst evil to make in this mode, while now after naval AB plane spawn was implemented, we can see it actually working better than expected in that mode and being a good example for discussion.

I’d generally say that they are at the point where they don’t want to break things if they don’t need to and because of that only a large scale push for such change from community would make them change something.