Arcade Battle should be changed to pure tank battles

[SaperPL]

@O_HOgameplay

Players could grind SPAAs in TO arcade, and they could even play with them. So this is just BS.

You can, but you have no incentive to do it if there’s no requirement to have them. Any other light or medium would be better unless there’s a specific requirement to be able to deal with planes. Again, you’re not looking at this from perspective of gaijin where they want to figure out how to encourage as much players as possible to use those vehicles.

@O_HOgameplay

Can they be balanced? (they can’t) So how could they be balanced?

I just explained how they can, but yeah, keep disagreeing…

@O_HOgameplay

The only good solution. Again, if it can be belanced, please tell me how!

… and being ignorant…

@O_HOgameplay

No. A plane is always stronger.

…again and again…

@O_HOgameplay

Arty strike is RNG even against open tops. Anything over a 50kg bomb is much more effective, and destructive. And most of the time, the smallest bomb is going to be 250kg. it can even kill a Maus.
This whole ideas is just BS.

Again - it’s just the current state and I was separating the game mode and mechanics from the balance. The current balance is indeed BS and making artillery the RNG. But I was talking about the mechanics where you choose where the bomber or strike aircraft drop bombs/fire rockets, and wait for it to happen hoping it’d have an effect. Again - this is something that would make more sense in context of balance because we wouldn’t worry about planes behaving completely differently than when you can play them in air modes, so they could be nerfed, but still it would feel like RNG or it would feel useless like artillery. But it could be done if you would want a symmetry against air modes and have aircraft in the game while not being playable by players. It was just a thought exercise to show that it could be done like that if you’d want to have actual symmetry against air mode.

@O_HOgameplay

Exactly what i said. And i wrote this, because you have implied that they would be useless/not usable.
So which one?

Again, two separate things. One is the presented problem of having to have something to deal with aircraft, another is that doesn’t mean this exact problem should be the only thing this vehicle is supposed to be useful for dealing with.

@O_HOgameplay

But what the hell would prevent me from researching them in AB???

Prevent you? nothing. But if you don’t need to use them in AB, you’re most likely not going to grind them, unless there are some of them that are good tank killers. And once you’re for some reason deciding to go to RB, now you probably should have them and that’s a friction point. There will be people that will of course deal with it and do what you said, but then there will be a lot more that will not have them, keep complaining about CAS and leave the game or get back to AB, and gaijin most likely doesn’t want that.

@O_HOgameplay

The point is that CAS most of the time does not target a single OP vehicle, or a tank in an OP position, because that is just a single kill.
If players do not use CAS to “counter” those hard to kill tanks, then your “argument” is invalid.
But, just for the sake of this argument, let’s grant you, that they counter those targets.
What prevents them to bomb the rest of the team? Including the fully uptiered, fully stock tanks, that are shit even in a full downtier fully upgraded?
Do you understand now?

Again - it can be done, for example with rewarding CAS points only when they attack scouted/marked targets. This would encourage them not to waste bombs if they’d have to return to airfield to reload for example. If they get killed by sticking all together, but it’s not rewarding the CAS - their fault for not spreading out - they could’ve been killed by artillery strikes or sturmtiger in such situation. Also if there was a warning system + awareness reduction when you’re diving into the stream of bullets + pilot reaction, then if you have multiple tanks that have turret-top guns attacking the planes, we get the same effect as in naval if players want to survive in the plane, as long as the plane is not freebie like in air mission.
Again you cannot separate current situation from what I’m talking about that can done and decide to ignore it.

@O_HOgameplay

Your “balanced by CAS” “argument” is already debunked, so…

yeah, right:

@O_HOgameplay

Oh, so here we need realism, but there not. Cherrypicking. I hope you understand, that you can not make such a “realistic” change, and then choose to ignore it in other places.

Yes, we cherry pick those mechanics that let us be in control of the situation in the gameplay. We cannot assume that we have to implement every realistic behavior, but we can pick them one by one and implement those that are added value for being able to balance things better.

@O_HOgameplay

You know, it is the same as in school, where you asked the teacher if you could get the better grade because you just need 0.5 points… You know, the answer is, that if the teacher makes an exception with you, then those, who only need 1 point could complain too… And then at the end, everyone would get the best grade…

No, it is the same as when you are designing a product and you are choosing what audience you are targeting it for, so you are discarding problems that you cannot deal with when implementing this specific product, while tackling problems that are advantageous to be tackled for marketing this product.

@O_HOgameplay

So a plane destroying a ship makes sense, if it crashes into it, but not if it crashes into a tank. Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense.

Yes, because hitting a huge object that has a wooden deck that can be put on fire with all your fuel makes sense to kill yourself for and neutralise two thousand of soldiers of the enemy team, while killing yourself by crashing into the ground and missing a 3-5 crew vehicle makes less sense.

@O_HOgameplay

Now you complain about historical accuracy, yet a few lines earlier you said that a plane crashing into a tank makes no sense…
Regardless, the game already has a metric ton of inaccuracies. You know, like crew members tanking a .50 cal into their head and surviving…
Or in fact, at any body parts, because no matter where they get hit, they get the exact same damage from that.

I don’t complain about historical accuracy. I explain that because we have balance based just on historical accuracy of vehicle performance stats, there is no proper balance if the human factor of fear and perception under fire is not involved where it really mattered. Read about or watch video about the point of SPAAs in WW2 - they weren’t supposed to take down every plane, they were supposed to scare off the pilots and take down planes from time to time if lucky. That is why if you use flat vehicle performance data and put the planes against SPAA, the planes will always go YOLO and win.

@O_HOgameplay

So what? Will they now deter the enemy planes from attacking? When many times CAS can attack from outside SPAA range?!

I’m playing mostly WW2 tiers, so that’s one thing, but once this (balance through human behavior) happens for non-radar guided SPAAs, it will probably be able to look at the high tiers having similar problem and then maybe they’ll let SPAAs be more effective there. The missile range is a problem of vehicle types, so as you mentioned before - long range missiles shouldn’t be there in the combined arms mode, I think, unless at this tier there are those S300 long range SPAAs etc.

@O_HOgameplay

Yeah, because you can complete tasks with Panzer 2s, and 4Cs. Sure.

If you have BR 1.0 event vehicle, you can do the 40K points with 1.0 vehicles and funnily it works for the event. The same works with battle tasks that you can do them if just the first played vehicle/aircraft is rank II and then rank III corresponding to first and second task, so you can have just one low BR rank III vehicle and you can roughly play BR 3.3 in AB to complete season tasks.

@O_HOgameplay

Again, please tell me how you can be balance it, so CAS needs skill. Because none of those what you wrote here would do anything.

Go read again or keep being ignorant. Remove the bomb sights, make it spawn like in naval, don’t let them get kills when you crash into the ground etc. All possible.

@O_HOgameplay

The point is, that planes require no skill to use, while using tanks does require a LOT.

Right now that is correct, because you can YOLO and there’s RNG deciding whether you successfully do a bombing run or not because of air mission mechanic being stupid.

@O_HOgameplay

Only the trash players would use the OP ones, because they lack the skill to use the conventional weaponst, so they need something that even a monkey could use.

It’s not that trash players use it - the players that are optimising their grind - those are called min-maxers and it’s a thing in game design. Sadly the optimal way to grind events is to use bombers in GF AB ;/

@O_HOgameplay

Yeah, sure. Maybe read your own rubbish first :)

Go back to school kiddo, if you don’t want to be constructive in the discussion…

[SaperPL]

@Vamilad

The data doesn’t represent 100% of users and is not “public” as you have to data mine to access it.

It does represent active users in specific time frame. What sense would it make to get your info on the accounts that are not playing anymore. Also it is public, the fact that you have to mine it doesn’t mean it’s not public.

[O_HOgameplay]

@SaperPL

You can, but you have no incentive to do it if there’s no requirement to have them. Any other light or medium would be better unless there’s a specific requirement to be able to deal with planes.

I can agree with that. tho there is the fun factor.

@SaperPL

Again, you’re not looking at this from perspective of gaijin where they want to figure out how to encourage as much players as possible to use those vehicles.

And yet, there are a bunch of other vehicles, that are practically useless, or tanks with useless mechanics.
And even then, why could you not unlcok them in arcade?!
Also, there are many other tank, that you likely unlock, but will never play.

@SaperPL

I just explained how they can, but yeah, keep disagreeing…

Because they would not make it balanced.

@SaperPL

Prevent you? nothing. But if you don’t need to use them in AB, you’re most likely not going to grind them, unless there are some of them that are good tank killers.

I have researched myn tanks that i will never play. Just like a lot of other players.

@SaperPL

Again - it can be done, for example with rewarding CAS points only when they attack scouted/marked targets. This would encourage them not to waste bombs if they’d have to return to airfield to reload for example. If they get killed by sticking all together, but it’s not rewarding the CAS - their fault for not spreading out - they could’ve been killed by artillery strikes or sturmtiger in such situation. Also if there was a warning system + awareness reduction when you’re diving into the stream of bullets + pilot reaction, then if you have multiple tanks that have turret-top guns attacking the planes, we get the same effect as in naval if players want to survive in the plane, as long as the plane is not freebie like in air mission.
Again you cannot separate current situation from what I’m talking about that can done and decide to ignore it.

Because it is still unfair. Even if your awareness bullshit is implemented, it will not prevent the CAS player to kill you with ZERO skill used.
Even if the no reward unless scouted thing is implemented, they will just bomb you anyway.
Most players using CAS are braindead, and they will attempt every chance of using CAS at any target, because those are the only times they realistically can get a kill.
And even if a good player is in them, he can either chose from a single scouted hull down tank abusing a position, or bombing the 4 unscouted tanks capping a base…

@SaperPL

Read about or watch video about the point of SPAAs in WW2 - they weren’t supposed to take down every plane, they were supposed to scare off the pilots and take down planes from time to time if lucky. That is why if you use flat vehicle performance data and put the planes against SPAA, the planes will always go YOLO and win.

Read about or watch a video about the point of tanks in WW2 - they werent’t fighting tanks and planes most of the time. they were engaging soft targets.
See? it works both ways buddy.

@SaperPL

If you have BR 1.0 event vehicle, you can do the 40K points with 1.0 vehicles and funnily it works for the event.

None of the sealclubbers i’ve ever seen use even vehicles to grind events. They are just sealclubbing.

@SaperPL

The same works with battle tasks that you can do them if just the first played vehicle/aircraft is rank II and then rank III corresponding to first and second task, so you can have just one low BR rank III vehicle and you can roughly play BR 3.3 in AB to complete season tasks.

I know. But most sealclubbers just use the Panzer 4c, Panzer 2 combo at 1.7 rank 1.

@SaperPL

Go read again or keep being ignorant.

I am being realistic.
So let’s see:

@SaperPL

Remove the bomb sights

Still requires no skill to use. People can bomb in Rb without sights, so what’s the point? I just went into the test map in RB mode with sightless aircraft with bombs, and could kill them fine.
And dedicated bombers also have proper bomb sights, so what about those? Should those be removed too?

@SaperPL

make it spawn like in naval

Losing a spawn? Wooooow, this makes them less OP!

@SaperPL

don’t let them get kills when you crash into the ground

It is not the crash that kills, but the bombs released right before the impact.

@SaperPL

All possible.

Yeah, sure. Not actually.

@SaperPL

Right now that is correct, because you can YOLO and there’s RNG deciding whether you successfully do a bombing run or not because of air mission mechanic being stupid.

It requires no skill to use in any mode, even if it is not played like the yolo you describe.

@SaperPL

It’s not that trash players use it - the players that are optimising their grind - those are called min-maxers and it’s a thing in game design. Sadly the optimal way to grind events is to use bombers in GF AB ;/

If not just the trash players would use them, then the average K/D of them would not be only 0.65.

@SaperPL

Go back to school kiddo, if you don’t want to be constructive in the discussion…

Sure. because insults help a lot :)

[Vamilad]

@SaperPL

It does represent active users in specific time frame.

It represents generated replays. It does not show exact data.

[SaperPL]

@O_HOgameplay

And yet, there are a bunch of other vehicles, that are practically useless, or tanks with useless mechanics.

It’s the Game as a Service kind of thing - they are adding things that people will hype about before they realise that are not that useful in first implementation, to gauge the actual amount of players owning and using those vehicles, and if required, they would then, if they have time, fix those. It’s a bad side of F2P/GaaS games, but it is what it is - pushing out stuff that is not useful just for the memes and collectible factor.

@O_HOgameplay

And even then, why could you not unlcok them in arcade?!

It’s not about whether you could - but whether specific types of players would do it or not. Right now you can omit those and go to the top tier without having any problem, but there is incentive to use them to complete the season tasks and challenges.

Now imagine what happens when you never played any SPAA and have to go through all tiers and unlock all SPAAs to get the top tier that you want to use in RB once you have everything else. You spent all the time playing tank-only and now you are faced with situation where all this time you weren’t using SPAA against planes, or even you weren’t grinding them out, so you’re in the top tier where you don’t know how to play SPAA and all you do is complain about the game being crap because of CAS, because SPAA being impossible to use. It’s a friction point in difficulty curve meaning a fraction of players will put down the game in such situation and go play something else.

@O_HOgameplay

Because it is still unfair. Even if your awareness bullshit is implemented, it will not prevent the CAS player to kill you with ZERO skill used.

It is unfair now - yes. With multiple mechanics added to make the conditions more balanced, it will require skill. First thing to do is to make the plane not a free air mission plane that you can YOLO in, then there’s those added smaller mechanics that will make it more skillful and less about just getting close and dropping bomb, or dropping bomb from high altitude with a crosshair. It all can be done, but the starting point is to penalise player for getting killed in the plane by making the plane not free.

@O_HOgameplay

Most players using CAS are braindead, and they will attempt every chance of using CAS at any target, because those are the only times they realistically can get a kill.

Not braindead, but focused on optimizing their grind, they are min-maxing in a sense, trying to spend least time and grind as fast as possible. Attacking whatever you want makes it that way they choose easiest targets instead of the ones that is hard for ground to tackle. If it is controlled, then maybe even getting an easy kill stolen by bomber or strafing strike aircraft with rockets won’t be that often as now.

@O_HOgameplay

And even if a good player is in them, he can either chose from a single scouted hull down tank abusing a position, or bombing the 4 unscouted tanks capping a base…

Yes, that is if he has markers on all vehicles with their corresponding types. Right now fighter planes don’t have markers and it makes harder for them to distinguish targets already, but with naval system and unlimited time, it’ll get back to being easy with unlimited time, potentially. But still, if points will only be given for scouted/marked targets, they will pick those. It can be done, it’s just a lot of minor things that need to happen…

@O_HOgameplay

None of the sealclubbers i’ve ever seen use even vehicles to grind events. They are just sealclubbing.

On 1.0 you need event vehicle, so if you’re talking about those, then I guess there’s also those people that are just making new accounts just to give themselves referral gold. On rank II and III with just one vehicle, they could already be doing events/season.

@O_HOgameplay

I know. But most sealclubbers just use the Panzer 4c, Panzer 2 combo at 1.7 rank 1.

How do you define those sealclubbers? Are those in new accounts or some lvl 100 people?

@O_HOgameplay

Still requires no skill to use. People can bomb in Rb without sights, so what’s the point? I just went into the test map in RB mode with sightless aircraft with bombs, and could kill them fine.
And dedicated bombers also have proper bomb sights, so what about those? Should those be removed too?

Not every plane is easy to dive, drop bombs and go back up to safety. Dedicated bombers most likely.

@O_HOgameplay

Losing a spawn? Wooooow, this makes them less OP!

Note that you’re not seeing heavy bombers that much in RB exactly because you have just one plane run most of the time and fighters taking down heavy bomber is easy. Bombing sight is mostly on heavy bombers that are not that agile to run away. Of course people do play them like Pe-8, but I think that’s mostly CCs showing off some unique matches and it’s not that easy to survive when enemy is not already losing.

@O_HOgameplay

It is not the crash that kills, but the bombs released right before the impact.

Exactly - don’t score the kill if the plane crashes to a player that does that. It will reduce amount of players doing this - they will have to survive for the kill to be counted to be able to complete the task with a plane, seasonal challenge or get points.

@O_HOgameplay

It requires no skill to use in any mode, even if it is not played like the yolo you describe.

In RB, in low tiers it’s easy because people don’t know how to effectively use SPAA, because it is hard to do it without lead indicator. Try playing it in naval RB or even in naval AB with the indicator against the big ships and survive while killing multiple big ships. If you’re dropping bombs from high altitude, you’ll miss most of the time, if you get close, you’ll get damaged.

@O_HOgameplay

If not just the trash players would use them, then the average K/D of them would not be only 0.65.

I’m not sure with whom you play mostly, but from my perspective when playing rank 3 - rank 4, mostly the top of the score list players are using the bombers and are doing this effectively. If you think about it - you need 3 kills to get the heavy bomber, so just by doing so it means you already have 1.0 KD in this match before they even use the bombs. And in my matches it’s usually the same 2-3 guys in a match using the bombing runs (like me) so I guess they shouldn’t be 1.0 KD players just being lucky? Unless you’re talking about situation where some guys just luckily have the bombers in one match and they are crap in multiple other matches? That seems like really specific deep dive into all people that you have played with…

@O_HOgameplay

Sure. because insults help a lot :)

Same with disregarding my arguments as BS and rubbish because you know better but have no specific arguments against them…

@Vamilad

It represents generated replays. It does not show exact data.

I don’t even know what(or why?) are you arguing about here? For the right to say that there is no public data? Just so you can say it? Replays are generated for all matches, at least that how it looks like.

Even if the system fails and doesn’t generate a replay from time to time, it still should be representative to data mine for active players in a specific time frame if you were to go there and write the names of each player in your local spreadsheet/database.

[Dodo_Dud]

@SaperPL

I don’t even know what(or why?) are you arguing about here?

Neither can I. I am left with two options:

A: doesn’t want to admit that the mode is played less frequently.
B: Just doesn’t comprehend what info is available.

In either case, there is no point to continue a discussion.

[Vamilad]

@SaperPL

I don’t even know what(or why?) are you arguing about here?

Saying that Arcade is the most played game mode because you can datamine replay numbers doesn’t state anything.

Realistic Battles is the main stay game mode of War Thunder. It’s what people play, it’s what the game is balanced around, it’s what makes Gaijin money. Arcade Battles is a sideshow that should be given purpose. That purpose can be to offer a tank only gameplay experience in War Thunder.

[ApodyktycznyCham]

The topic was clarified quite recently. When making changes to techtrees and folders.

[Vamilad]

I would love for Gaijin to release public data so we as a community can form opinions off of it. The word of a community manager is not raw data, it’s their word.

Their word is irrelevant unless raw data is shown.

[Dodo_Dud]

@Vamilad

Their word is irrelevant unless raw data is shown.

Then your word is also irrelevant unless raw data is shown. Until then…

[SaperPL]

@Vamilad

Saying that Arcade is the most played game mode because you can datamine replay numbers doesn’t state anything.

This sentence doesn’t even make sense - The point is, tank arcade has comparable amount of sessions and players to tank realistic and that’s it, to stop treating it like a lesser mode where players just briefly spend time to learn the game and move on.

It’s not like that for everyone, people just chose what they like and both modes have their fans, but hence RB is presented as mainstream through content creators, the RB community is more vocal, then RB players community is forcing this narrative that the amount of AB players is negligible in the game, which is not and can be proven by the data that can and was already data mined to prove so.

@Vamilad

Realistic Battles is the main stay game mode of War Thunder.

Where is this written? Where is a statement in the game or on the website stating this?

@Vamilad

It’s what people play

every mode that is played is what people play LOL. Even the enduring confrontation and simulator battles.

@Vamilad

it’s what the game is balanced around

Not true - arcade has it’s own BR balance.

@Vamilad

it’s what makes Gaijin money

Again - each mode that has players spending money does. Even IF arcade was to be just a tutorial that players enter through and spend fixed amount of time before actually be presented with in-game microtransactions, still being essential part of the game would mean it’s a part of money making scheme. You have no idea on how GaaS games work and spouting your opinions as solid facts LOL#2

@Vamilad

Arcade Battles is a sideshow that should be given purpose.

It has a purpose - for players that don’t want a game that is about surprises and squinting their eyes to see someone in the bushes, but want to know where the enemy is because the crew is a proxy for enemy detection. Or the ones that don’t want to spend 3 minutes driving to the front and sitting to get shot by something that’s barely visible to them and have to do that again for another 3 minutes because realistic vehicles are simply slow and boring to them.

@Vamilad

That purpose can be to offer a tank only gameplay experience in War Thunder.

LOL#3

@Vamilad

I would love for Gaijin to release public data so we as a community can form opinions off of it. The word of a community manager is not raw data, it’s their word.

Dude, even if they released raw data - would you actually believe the raw data? How do you verify whether it’s raw and unmodified? You don’t have any means to verify whether that is real or not.

@Vamilad

Their word is irrelevant unless raw data is shown.

YOU are irrelevant for this discussion unless you prove so, LOL#4

[CoffeeBean100]

@SaperPL

There is nothing about leaving GFRB as is or changing it to TO mode in the opening post.

Arcade Battle should be changed to pure tank battles，There were no planes, no helicopters, only tanks fighting each other。

@Sail1ng

If I want to play pure tank battles, I can play Arcade. If I want to play air defense vehicles and planes, I can play Realistic.

Yes, it is the OP in the first and third post. The first and third.

If you have issue with the comment MotorolaCRO had issue with just backtrack to find what set him off. The rest is just us going back and forth after him triggered by my general comments. So respectfully exactly what I had been saying.

[SaperPL]

@CoffeeBean100

Yes, it is the OP in the first and third post. The first and third.

It is in hist first comment/third post in general, but not in the opening post. Fair point though.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SaperPL

But there are SPAAs in the game because there is a combined arms aspect at least in RB, which means that if AB goes TO, then in arcade most of SPAAs are useless except of those that can act as tank destroyers as well.

This is why I’m not really for changing AB or any other mode for that matter. I bet many people wouldn’t want their mode to go change from the ground up, which is perfectly understandable.
This thread was made by a guy that thinks AB is useless and not played, which are his only reasons to change the dynamics of ABs.
I think TO can be better implemented without “stitching” it in any currently available mode.

@SaperPL

but again, allowing players to go all air doesn’t really work well and that’s exactly why gaijin isn’t doing the actual “use whatever you want from the start” combined arms mode

This is really easy to fix by introducing “roles” where, I don’t know, only 2-3 people would be able to spawn aircraft first, while others are forced to spawn in a ground unit.

@SaperPL

Yes, it’s not even/fair between modes that air has its separate mode while ground has the air forced, but with air it would be more difficult to implement a balance that would actually make it worth it for players to play ground there.

This is why no one is really pushing to make Air modes to be combined arms.
Making TO would be really simple, you already have the maps and vehicles, just ban aircraft from spawning in and job’s done.

@SaperPL

VFW or maybe even Maus would be kings of their BRs if there weren’t any CAS in the game.

Why do you think that would be the case ?
VFW looks like a fairly difficult vehicle to play, it’s pretty big with decent-ish mobility but with godawful gun depression. It’s also open top, so getting slapped with HE round wouldn’t be cool.

Maus can also easily get taken out by ground vehicles at it’s BR, considering 7.7 is filled with HEAT slingers and those things have zero issues dealing with it even from the front.
Also, the recently added M109s will be able to overpressure Maus by hitting it’s turret cheeks with their 155mm HE shell. Yeah, 6.0 / 6.3 TD can OHK a Maus, super heavy tank more than a full BR above them, so I highly doubt Maus would get even close to being OP without aircraft.

[CoffeeBean100]

@SaperPL

Moreover you are really in the wrong when you are pointing out that a new player with 200 matches shouldn’t really be voicing his opinions

Which new player?

MotorolaCRO is an advanced and very good player. I purely pointed out he did not realise what the topic was concerning, knowing he personally would like a RB TO which was NOT on offer here, the exact opposite in fact. 200 AB was to point that on the subject he has no real reason to be too involved as has almost no experience in it, in the context to his umbrage with my general thought on the subject.

It was sonething out of nothing, from a comment I popped out while bored waiting an hour in a queue for some pills.

But to be open I have no real interest as in 15 days the forum will he locked to me being 3 months after leaving WT. I admit I have no real reason to be commenting on it either, but was always aware AB players also asked for TO options even though most RBTO askers refused to accept this need, which I found irritating since I am pretty sure AB players have similar wants on this subject.

[SaperPL]

@MotorolaCRO

This is really easy to fix by introducing “roles” where, I don’t know, only 2-3 people would be able to spawn aircraft first, while others are forced to spawn in a ground unit.

This is essentially making the game like battlefield or enlisted where either luck or rotation decides whether you can use the vehicle you want. What happens if those 3 people survive whole game? For the whole match other people do not have chance to play the planes. That’s the bad side of battlefield and enlisted that it’s not a game where skill decides that you’ll take out the tank, but luck of loading first to the server and hogging the tank throughout whole game.

It won’t work like this unless there would be a system like in MOBA where you pick a hero from the queue or something like that, but if we have planes that obviously have the advantage over ground units, it’ll still be a problem.

There was a mode in Dota2 that was about remixing heroes by picking abilities in a queue from randomized pool. It made it so that you could have unique ability combinations, but the fact that there had to be some order of picking and people had better or worse combinations, made it so that most of the matches ended after first encounter where people saw they got the loosing stick and were leaving the match.

The same will happen when you’ll keep selecting players to play planes - the ones that get bombed on the spawn will keep leaving the match. Some will keep leaving until they are selected to get the plane if they are supposed to do a plane against the ground unit task.

So no, it’s not easy to fix, it’s not always that an easy change is a valid fix.

@MotorolaCRO

Why do you think that would be the case ?

While there were still markers for fighters in AB, VFW could only last till first enemy fighters went up and focused the VFW that was scoring most kills. It worked. Now it’s different because they don’t have markers and only skilled pilots will find my VFW. Even if you get slightly grazed, but you’re in the middle of the fight, you’re screwed and enemy tanks will finish you off.

Maus was a bit of a stretch here because that is historically the reason why it didn’t make sens to make super heavy tanks that it would just be bombed. T95 or Tortoise are similar cases that it’ll get focused. Those all are high enough right now that they are facing more modern ammunition, but because of that, to a degree they are useless. And there are vehicles like that they are pushed too high up BR because there is no counter of them on the ground. But effectively it makes them useless and people play them only for memes or to spade them not knowing they won’t get effective. Some of those vehicles could be tiered lower IF the mechanics of CAS would make it so that they would be the primary targets for CAS bombing and not easy soft targets all the time.

@MotorolaCRO

VFW looks like a fairly difficult vehicle to play, it’s pretty big with decent-ish mobility but with godawful gun depression. It’s also open top, so getting slapped with HE round wouldn’t be cool.

VFW and IS-6 are alike, but different. The core point of those vehicles is that they can send a second round before enemy can do critical damage to you. This is something that will let you learn the game. And VFW is best teacher in that because you can send a shot every 4 seconds on maxed-out crew.

Yes, it doesn’t have depression, but if you position yourself properly, it doesn’t matter. Of course there will be maps with hills where it’s useless, but since the game is loving USSR vehicles with similar limited gun depression, it’s not that often and not that big of a problem.

VFW can be easily killed with turret-top MGs if someone is faster than VFW for example when VFW is focusing a bigger threat at the moment. And with HE of course. But most of the players don’t carry HE just in case and don’t prepare their shots to come out at me with HE. Actually there’s like few guys once in awhile that will go out at me in their soviet tanks and shot HE right away.

Still, most of the players don’t know good strategies against unique vehicles like that and are angry that VFW is a cheat machine rather than figuring out how to tackle it. And it may be their fault, but because there are such players, VFW can get quick kills and get plane to kill others regardless of their skill, get back and keep killing noobs, get plane again and again.

@CoffeeBean100

Which new player?

MotorolaCRO is an advanced and very good player. I purely pointed out he did not realise what the topic was concerning, knowing he personally would like a RB TO which was NOT on offer here, the exact opposite in fact. 200 AB was to point that on the subject he has no real reason to be too involved as has almost no experience in it, in the context to his umbrage with my general thought on the subject.

Fair point, I missed that, sorry!

@CoffeeBean100

AB players also asked for TO options even though most RBTO askers refused to accept this need, which I found irritating since I am pretty sure AB players have similar wants on this subject.

Well, it’s gaijin’s divide & conquer strategy to make AB and RB players fight each other about who’s mode is more important. I would recommend to checking out the roadmap for 2024 and maybe coming back IF and when they would actually do something about the planes in GFAB. IMO naval spawn system would be good starting point.

I wonder how many people in those few threads here actually submitted the suggestion to do something about the GFAB planes in the poll for the roadmap…

[MotorolaCRO]

@CoffeeBean100

Yes, your flip flopping on what I originally said is derailment and you continue to forget you jumped on my comment regarding a mode you do not play.

Get off your high horse dude, everyone can see your first post in this topic, which goes like:
Go find something else.
If you don’t like a game stop playing it rather thsn ruining it for those that want to play WT.
Game is the game, they hopefully will not cater to all the simps who are not able to play WT for what it is

This looks like you haven’t even tried to give any constructive arguments, and started trolling from the get go with your “why are you demanding changes ? if you have any problems with the game just leave it and shut up already” stuff.
Sentences quoted above could be used in literally any topic as a try to shut down something you personally don’t like.

@CoffeeBean100

Shady? How?

Read the post again, you’ll hopefully see it this time.

@CoffeeBean100

if you are just a tanker or pilot then sorry but I feel the game should not cater to you outside of what is already on offer

That’s just your narrowminded opinion and there’s simply no “right” way to play the game.
Pilots are already being catered to with their own standalone mode, which means tankers should get the same thing and to the same extent.

@CoffeeBean100

YES, IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE GAME YOU PLAY (SUCH AS FOR THOSE WHOE OPINION IS AGF IS BAD BECAUSE OF AIRCRAFT AND MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY) GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE.

Liking the game isn’t black and white in most cases which you somehow fail to understand. You might like the majority of it, but there could still be some things you don’t like about it and want it changed.
As I said above, telling someone to leave if he doesn’t like something defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

@CoffeeBean100

I did! Much happier.

Wait, you left WT but are still actively posting on it’s forum ?

@CoffeeBean100

Or are you saying that, if Gaijin never ever add any TO option, people should continue to moan and moan and not try to make the situation better with the tools we already have (later part being the more important element)? Which is the opposite of what I have said and you apparently take umbrage with.

Of course they should continue moaning, regardless of what actions they take in game.
It’s like Gaijin keeps pushing OP premiums and instead of moaning about that, people just accept it and some even start playing with it lmao.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SaperPL

It won’t work like this unless there would be a system like in MOBA where you pick a hero from the queue or something like that, but if we have planes that obviously have the advantage over ground units, it’ll still be a problem.

I was more thinking about this one, where you’ll be able to pick your role in the MM so if you want to spawn aircraft first, you will be able to do so, but you’ll might wait a little longer for a match.

@SaperPL

So no, it’s not easy to fix, it’s not always that an easy change is a valid fix.

I was talking about stopping people from all going in planes as their first spawn, which is really easy to fix.

Other modes could get much improved with this “role” logic as well, for example in Air RB you’ll have games where your team will be formed of nothing else than strike aircrafts going for bases, which is obviously pretty unbalanced.
Gaijin looking indifferent to those problems for so many years is concerning.

@SaperPL

While there were still markers for fighters in AB, VFW could only last till first enemy fighters went up and focused the VFW that was scoring most kills. It worked. Now it’s different because they don’t have markers and only skilled pilots will find my VFW. Even if you get slightly grazed, but you’re in the middle of the fight, you’re screwed and enemy tanks will finish you off.

It shouldn’t be that hard to find such a big target on really small maps we have in the game.
Also, planes suddenly disappearing wouldn’t make VFW OP, since tanks will still be able to deal with it pretty easily.

@SaperPL

Those all are high enough right now that they are facing more modern ammunition, but because of that, to a degree they are useless.

I wouldn’t call them useless but specifically really map and playstyle dependent.

@SaperPL

And there are vehicles like that they are pushed too high up BR because there is no counter of them on the ground.

I still have to find a ground vehicle that can’t be countered by other ground vehicles at their BR (excluding really low tiers, I don’t play those), so having CAS to do the “dirty” work is simply not needed.

@SaperPL

Some of those vehicles could be tiered lower IF the mechanics of CAS would make it so that they would be the primary targets for CAS bombing and not easy soft targets all the time.

I mean this could apply to every vehicle in the game, not just super heavies. You could significantly lower the BR of higher tier tanks that have all bells and whistles and just use CAS to deal with them, considering tanks would have a really hard time doing that.

@SaperPL

VFW and IS-6 are alike, but different. The core point of those vehicles is that they can send a second round before enemy can do critical damage to you. This is something that will let you learn the game. And VFW is best teacher in that because you can send a shot every 4 seconds on maxed-out crew.

I don’t see a common thing between VFW and IS-6, and IS-6 will have one of the worst reloads at it’s BR as well.
Also, I still don’t see how those would suddenly become OP without CAS ?

@SaperPL

Yes, it doesn’t have depression, but if you position yourself properly, it doesn’t matter

This works for who knows how many vehicles in the game. If you position yourself properly and do the right things, most vehicles will look OP. But one should ask himself, is that the case because of the vehicle’s performance or is it because of player’s performance ?

@SaperPL

But most of the players don’t carry HE just in case and don’t prepare their shots to come out at me with HE.

You don’t even need to use HE as your first shot, it’s more than enough to learn where to shoot and any round will disable the vehicle’s ability to fight back.
As I said, it’s a really big vehicle with close to no armor, so some parts of it might stick out where you aren’t expecting which is more than enough to get blasted with HE.
I don’t know how many times I fired my AP round in the ground just to reload HE and slap unsuspecting open top with it.

@SaperPL

Still, most of the players don’t know good strategies against unique vehicles like that and are angry that VFW is a cheat machine rather than figuring out how to tackle it.

You don’t need much strategy to deal with any open top, VFW included.
If you see you have time and opportunity to load HE and smack it’s face, do it, and if not, shoot to disable.

But I agree with you on that part, some people won’t bother doing three clicks to find where the gunner sits in the X-Ray, thus will struggle against open tops and when using vehicles without APHE sphere of death crutch.

[SaperPL]

@MotorolaCRO

I was more thinking about this one, where you’ll be able to pick your role in the MM so if you want to spawn aircraft first, you will be able to do so, but you’ll might wait a little longer for a match.

Then there will be more people wanting to play planes in ground matches than the ones wanting to play tanks, and we’ll either get back to battlefield problem of people hogging the aircraft, or it’ll be random because matchmaker will have to decide and the choice would be just preference, OR there wouldn’t be enough tankers in the queue to play the ground matches. It’s not an acceptable solution from the perspective of developer to change the mode like that, because it’s a risk of killing the mode completely.

@MotorolaCRO

I was talking about stopping people from all going in planes as their first spawn, which is really easy to fix.

Yes, I got that, but then it’s either that there is a limit of how many planes can be alive at once, so other people are waiting, so we’re in battlefield issue here, or there’s a timer and we get more and more planes in the air while having less planes on the ground, so the people who get there later have less ground targets to hit. It’s not a good system.

Whole idea of defining who is the designated pilot is not going to work outside of squadron/clan matches, because it’s never going to be fair to everyone and it will make people keep leaving the game and eventually stop playing completely.

@MotorolaCRO

It shouldn’t be that hard to find such a big target on really small maps we have in the game.

For some reason markers do the difference that now I do survive a lot longer in VFW. Also with good camouflage, a static vehicle in a shadow can be hard to spot from a safe range.

@MotorolaCRO

Also, planes suddenly disappearing wouldn’t make VFW OP, since tanks will still be able to deal with it pretty easily.

In games where I can survive the VFW for the whole match because I’m not bothered by fighter planes or bombs, I’m scoring way above other players, unless there are similar OP vehicles, like for example when I’m playing with other squadron mates in their VFWs. As long as VFW was my main, I would keep playing VFW as long as possible and would score between 12-17 kills in each match, not always with VFW because I could use bombers, but VFW is faster in killing than a bombing run on a map with shooting galleries. Anyway there is a difference now and it feels slightly easier to play with VFW in arcade.

@MotorolaCRO

I wouldn’t call them useless but specifically really map and playstyle dependent.

Yeah, I overstated that, but I think you get what I mean. The advantage of heavy armour is negligible at the BRs those are pushed to.

@MotorolaCRO

I still have to find a ground vehicle that can’t be countered by other ground vehicles at their BR (excluding really low tiers, I don’t play those), so having CAS to do the “dirty” work is simply not needed.

But you are thinking about laboratory conditions here where all players are experienced ones and can/will do those countering actions. But in public random matches you get players that don’t do this, and effectively you find yourself in a team where just your squad of experienced players is left against whole team of players just because your team got killed too easily. You cannot be always a nanny taking care of every OP vehicle yourself - you can’t always be everywhere.

@MotorolaCRO

I mean this could apply to every vehicle in the game, not just super heavies. You could significantly lower the BR of higher tier tanks that have all bells and whistles and just use CAS to deal with them, considering tanks would have a really hard time doing that.

Yes, essentially making some targets priority for CAS often would effect statistically-driven BRs of those units.

@MotorolaCRO

I don’t see a common thing between VFW and IS-6, and IS-6 will have one of the worst reloads at it’s BR as well.
Also, I still don’t see how those would suddenly become OP without CAS ?

Again - you can shoot another round before the enemy can. VFW because of speed, IS-6 because it bounces a lot. Not 100% sure if that’s still the case, but I remember that IS-6 was a go-to premium to buy to learn the game through arcade like in every squadron I was, exactly because of that - it gives you time to shoot again and correct your shot.
Recently I won my team an RB SQB match in IS-6 thanks to that, once my team has taken care of the planes. It bounces, so you can take your time aiming, while VFW lets you keep sending those rounds again and again. The core principle of having time to aim while the enemy can’t can be used in both.

@MotorolaCRO

But one should ask himself, is that the case because of the vehicle’s performance or is it because of player’s performance ?

I think both, because of course you can be bad at playing anything, but like I said before - VFW and other shooting machines are something that is easy to keep killing and learn the perfect shots quickly - it’s a game teaching machine.

@MotorolaCRO

You don’t even need to use HE as your first shot, it’s more than enough to learn where to shoot and any round will disable the vehicle’s ability to fight back.
As I said, it’s a really big vehicle with close to no armor, so some parts of it might stick out where you aren’t expecting which is more than enough to get blasted with HE.
I don’t know how many times I fired my AP round in the ground just to reload HE and slap unsuspecting open top with it.

That is correct, but again - you’re not playing in a vacuum with just your squadron mates, but there’s a whole team of players that will make you loose by getting killed by OP vehicle that they cannot counter.

Here you can see your average players seeing VFW:

VFW Quad Kill on Sweden

And it’s the same issue as with SPAAs in RB - you want your team to be able to take care of CAS, the GIT GUD approach isn’t going to work with people on public matchmaking, they’ll keep failing you with lack of their abilities to tackle specific threats.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SaperPL

Then there will be more people wanting to play planes in ground matches than the ones wanting to play tanks

Why do you think that will be the case ?

@SaperPL

Yes, I got that, but then it’s either that there is a limit of how many planes can be alive at once, so other people are waiting, so we’re in battlefield issue here, or there’s a timer and we get more and more planes in the air while having less planes on the ground, so the people who get there later have less ground targets to hit. It’s not a good system.

Do you think that giving people the freedom of spawning as many air units as they want is good for the game mode ? Theoretically, you could have much more air units active than ground ones, which defeats the purpose of the current Ground mode. Admittedly, game modes should be changed from the ground up, but that’s been a wish of loads of people already.

So, if you are eager to play both tanks and planes in Ground, MM can reserve a spot for you before the game has even started.

@SaperPL

As long as VFW was my main, I would keep playing VFW as long as possible and would score between 12-17 kills in each match

Getting that many kills in any ground vehicle is, as I said, much more dependent on the player than on the vehicle itself.

@SaperPL

But you are thinking about laboratory conditions here where all players are experienced ones and can/will do those countering actions.

Everyone will gain skill with experience, so just because some rookie fails to identify a weakspot on a certain vehicle doesn’t mean that vehicle is even remotely close to being OP.
CAS is often used by that same type of people to get revenge, since as we both know, strafing a VFW in your plane is laughably unfair engagement and the outcome is almost predetermined. On the other hand, VFW going against ground stuff at it’s BR will often be a coin flip, since both sides will have exploitable weaknesses.

@SaperPL

Yes, essentially making some targets priority for CAS often would effect statistically-driven BRs of those units.

They would still be able to rack up several kills before CAS arrives, since they would be really superior to most stuff they’ll come across.

@SaperPL

Not 100% sure if that’s still the case, but I remember that IS-6 was a go-to premium to buy to learn the game

Doubt that’s the case now, considering IS-6 is at 7.7 where it will regularly meet HEAT slingers and ATGMs that will simply ignore it’s armor, so the chance of your armor bouncing shots for you is not that great. Majority of higher tier heavies suffer the same faith, where they’ll have massive disadvantages while your armor is supposed to work, but it doesn’t.
Also, battlefield situation might drastically change in those 15+ seconds you’re waiting for reload in the IS-6.

@SaperPL

I think both, because of course you can be bad at playing anything, but like I said before - VFW and other shooting machines are something that is easy to keep killing and learn the perfect shots quickly - it’s a game teaching machine.

Some vehicles might have lower skill floor but that doesn’t make them OP in any way. Also, not everyone has the same playstyle, so one vehicle excelling at a single thing might suit me much more than it will suit you for example.

VFW is strong when no one is paying attention to it, but will be dealt with pretty quickly when spotted. Enemies will have plethora of ways to counter you from the ground but the question is, will they use any of those ?

@SaperPL

That is correct, but again - you’re not playing in a vacuum with just your squadron mates, but there’s a whole team of players that will make you loose by getting killed by OP vehicle that they cannot counter.

True, but focusing on yourself is really the only thing you can do, you can’t really control random teammates.
This is what I’m talking about, a vehicle is far from being OP if it has numerous cons that can be exploited, regardless if players facing it can actually do that.
It’s like arguing Tiger II is OP because people keep shooting at it’s UFP with their AP shells.