And with even you probably mean only.
Like there no other mention.
And listing ammunition that is compatible with a weapon doesn’t mean it’s general practice.
Like the only reason it would be used, is if there were no planes to use the ammo.
But even then I find it more likely that they would just recycle the tungsten.
I think „out of desperation“ is not a valid excuse for the ammunition to be used in SPAA.
Well, it’s a 15mm. Just a big MG and against ships 15mm AP or APCR would hardly make a difference.
After 15mm APCR lost its use as a tank killer, might as well fire it against small boats that might have some armor plates here and there.
If it’s so well known, I’m sure more people have heard about it.
There’s hardly any information on the actual Kugelblitz, so how would there be anything well known about its use in combat, if it every happened.
So what is it exactly that supposedly happened?
One was destroyed in street combat in Berlin, by the Russians. Just one photo as evidence.
The most well known case happened in April 1945 near the village of Spichra. Kugelblitz opened fire on a US column, which had to retreat. Later the Kugelblitz was destroyed in ground combat, as US attacked in force. The remarkable thing here is that the wreckage was found in a forest, late '90. Which is a 100% proof of its existence and use. Cause Kugel always lacked clear photographic proof of existence, since only 5 were ever produced. And all known combat cases were vs. ground troops.
So how is that evidence that it fired HAVP at the US forced?
You can just link people to your topic…
i think its a great nerf im sick and tired of the SPAAs running around being able to just hold left mouse to kill a guy without even trying while i do think its a bit ridiculous that they removed the rounds all together instead of nerfing the pen so that they cant just point and click an MBT i do get why they just removed the round there is also the problems of these SPAA just not taking any damage when hit unless you have a round with an explosive filler (APHE,HE,HEAT,HESH) but we all know no one takes those rounds because how useless they are on anything else 1 thing that puzzles me though is why they did it for the AMX and the falcon but not the worse offenders like XM246 gepard chieftain marksman ZA-35 type 87 PGZ09 and the ITPSV leopard
But that just shows that the gun could fire the ammunition.
Which we already know.
But what’s important whether the ammunition was used or not.
Particular the intention.
And there was never any interest in producing APCR ammunition for AA guns.
We know this because the APCR was produced by the Luftwaffe for aircraft use. As such it carries the aircraft ammunition markings, while other ammo types used for the 3.7 BK had regular Flak artillery markings, as described in the aircraft ammunition manual.
Even if ammo was available and could theoretically be used, it wasn’t anything official and the ammo was never produced for AA gun use.
As such, turning German 37mm AA guns into more effective tank destroyers than Pz IVs makes no sense from a historical point.
Nor from a gameplay point where AAs should be good at killing planes.
Recent APDS ammo production for Gepards. So everything seems to be used irl as we have ingame.
Live belt 35mm, AP / HEI / HEI / HEI / AP, as we have in ingame.
There is no doubt is was like this for all other SPAAs, dating back to WW2 to recent times. You never know what happens in a war. One day you need to shoot some halftracks and holed up infantry in a building. The other day you need HE to shot at air targets… You can see AA autocannons doing all possible things from clearing mines in the water to shooting air targets.There is ammo for every purpose.
I‘m talking about German WW2 AA guns.
Why do you think they never used APCR or AP? Thats plain wrong. Thats what I wanted to tell you. AA were used for many different things in army and navy. So there are different ammo types. Always had been. You can’t talk it away.
And you can’t make things up just because you think that’s what they should have done.
German AAs had AP and HE, like every nation.
Literally the only country that produced APCR for AA guns was the Soviet Union for their 37mm AA.
But they were interned to be used as multipurpose guns, while German guns had just one job: Fire at air targets or ground targets in range.
But they were never intended to actively fight armored vehicles.
The German Gebirgsjäger Flak is probably the only exception, since the gun would be used more offensively.
Really? If that’s a full-caliber round that would trade 18mm pen for a substantial postpen increase. Would be a worthy trade.
Yup, SPAAG merely are good at exploiting buggy features and half-baked gameplay mechanics. I find it strange how people demonize the AA so much more than pointing out those other features, let alone plainly stating what it would take to fix those.
Supposedly they enhanced spall from the APHE rounds to ensure those radar AA kill planes correctly and not spark. Talk about one hell of a band-aid…
Except the BK 3,7 and 37mm Flak guns (other than the Gerat 341 which is different cartridge size) are the same damn gun. Like the one on the 37mm truck in low tiers is exactly the same but just flipped over to fit a different platform. The Ostwind/Ostwind II versions to my understanding are still the same gun but they shoot faster.
We already see many vehicles used ingame in ways that are against “doctrine.” Deciding that any vehicle at this point be limited by “doctrine” is an arbitrary and frankly senseless nerf so long as current gameplay fails to match the majority of real combat.
If the gun has the same breech and cartridge dimensions and same bore, it can shoot the same ammo. Quite a few machines in WT now operate on what is “plausible” and not exclusively on what they actually used (especially cases of one-off prototypes).
What is the BK 4,3 cannon? Is it an aerial version of the Flak43? I tried looking up info on it and could find nothing. Google was directing me to pages on the BK 3,7, KwK43, or PaK43 cannons.
Yes, but this is a doctrinal limit, not a technical one. To my understanding there is no physical restriction for a Gepard to load its belts fully with APDS if it wants/needs to, given that the APDS and the FAPDS have identical dimensions, and the latter (which the game does not yet have) is the modern standard anti-air ammo currently being used to shoot down drones in Ukraine.
Modern Gepards use FAPDS (same dimensions as ingame APDS with a tip that fragments more easily) as standard AA ammo due to higher velocity giving more range and easier lead calculations. It’s currently killing drones en masse in Ukraine.
No, players who think this are in the wrong. As I said earlier in this topic - snail has been trying to prevent AAs from killing tanks for MORE THAN TEN YEARS! And it hasn’t worked, because it CAN’T.
It’s overdue to tell the whiners to fuck themselves, completely reverse course, and MAKE them back down. IDGAF if it “breaks the game” or not - if snail will only decide to give larger and more varied maps when push comes to shove, then perhaps unshackling SPAAG will be the necessary steel-toed boot up their rear end to accomplish such. City maps are what allow the majority of SPAAG shenanigans to even work in the first place. Their effectiveness drops off a cliff the moment you make average maps with engagement at larger distances.
It doesn’t matter how many times you keep nerfing AA - people will keep hunting tanks with it. To grind modules efficiently demands it. To be effective at AA duty demands it so you can clear a map area and not sit uselessly in your own spawn. More dumb nerfs to AA are literally the definition of insanity - doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
This is a global APHE problem, not specifically an SPAAG one.
I guess you are not thinking clearly about the reality of actually playing SPAAG in War Thunder. Current gameplay literally demands that AA hunt tanks so they can survive getting to and holding relevant locations on maps that are not their own team’s spawn. Killing tanks gives far more RP, SL, and SP than killing planes does.
City maps, globally overperforming APHE, old armor models, server glitches, and buggy features intended to prevent more server glitches are the real culprits - none of which are actually exclusive to AA at all.
That is more than enough for me, and has also been used for snail when they want to give a certain vehicle a certain round.
The only reason they would be more effective than Panzer IVs is due to an overabundance of city maps that enable AAs to get within spitting distance of their targets unnoticed and exploit superior gun handling at short range before the target can react.
Currently most AAs are not all that good at killing planes as soon as the planes have more than a couple brain cells. Rewards also encourage people to hunt tanks.
Many vehicles ingame are used in ways other than intended - to decide that such standards should suddenly be ironclad for SPAAG is an arbitrary and unfair nerf to SPAAG.
Nearly all tanks ingame are not meant to engage at point blank city distances, yet that is the standard currently.
Yes, but not BK 4,3 but 43. Its the same as BK 3,7 just a Flak 43 instead of Flak 18. Why they changed the designation type from caliber to year date for only that gun instead of additional model designation like BK 3,7/1 i dont know. Its not that far known with exception to some books and a document. Overall it was (to my knowlege) only mounted to 2 Aircraft. The Bf 110 G-2 and Me 410. Because the Flak 18 had slight problems with the G force and cold temperatures so high up (thats also why each BK 3,7 has its own heater), thats overall not a problem with Ground straving on a Ju 87 or Ju 88, but high up with manuvering caused stoppages. The Bk 43 didnt have the problems and came with an increased fire rate and ammo amount (since the same amount of ammo frame was carried, but now with 2 rounds each more).
I actually reported the missing modification to change the Bk 3,7 on the G-2 in game to a Bk 43 as well as suggested here the Me 410 with BK 43.
AA hardly cost any SP to spawn, unlike planes.
Even if AAs are not equal to planes, they are more than capable to shoot them down for how little they cost in comparison and are still able to capture points, unlike fighters, which at best target some light armored ground vehicles.
Isn’t that an APCR round? Germans just named it Panzergranate. Hard penetrator with less dense metal around. Less weight, more speed, more pen than full AP.
Its the ammo we have ingame for the MG151/15mm SPAA? Called APCR with 49mm pen at 0m and 90 degree.
Sd.Kfz 225/21 lost in ground combat vs. US troops. Look at the belt (15mm x 96 HE variants are all flat nosed and the full calibre AP looks sharper, thinner than APCR.
Are you from the future? Cause the game hasn’t been updated yet…
Painting speculation as fact is not helpful to discussion.
We don’t know that Falcon will get a lower BR than the current one in future.
Sire, do you have a Delorian of your own…?
If Falcon goes down in BR, then it will be better for British TT to fill the air gap between Skink and Chieftain Marksman.
If Falcon doesn’t go down in BR while losing APDS. (Just like Vampire FB.5 case)
Then this will be nothing more than just another Blunder.
Because Falcon will lose APDS, but Gephad or Chieftain Marksman in the same BR still retains APDS.
Edit: False-flagging, without responding, Lame…
I don’t want to fight, just let me hear what you think.
Yes.
It’s really difficult to tell. The vehicle and ammunition is covered in mud.
But I can tell you that this mount was only intended for ground support.
Firing only HEFI-T and AP-T, which were obsolete and going to be replaced by IT and API in service.
Only the center gun was to be loaded with AP and only 1:4 to HE.
While it could be used to target aircraft, it wasn’t an AA vehicle.
Just how a Toyota technical with a .50cal isn’t an AA, even though there is the Russian GAZ truck that actually carried an AA HMG.
Personally I would remove any ammo that isn’t HEFI-T or AP-T. (Even though I could see it potentially using 15mm APCR, as there wasn’t any other use for it in 1944)
The MG 151/20 version also shouldn’t fire Mineshells, like we have in the game, for the same reason.
The role was ground fire support for infantry.
Very sure the AMX-30S DCA has never fired APDS in real life. I am not sure about the Falcon but I believe the SPAA will still be very annoying even without APDS.
