I never said it wasn’t, just that we’ve been hugging the deck wayyyyyy before the it was even introduced.
2 Likes
Yeah im an idiot lol, I thought you were saying the R-27ER was needed to survive against AIM-7s. My bad.
1 Like
R-77s only have one thing better and its short range performance.
The thing that matters the least. People don’t get close anymore. And Aim-120 isn’t bad at short range either. Just worse than R-77.
3 Likes
Yup, this is the thing. You get close, you die. US teams are thus more survivable which will affect WRs.
That said, it seems like most top tier players are especially bad after this last update. Even with the impediments of the SU-27SM, and the pain in the ass gameplay you need to actually be successful in it, I’m finding myself doing better than most others on my teams. It’s a strange thing how many wanted FOX 3s but can’t adapt to the playstyle.
1 Like
Agreed. I always hear the “You can’t notch and chaff missiles when the entire lobby is firing them at you”, but I have yet to have more than two fired at me at once. And lets be honest, its not like you’re out of options even when that happens. It’s all about positioning, and now players who whined for the FOX-3s are complaining because they don’t understand it.
4 Likes
Problem arises when you are using a plane with very limited countermeasures. Chaff is very useful against FOX-3.
(ehm su-27)
Turning cold and running is always an option. However, it could be difficult with russian energy retention, couldn’t it?
Especially at altitude, once you lose speed in Su-27 or mig, you just hang in the air and can’t notch/dodge anymore
2 Likes
The FoV numbers are different, but the mechanism is the same.
You made a typo buddy. You typed 5km instead of 500m
1 Like
And? Considering the IRCCM mechanism is constricting FOV, a larger FOV is literally a downgrade. Are you gonna act like the R-27ET has IRCCM as effective as the R-73? laughable.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not remotely saying that they’re equal. If anything the “strength” of the 27ET isn’t its IRCCM and instead is its propensity to just sucker-punch people that didn’t know that a threat was within their time zone. But finding someone alone like that is a challenge because in all likelihood they’re going to accidentally flare the 27ET while they were busy defending against someone else.
This all started with someone curious about why the 27ET feels like it doesn’t have IRCCM. I wanted to explain WHY it felt that way. It feels that way because its mechanism of IRCCM is only effective at point blank ranges. It shares this mechanism with the R-73, but is even worse due to having an even wider FOV. This is suboptimal for a medium range fox-2 since the main risk with such a long range fox-2 is that the target will accidentally defeat the missile when he pops countermeasures vs some other more pressing threat. It would be a MUCH deadlier missile if it had the 9M’s IRCCM mechanism because the 9M is essentially immune to being inadvertently defeated by someone who just turns on periodic countermeasures or defends against a third party threat. You need to actively notice the incoming 9M and take deliberate action to defeat it. But, alas, the 27ET doesn’t have the 9M’s IRCCM mechanism. So it virtually doesn’t have effective IRCCM whatsoever and is almost entirely a sucker punch missile for surprising isolated opponents that didn’t think anyone was in position to take a shot against them. This is a niche application but I think arguments can be made that it is worth it for the Flankers to carry the 27ET since they have enough pylons to afford to carry a few niche missiles. The yak-141 can afford to carry the 27ET and 27T because despite its problems it’s still better than the R-60Miss, although it is a bit less compelling for the 141 to take them in the current patch due to the current state of weak multipathing.
Back to the topic of the R-77, I’ve managed to stay positive with my K:D in the 27SM, and IMO the only way to seriously compete against the overwhelming superiority of the 120 is to fly like a rat by terrain masking behind mountains or inside canyons until you can sneak your way into pitbull range. Then just fling R-77’s and R-73’s at as many people as you can. The 10km ACM is the biggest problem when engaging targets at pitbull range, but you can partially close that gap by initially acquiring target locks with HMD IRST before passing the lock off to radar in preparation for the launch. It doesn’t always successfully pass the lock to radar, and you’re completely out of luck if clouds, fog, or rain are present.
No matter how you approach the situation, the russian birds are objectively at a disadvantage at every range bracket. You fight uphill in the snow both ways. You cannot compete at long range combat due to the R-77 having terrible range/drag, and the foolishness of trying to fight Fox-3’s with Fox-1’s. At close range you are at a disadvantage due to inferior range on radar ACM, and garbage scan rates/search patterns for selecting targets with BVR targetting. I just think that the power gap for BVR combat is so great that it is insurmountable and it is foolish to even try. That you are much better off trying to sneak into pitbull range since the problems with your radar and ACM mode are ones that can be overcome with a bit of luck or experience with managing your BVR targetting or IRST.
Now if only the matchmaker would cooperate and provide more maps that actually have some usable terrain. Most nights it’s a string of: Golan Heights, Golan Heights, Golan Heights, Golan Heights, BAN GOLAN HEIGHTS, Sinai, Sinai, Sinai, Sinai.
1 Like
Do you even read my replies?
Changes to aircraft and missiles affect sim.
I can’t say if it’s dead or not, because I didn’t play it before AIM-9M, but I can find matches so I wouldn’t say so.
After the patch hype died down, it was getting difficult to find matches, because the main U.S. adversary - Russia - was too weak, but after the deserved buff for R-77, deserved nerf for AIM-120 and new BR brackets, there are a lot more people playing.
Yes, I always thought AIM-120 was too good and R-77 was too bad. I was fighting the way you portrayed things, as if it was the end of the world.
SU-27 has large caliber countermeasures. I don’t know how about chaff, but it’s better to have a few large caliber flares, than 300+ small flares on a big, hot plane like SU-27 or F-14B.
SU-27 bricks up above mach 1 and doesn’t lose so much speed.
Do you know what the issue is? Let me explain
The Su-27 with missiles and 25-30 minutes of fuel when climbing with WEP starting from Mach 1 at 20* loses speed in the climb. Once you reach the altitude you want, you are slow as hell. Especially in terms of IAS.
In the F-15, with 8 AIM-120 at 30*, not 20, 30*, you gain speed when climbing. Especially if you gradually lower the degree of climb as you get higher.
If you do this gradual lowering in su-27 you just won’t climb at all because the initial climb degree was already low.
So when both planes are at the point of engagement, the F-15 is at 6-7KM altitude with 1400-1500 KMH speed, something like 1100 IAS.
Su-27 is at 900-1000KMH with 600-700 IAS. So you die when you notch once. Or you stay low with your draggy garbage R-77 and it has even less range then
Not even joking, the Mig-23ML(D) climbs better and retains speed better
That’s how much of a downgrade the Su-27 is
I’ve also tried to make the R-27ER work so many times in this patch, it just doesn’t work. The radar is horrible and the moment someone starts going cold the radar loses lock.
And you have to maintain that lock unlike Fox-3.
It only works good at close-medium ranges, because you don’t have time to guide the missile at long range
1 Like
F-15 still wins.
This is more even than it is in the Su-27’s favor.
Nobody dies to this missile.
not really a benefit with AIR RB markers.
This quite literally does not matter.
We have AMRAAMS. The kinematic performance of an R-27ER doesn’t matter. It’s like citing the velocity of your 5.56 rounds as an advantage in a situation where an M240 machine gunner is shooting at you. It just isn’t gonna help you.
Way to miss the point, dude.
Bruh.
I wish this wasn’t true, but it’s tragically true.
The plane famous for 1 circle capability loses in 1C to F-15 and F-16
2 Likes
Yep, absolutely insane how that works. I would love to say russian airframes are just this bad, but honestly its really ridiculous.
1 Like
Yes, exactly. In sim, if you use IRST and manage to stay out of the scan zone of the enemy radar, there is nothing your target can do to avoid getting hit, unless he has 6th sense or knows he’s in enemy airspace and is extra cautious. In sim they are very deadly, in air rb not so much, but still good.
That’s what I mean, they are still usable.
From long range you have to launch an R-27ER (or a few), to force him to notch it. If you launched an R-77, I bet he could just do an F-pole maneuver and stay offensive. Maybe not after the R-77 buff, I don’t know. This forces both of you to notch, which allows you to enter the same gameplay loop other FOX 3s, so basically launching, notching and who can do it faster.
Once you get close and notching on time becomes harder, your R-77 becomes better, especially after the buff. Radar scan speed will be an issue, but you can use manual target selection, to get your scan zone faster on target, as you come out of the notch. It’s easy on a joystick with a hat switch, but I guess hard to do in air rb.
If you both survive to the merge, you still have some cards up your sleeve. You have R-73s with thrust vectoring and IRCCM + 90 degrees HMS, AOA, and at least for the SU-27, 4 of the R-73s, while your enemy will probably have 2 AIM-9Ms. The one who forces his way of fighting (1 circle or 2 circle), will win. In theory a rate fighter should always win, but also in theory a boom and zoom prop fighter should always win with a prop turn fighter.
I honestly don’t know at this point if Russian planes’ flight models are inaccurate or not. I’ve heard voices they are and I’ve heard voices they were nerfed based on the documents. If they are inaccurate, make them accurate, if they are, they should stay the way they are. However, if they end up getting buffed, something should be done about R-27ER on planes without R-77s, otherwise they would become very OP.
While U.S. planes are better in most aspects, Russian planes aren’t that far behind them in those aspects. Overall U.S. planes are better though. If flight models are inaccurate, then too much better and if they are accurate, then probably you all just don’t know how to leverage your advantages.
Off topic (on my part), but yes, getting the same maps over and over again is boring and should be fixed.