Versus the current method of deciding the match after the first minute?
CAS is equally strong in both situations in one you have a chance of your team intercepting them.
Too hard to scroll maybe.
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people would simply leave after loosing the initial air battle.
so i rather have at least 2 minutes of tank battles than 0 minutes of tank battles.
People already leave now once there are multiple CAS vehicles active.
SPAA would still be an option.
60 seconds assuming you’re not at a BR where you face heli rushers.
From a pure marketing perspective you might rethink you general wording of your OP and the title of this thread.
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Your main goal is to increase the realism of the combined arms mode to enhance the realistic game play experience of this mode.
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Real combined arms foresees a battle of air superiority above the battlefield. The overall goal of Combat Air Patrol (CAP) is to protect own Ground units vs threats from enemy Close Air Support (CAS), enemy Air Indictors (AI - also known as DAS = Deep Air Support) and/or to protect own CAS and AIs.
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By pure definition a CAP mission can only be fulfilled if CAP aircraft arrive before enemy CAS is over the front line. That’s the main reason why CAP aircraft need a first spawn possibility.
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The current set up for wt Ground RB makes this impossible and should be adjusted to reflect the battle of combined arms way more realistic than today.
I wrote some time ago a summary for this first spawn in an aircraft idea:
After watching several hundreds of vids and replays of Ground RB in the last 7 years the majority of matches follow the same rules: Rush a cap, earn SP for a CAS plane, die and farm Ground units or kill clueless pilots tunnel visioning on revenge bombing or ground attack in general.
If you would implement a first spawn in an aircraft without any A2G load like bombs or rockets, add markers for A2A combat (so no ground unit markers) and ensure that they attack only enemy aircraft (so playing anti-CAS or just cover own CAS) you would have way less issues with balancing CAS vs tanks.
Most valid arguments against such a proposal:
- Planes with cannons and HMGs are still a massive threat for open top / light vehicles
- Pilots have their own mode, why should they be allowed to play Ground RB without playing tanks
- First spawn planes will reduce the number of available ground units for capturing and holding points. Very long and very tight matches (imho rather rare) are usually decided by tanks as they ensure ticket wins with holding / defending points.
Can be countered with:
- Simply kick them out of the lobby if they attack anything else than enemy aircraft (including choppers) or SPAAs (for self-defense). If you won’t want to kick them out: Disable damage of cannons/HMGs and map pinging in case they want to mark them.
- Air RB is flooded with tankers which perform actually useless tasks like base bombing or farming ai units. They are playing PvE in a TDM game mode with severe impact on the outcome of matches - basically the team with less tankers wins. By allowing dedicated pilots to defend own ground units in Ground RB dedicated tankers could focus on the ground battle.
- Just limit the number of first spawn planes (2-4 based on lobby size) and allow them to load ground loadouts and to attack other targets as outlined in point 1 after 15 (?) minutes or earlier if just a few players are left.
Summary:
I follow this CAS issue and connected points like ODLs for years now from a pure pilot perspective. It is obvious that gaijin is aware of this, but despite hundreds of threads and thousands of posts i see not substantial changes in their game design.
So from a holistic pov gaijin assesses the current situation as fine. Any attempts to weaken planes in Ground RB or to convince them to implement TO modes are a dead end as they would have a severe impact on their earnings. I mean Ground RB players are forced to buy planes to defend their tanks - so why would they change anything?
This summary is the very short version of series of posts i wrote regarding this topic - dealing with topics like:
Why do you need better pilots in Ground RB
Why a few slots for first spawn aircraft makes sense
Postings:
I posted last year (First spawn without A2G payload).
Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #4 by Uncle_J_Wick
The usual counter argument is: Why do we need good pilots in Ground RB:
Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #45 by Uncle_J_Wick
The next counter argument is usually - those guys with first spawn planes reduce out team size - less tanks means less caps = more defeats - combined with: “Cannons kill tanks too!” - easy solution: Disable damage on Ground units for a certain time, allow just damage/kills on SPAAs for self defense:
Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #52 by Uncle_J_Wick
I created a summary for all posts:
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I use fighters for cas so lmao
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Please no more CAS threads! I’m going insane! There is already a thread for this. We don’t need 7 more!
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And who’s gonna capture the points?
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Actually thread deals with the addition of spawning aircraft as first spawn in the combined arms mode called Ground RB to perform CAP duties.
Your might want to read this and you may realize that the OP is trying to improve the game play regarding realistic battle scenarios as CAP and CAS are completely different things regarding impact on Ground Forces:
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First spawn US fighters and proceed to delete half the enemy team with your 12.7s. Or USSR and their 20mms
From my pov it is a matter of smart design:
You make a good point. I still maintain that this should sit in the primary CAS thread, but I completely understand why it is in its own thread. Truthfully, I’ve just seen so many damn CAS threads today that by the time I saw yet another, I didn’t even bother fully reading it which is entirely my fault.
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Giving players a quicker punishment than teamkilling, teamkilling kicks after 2 kills, for attacking enemies is awful.
Would 100% end up getting horrible bugs. Plus would make no sense to have enemies be immune to damage. The current spawn protection is probably the limit to that kind of mechanic.
I would prefer if the damage ping was removed completely for planes and added the uav system where planes can ping areas. Just give it a decent cooldown
No problem. Same here.
Imho most of the participants feel the same - so the missing consolidation of identical threads prevents to distinguish between similar content (=Aircraft in Ground modes) and different tasks & roles (CAP vs CAS, BAI & AI).
The main difference are area of interactions for attackers and defenders.
CAP has to fight:
- CAS = immediate treat for own Ground units
- BAI = short term threat (=incoming reinforcements out of combat range)
- AI = mid term threat for supply lines, airfields, bridges
And wt still uses Korea war terms and game play set up - whilst offering 4th gen aircraft - that does not fit together.
A small table:
Have a good one!
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This is the main reason for discussions - to collect different views on the same topic in order to find a sound solution.
So if you are not happy with an auto kick - gaijin has to find a way to solve such an obstacle properly…
Easily solved by not allowing first spawn aircraft. This should extend to helis too. Fighters are much cheaper to spawn than cas so fighters should already be up prior to cas arriving.
Main change needed for cas is for load out sp costs to be itemised. Each bomb/rocket/missile should cost sp. Current system is basiclly “1 gbu=120sp and 6gbu=120sp”. It should be “1gbu=60sp and 6gbu=360sp”.
Not sure what the exact cost should be but this system would lower the average amount that cas carries into battles as well as providing more use to munitions that get looked over.
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You can try to spawn with helicopters that have access to the AAMs to prevent some CAS. You can spawn at first with them. Most of them has IRCCM tho. if you are talking about lower BRs than helis, then there is an even cheaper option, use some SPAA, they are purely made for this situation. Give them a bit of reason to get played, other than being TD, like ZSU-57-2 or the Lvkv.
I am using this unknown power at lower BRs, like there is more than 6 planes on US side, then I am showing up with SPAA, cuz no one in our team would. Then I suddenly have 5 air kills. the other one more likely to chose to be pancaked on the ground.
My secret sauce is FlakPanzer 341 aka Coelian. its nice to have a roof on a low br spaa tbh.
The key word here is “should”.
Imho this quote followed by your additional comment describes quite precisely the dilemma situation of wt:
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Experienced players tend to oversimplify certain aspects of the game as their experience advantage made them “battle-hardened” as they see things more sober and are able to adopt.
vs
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Less experienced players tend to base their decision making process on quick wins following the reward scheme set by gaijin unable to make the right tactical or strategic decision within the games or whi,lst playing wt in general.
So whilst you are working on optimizing the already existing game layout, the overwhelming majority of players is trapped in the circle of “live, die, repeat” and has not the experience to come to the right conclusions at the “right” point in time.
The question therefore is if you are happy if you see the current set-up of the combined arms mode or not - and have you arranged yourself with this cycle:
Imho you see in all modes except SB that the experienced players see that actual skill become less important - gaijin tries with map designs, lobby population, game mechanics, etc to reduce requirements like skill, tactics & strategy in oder to please the majority of rookie players.
In contrast experienced players try to add complexity layers (like your example of adjusting SP) which contradicts gaijins’ way of thinking.
So adding a few slots for CAP duties would add a more realistic experience and won’t affect the game play by taking something away - it makes no difference for the outcome if you add realistic air battle scenarios as you would still see 60% of your team at the bottom of the leader board (with 0 game impact) but it would increase the options to participate.
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As outlined earlier and seen in countless other threads CAS aircraft fulfill the role of a “power-up” - lowering the skill floor to get ground kills due to their conceptual advantage based on the way they are implemented.
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And there is technically seen nothing wrong with this approach as almost every shooter follows this logic: Getting an advantage in order to leverage their game impact - or just to increase the number of kills.
Even if the OP is unable to change his wording (as requested in this post) he is at least correct regarding the flaw within this set-up:
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WT is trapped in this unrealistic cycle and the game play is far from being realistic as it is stuck somewhere between 1940 and 1950.
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Modern combined arms warfare works completely different and foresees a battle of air superiority in parallel at worst and upfront at best - and is based on eliminating enemy air defenses in order to allow own CAS to have an impact.
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If you watched some of the vids the fellow player @ULQ_LOVER has published in the last years or just recent months, the air superiority part is mostly totally absent as the majority of less experienced players is simply unable to come to the right conclusions - in a match and whilst playing wt in general.
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And therefore the underlying idea (at least how i see things) of a first spawn in an aircraft (without A2G impact) has not the goal to prevent experienced players to leverage their experience advantage with CAS - it is aimed to increase realism and to prevent a further deterioration of combined arms warfare.
Have a good one!
First spawning fighters is a terrible idea.
CAS isn’t even allowed first spawn so it’s not even necessary.
Also other topics already exist.
Fighters have to cost more than the SP you get at the start.
And CAS has to be more expensive [it is].
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