Allow first spawn of fighters to intercept CAS

[Vamilad]

The ability to immediately spawn a fighter would prevent the falsehood that “Ground Realistic” is “Ground Realistic” rather than “Air Realistic”.

Players who are inclined to use aircraft would have the ability to immediately do so while those interested in playing ground will have the same option they do now.

This would also help counter helicopter rocket rushing further than it already is.

The singular negative are against fighters with heavy cannons as they would be able to strafe tanks, but this is already a problem that immediately is presented after ~60 seconds of battle. At least with this proposed system there would be a considerable counter to such CAS minded pilots on top of the SPAA they already deal with.

[JuicyKuuuuki]

@Vamilad

The ability to immediately spawn a fighter would prevent the falsehood that “Ground Realistic” is “Ground Realistic” rather than “Air Realistic”.

[PointyPuffin]

This should be part of a CAS topic…

[Vamilad]

Yes. Both Ground and Aviation. Why separate spawns to make this falsehood of “ground” rather than allowing full combined arms from the beginning?

[Vamilad]

This is a CAS topic, what are you confused by?

[PointyPuffin]

I am not confused. This should be a post in an already existing CAS topic…

[Vamilad]

@rubberywolfbias

fighers are cas too cus they have guns, terrible argument

Yes excluding that they are already able to be spawned within ~60 seconds. I would rather sacrifice those 60 seconds of grace period for the chance of air dominance.

[rubberywolfbias]

helicopters have SOME counters with ifv’s with irst, anything with proxy and SOME missiles but like cas in planes is sorta always gonna be horrendous

[Dodo_Dud]

One could include rules of engagement: If you spawn a CAP fighter at the start, it will not see tanks.

It may see SPAA perhaps, it may see tanks after x minutes without enemy plane, whatever.

But it should be technically possible to prevent such a plane from attacking poor tank fellows.

[Vamilad]

It’s not necessary as Gaijin is capable of tweaking the spawn points of plane type so that interceptors could be first spawned while CAS is still restricted to requiring some amount of spawn points.

[Dodo_Dud]

An interceptor can attack ground right away. I don’t think that is the idea of an early CAP.

[llSolitairell]

@Vamilad

The ability to immediately spawn a fighter would prevent the falsehood that “Ground Realistic” is “Ground Realistic” rather than “Air Realistic”.

Wouldn’t that make it more like Air Realistic not less?

[Vamilad]

The game mode is already more like Air Realistic than a “ground” game mode.

This at least removes the peeling veneer.

[Burgermankillz]

terrible idea.

so basically nobody would plays tanks and the match is decided by air in the first minute.
yea no thanks

[Vamilad]

@Burgermankillz

the match is decided by air in the first minute

Versus the current method of deciding the match after the first minute?

CAS is equally strong in both situations in one you have a chance of your team intercepting them.

[CoffeeBean100]

Too hard to scroll maybe.

If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

Whenever a CAS thread pops up on this forum, there is almost always someone who will state with authority that Gaijin will never allow an alternative mode without CAS, and instead, suggests that the player asks for CAS to be re-balanced instead, with minor adjustments made somewhere. Whether you frequently use CAS aircraft in Ground Battles or not, I must ask in good faith, how would you re-balance CAS as it exists now? What would you change? What would you consider to be too much, what would b…

[Vamilad]

If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

CAS at 5.0 - 8.0 should be disabled. It is too strong for the current game mechanics which do not allow interception of CAS before they’re over the battlefield. Interception would help to balance the mechanic without removing it.

[Burgermankillz]

people would simply leave after loosing the initial air battle.

so i rather have at least 2 minutes of tank battles than 0 minutes of tank battles.

[Vamilad]

@Burgermankillz

people would simply leave after loosing the initial air battle.

People already leave now once there are multiple CAS vehicles active.

SPAA would still be an option.

@Burgermankillz

so i rather have at least 2 minutes of tank battles than 0 minutes of tank battles.

60 seconds assuming you’re not at a BR where you face heli rushers.

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@Vamilad

Players who are inclined to use aircraft would have the ability to immediately do so while those interested in playing ground will have the same option they do now.

From a pure marketing perspective you might rethink you general wording of your OP and the title of this thread.

1. Your main goal is to increase the realism of the combined arms mode to enhance the realistic game play experience of this mode.

2. Real combined arms foresees a battle of air superiority above the battlefield. The overall goal of Combat Air Patrol (CAP) is to protect own Ground units vs threats from enemy Close Air Support (CAS), enemy Air Indictors (AI - also known as DAS = Deep Air Support) and/or to protect own CAS and AIs.

3. By pure definition a CAP mission can only be fulfilled if CAP aircraft arrive before enemy CAS is over the front line. That’s the main reason why CAP aircraft need a first spawn possibility.

4. The current set up for wt Ground RB makes this impossible and should be adjusted to reflect the battle of combined arms way more realistic than today.

I wrote some time ago a summary for this first spawn in an aircraft idea:

After watching several hundreds of vids and replays of Ground RB in the last 7 years the majority of matches follow the same rules: Rush a cap, earn SP for a CAS plane, die and farm Ground units or kill clueless pilots tunnel visioning on revenge bombing or ground attack in general.

If you would implement a first spawn in an aircraft without any A2G load like bombs or rockets, add markers for A2A combat (so no ground unit markers) and ensure that they attack only enemy aircraft (so playing anti-CAS or just cover own CAS) you would have way less issues with balancing CAS vs tanks.

Most valid arguments against such a proposal:

1. Planes with cannons and HMGs are still a massive threat for open top / light vehicles
2. Pilots have their own mode, why should they be allowed to play Ground RB without playing tanks
3. First spawn planes will reduce the number of available ground units for capturing and holding points. Very long and very tight matches (imho rather rare) are usually decided by tanks as they ensure ticket wins with holding / defending points.

Can be countered with:

1. Simply kick them out of the lobby if they attack anything else than enemy aircraft (including choppers) or SPAAs (for self-defense). If you won’t want to kick them out: Disable damage of cannons/HMGs and map pinging in case they want to mark them.
2. Air RB is flooded with tankers which perform actually useless tasks like base bombing or farming ai units. They are playing PvE in a TDM game mode with severe impact on the outcome of matches - basically the team with less tankers wins. By allowing dedicated pilots to defend own ground units in Ground RB dedicated tankers could focus on the ground battle.
3. Just limit the number of first spawn planes (2-4 based on lobby size) and allow them to load ground loadouts and to attack other targets as outlined in point 1 after 15 (?) minutes or earlier if just a few players are left.

Summary:

I follow this CAS issue and connected points like ODLs for years now from a pure pilot perspective. It is obvious that gaijin is aware of this, but despite hundreds of threads and thousands of posts i see not substantial changes in their game design.

So from a holistic pov gaijin assesses the current situation as fine. Any attempts to weaken planes in Ground RB or to convince them to implement TO modes are a dead end as they would have a severe impact on their earnings. I mean Ground RB players are forced to buy planes to defend their tanks - so why would they change anything?

This summary is the very short version of series of posts i wrote regarding this topic - dealing with topics like:

Why do you need better pilots in Ground RB
Why a few slots for first spawn aircraft makes sense

Postings:

I posted last year (First spawn without A2G payload).

Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #4 by Uncle_J_Wick

The usual counter argument is: Why do we need good pilots in Ground RB:

Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #45 by Uncle_J_Wick

The next counter argument is usually - those guys with first spawn planes reduce out team size - less tanks means less caps = more defeats - combined with: “Cannons kill tanks too!” - easy solution: Disable damage on Ground units for a certain time, allow just damage/kills on SPAAs for self defense:

Idea to solve CAS problem in RB - #52 by Uncle_J_Wick

I created a summary for all posts:

Suggestion for planes in GRB - #33 by Uncle_J_Wick