Airfield AAA Discussion Thread - Air Realistic Battles

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@BlackberryAvar

You should run for office

Impossible - too many skeletons in the closet…

@BlackberryAvar

“Just groundpound bro.”

No, exactly not. Either you missed me by accident or on purpose - or i was not clear enough.

• The main point of my example was to show a calculated decision on my part.

• I had alt advantage vs both opponents after 12 minutes - but both enemies have way superior speed and climb. So if i would have attacked the higher one in one or two passes, i would have lost my energy advantage very soon. The main disadvantage of flying with joystick is the lack of accuracy vs mouse aim - so in order to hit something i have to make them slow = enforce an energy/stall fight.

• Energy fighting vs two coordinated 190 Ds in a SM 92 works only if they are absolutely clueless - but both enemies knew what their planes are capable of.

• If one would have gone low i would have killed the higher one and the lower guy later - if both would have went low and covered each other it would might have been interesting.

• But they made the wrong decision in climbing after me despite i flew away from them - assuming that they can equalize my advantage quite soon - it took 3 minutes.

@BlackberryAvar

If I can die, I can be in another game in five minutes.

@BlackberryAvar

I prefer not dying

What is it?

@BlackberryAvar

Asking for removal / nerf of airfield AA is because it makes the gameplay less fun

Fun is relative - transferring your understanding of fun to others is not really an argument.

@BlackberryAvar

because I like a challenge.

Where is the challenge?

If you have fun clubbing rookies in a meta plane with 85 days fighter experience - be my guest. But: I see a challenge in fighting with a non-meta plane vs better performing aircraft to level the playing field.

@BlackberryAvar

I consider airfield camping to be wrong and most skilled players do too, which is why in the skilled player community the AF campers never want to reveal that they camped base for their stats.

What skill? Clubbing rookies and farming weaker plane classes? You fly fighters to increase your kill numbers (=stats) and prefer not dying (=stats). If you try to measure skill - look for players performing well in a S-199. Everything else is is just not worth to talk about.

@BlackberryAvar

Do you consider airfield AA a problem, or not?

To a certain degree: Yes.

The very weak af aaa around 4 years ago enforced players to improve or die, so a weak af aaa is from a holistic pov a benefit for the game play.

But:

1. WT is not the same game like 4 years ago - and Air RB is a mess compared to 2019.
2. The chances to meet skilled opponents in a match is around 5-20%. So clubbing such rookie players like in the video above (post #646) was the exception.
3. Following the idea that a removal of af aaa would stop the sheer masses of untrained pilots flooding Air RB to grind (without enjoying the mode) is an illusion.
4. The game mode became Air AB+ and nothing will change the demands of the “new” player generation (“instant action” and “grind”) and pandora’s box is open, if you like it or not.
5. Any attempts to turn back the clock are futile - just look at the poll for the base respawn timer - there is no way that gaijin would discourage those players with making Air RB less attractive for grinders.

@BlackberryAvar

Wishy-washy essay length posts

First of all - my post was addressed to a newer player without having the insight in a lot of things - so it got longer than expected.

Second - you are not forced to read them or reply to them.

@BlackberryAvar

…and when taken to the extreme it results in meta-plane 4-man base camping squads that RTB whenever they feel they are in the slightest danger of ruining their KD.

Agreed, met 6th Army and Co. a few times.

@dоt

@Suprā

Kinda sad you don’t see the obvious fun in watching people AF camp for 5 minutes and wait for AI planes to win the game for them smh my head!!!

I already feel super engaged just thinking about it.

The original post was misleading:

1. The game ends in props with fulfilling win conditions. Even without ai plane interference i had 2.200 points ticket lead.
2. So you might argue that my 2 opponents have lost the match due to wrong decision making - or i won as i survived. I mean - circling above my af at 6-7 km alt and doing nothing and losing by tickets - or waiting 5 minutes low for win is a large difference.
3. Fun is a personal thing. Some people might have fun clubbing rookies.

@dоt

It was better when all guns could clear ground targets (tanks and all).

Seriously? Killing an ai Tiger or Sherman with a singe HE shell with less TNT than a hand grenade? It took gaijin ages to realize that they messed this up.

@dоt

You could just FORCE these people to come out of the AF bubble and force their hand that they have to engage you or lose.

You refuse to accept that prop Air RB is not a TDM mode - even if most matches are decided this way. In addition - ticket leads don’t fall from the sky - some player actions caused them.

@dоt

It’s very damn sad that when you have to deal with a camper I need to put myself in a shit position, and KEEP that position long enough so he sticks the fight and doesn’t just turn around to AF again after 1 pass.

Although i share your concerns and see this similar critical - no pure TDM mode.

@dоt

Gameplay got infinitely better now that forward AF AA is gone, but don’t stop there.

As written in posts #512 & 658, i fully agree to the first part, the second part might be something for the future, but only if gaijin would deliberately decide to accept the shit storm of the pure grinder community.

By the way - you might want to avoid to fly low near enemy mini bases - on some maps gaijin buffed the aaa defending those bases - they snipe even Wyverns - i collected some affected maps here: Link. They are so deadly that you should even avoid attacking enemies near your own mini bases, i got killed on Laizihou by own midmap aaa whilst performing a BnZ attack on a Pe-2…

@Night_Trapper

And by the way … I enjoy opinions on team play here in the game…
This game does not support team play at all, everyone plays only for themselves and during the battle everyone can decide if it is currently more advantageous to join forces with several other players or to play solo.

Exactly!

[BlackberryAvar]

@Uncle_J_Wick

Where is the challenge?

If you have fun clubbing rookies in a meta plane with 85 days fighter experience - be my guest. But: I see a challenge in fighting with a non-meta plane vs better performing aircraft to level the playing field.

Playing a non-meta vehicle does not excuse going back to the base. If it’s about skill and the challenge, then you can win in non-meta planes if the enemy makes mistakes and you play it well enough. If not, then you get to go to the next one. Dying more is the consequence of playing a plane that’s not meant to be a fighter.

If I wanted better KD, I could be 4-man squadding or running to base all the time. If I wanted better KD, I could be playing exclusively the meta top-to-bottom way. If I wanted to be top on the KB leaderboards, I would be playing low-tier sealclubbers like the MiG-3.

When you have as much experience as I do, you cannot fly decent props without looking like you are sealclubbing. I want to play WWII vehicles and I use my stats as a measure of self-improvement. If you want to see where I play non-meta vehicles in air RB look at my stat card and search for Me 410.

@Uncle_J_Wick

• WT is not the same game like 4 years ago - and Air RB is a mess compared to 2019.
• The chances to meet skilled opponents in a match is around 5-20%. So clubbing such rookie players like in the video above (post #646) was the exception.
• Following the idea that a removal of af aaa would stop the sheer masses of untrained pilots flooding Air RB to grind (without enjoying the mode) is an illusion.
• The game mode became Air AB+ and nothing will change the demands of the “new” player generation (“instant action” and “grind”) and pandora’s box is open, if you like it or not.
• Any attempts to turn back the clock are futile - just look at the poll for the base respawn timer - there is no way that gaijin would discourage those players with making Air RB less attractive for grinders.

Air RB has not fundamentally changed in 4 years. We all spawn in with a few planes getting airspawn and the fighters starting on the ground. There’s a max of 4 bombers per team, and the match outcome is usually decided by who wins in PvP.

Gaijin has changed a lot of window dressing but the basics stayed the same. So, airfield AA is the same problem that it was 4 years ago. We will always have rookies, that is fine. But giving them an easy way to save their planes without increasing skill level is a problem. Those rookies are going to stay rookies and they’ll keep getting clubbed if they can’t get back to base AA in time.

Repair costs should still be high, but rewards should be high as well. Also, win bonus needs to be increased again. When you are penalized for losing and rewarded heavily for winning, of course you want to win more.

Currently there is no good reason why a newer player shouldn’t just pick a plane with lots of guns and go full commit in the furball every match.

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@BlackberryAvar

Playing a non-meta vehicle does not excuse going back to the base.

Nobody is looking fore excuses. I used a game mechanic (like plane choice, choosing mouse or joystick, etc.) which allowed me (together) with ticket advantage to win the match without any risk.

@BlackberryAvar

When you have as much experience as I do, you cannot fly decent props without looking like you are sealclubbing.

I have an old inactive account with 114 days as fighter, 73 days as bomber and 26 days as strike fighter - in 196 aircraft. Gaijin refused to transfer the stats and planes, so i started again from zero (ofc without all premium and event planes like AU-1 or BI) but i felt the need to avoid pure fighters even before.

@BlackberryAvar

I want to play WWII vehicles and I use my stats as a measure of self-improvement.

Individual goals are personal things. Nobody cares about stats because they are only relevant for you - and if you see this as a pure shooter and play for competitive reasons. I fly props only because i also like WW 2 - but there is no need to justify individual preferences. But you might agree that kills became much easier than 4 years ago.

@BlackberryAvar

Air RB has not fundamentally changed in 4 years.

Imho i was not clear enough:

1. The main change is the massive deterioration of the average player skill.
2. A few years ago you needed skill to participate in Air RB, today it looks like all you need is a premium plane.
3. The majority of current matches are decided by quantity, not quality. There is a clear lack (often a total absence) of anything related to tactic or strategy.

But also the setup of Air RB changed a lot:

• Axis vs Allies (still in place at certain brackets) was at the end boring like hell.

• Flying GER or IT:
  Either you searched the whole Norway map to find a B-29 at 10 km alt or you lost by tickets due to a P-47 being at the same alt. And you lost by tickets as AD-2s & AD-4s farmed pillboxes early game and you were unable to kill tanks & pillboxes with GER/IT hardware. And ofc you had often 6-8 Spits coming in very high and exact in this match you had just 1 or 2 109s and the rest 190s…

• If you wanted a challenge you were forced to fly US planes.
  Against JP with stuff like the P-51 D-30 - just to play 1 vs 8 after a few minutes and having 3 J2M2s behind you and 5 A6Ms below and behind you - for one hour.
  And vs Germans you had a similar effect - there was always a 109 above you and it took ages to neutralize their initial climb advantage.

• There were just a few air spawn planes on both teams. A fellow player posted somewhere else a replay showing his team with 8 air spawn fighters (4 x XP-50, 2 x P-61, 2 x these French VB interceptors) vs 2 enemy air spawn fighters (2 x Bf 110)…

• There were no “no-WW2” nations like Israel or Sweden active, whilst the best Swedish props (PM-1 and B-18B) are actually post-war aircraft.

• There were not so many c+p maps (regarding layout) like today - Norway was just amazing as soon as both teams had air spawn.

• There were no hordes of PvE /PvP players in Wyverns ( i have seen 10 in a single match) either farming enemy PvE players or bombing all bases foreseen for actual bombers.

• There were just a few Pacific maps and the “old” Berlin map with ai planes - either denying you sneak attacks or just cluttering the map. Today you are enforced to kill them after the first wave in order to avoid ticket defeats in close matches - like on Tunisia.

• You could actually lose matches due to your airfield getting killed.

• 16 vs 16 just increased these effects, the majority of your matches are decided after 8-12 minutes: 8 vs 2 or 2 vs 8 - choose your poison.

@BlackberryAvar

Repair costs should still be high, but rewards should be high as well. Also, win bonus needs to be increased again. When you are penalized for losing and rewarded heavily for winning, of course you want to win more.

Currently there is no good reason why a newer player shouldn’t just pick a plane with lots of guns and go full commit in the furball every match.

Fully agree to the first part, the second view looks suited for speed grinders, but a new player trying to master the game should rather try to learn to stay alive. The majority of RP income requires to stay alive as long as possible.

[BlackberryAvar]

Well, the people in premium planes are willing to fight for the most part. Over-enthusiasm can be fixed.

I find airfield AA to be unsportsmanlike because it’s a cheap way of keeping the enemy team from getting the kill despite the advantages that they worked for to get. There is no way to defeat a determined airfield camper with teamwork, no way to land a satisfying shot from 2km while being mowed down by a hitscan death field.

We’re in a team-based fighting game and AA allows you to deny the enemy’s teamwork and not fight.

I agree that the way the game is played has changed in the last 4 years, but that doesn’t change the fact that Airfield AA is objectionable.

[dоt]

@BlackberryAvar

objectionable

What a soft word to use, why not end 2023 with a banger.

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@BlackberryAvar

I find airfield AA to be unsportsmanlike

No offense, but “sportsmanship” would require fights on equal terms, so fights vs equally skilled opponents using the same hardware whilst playing the game with the same goals - you find none of that in wt.

@BlackberryAvar

We’re in a team-based fighting game

As written earlier - just an illusion. Imho a fellow player nailed it:

@dоt

WT, while trying to be, isn’t a team game; the game objectives aren’t aligned, there’s no proper communication system, there are no team goals if you want a high win rate. Team mates are random, may or may not help you and even so, may not pick the right target because you cannot communicate properly in this game. This is a single player game for all intends and purposes unfortunately.

Finally:

@BlackberryAvar

I agree that the way the game is played has changed in the last 4 years, but that doesn’t change the fact that Airfield AA is objectionable.

Fine for me. Have a happy new year!

[Xeno2112]

I think Airfield AAA needs to be there as a discouragement, but it needs to also be defeatable. Not too easy, not too hard. Find the right balance and you will please the greatest number of players.

[NestleKitkat]

Thats how old AA works in Jet RB match.

[dоt]

That’s how it was, then Gaijin was like “Nah, death lasers is much funny” and it has been since.

[Loofah]

The best discouragement is teamplay.
If all of.your team is damaged/no ammo and enemy is nearing the airfield, maybe, just maybe, mistakes have been made and the game should end.

[GNDM_Panzer]

Joke statement.

There is no teamplay outside of pre-made squads.

[Loofah]

OK, so why even continue the game if enemy has enough of an advantage to strafe the airfield with impunity?
Either way, it’s GG, time to start another match.

[GNDM_Panzer]

Simple.

Spite.

Sure, you could just land and J out and move on.

Or, you could sit in the AF bubble and spite the enemy by dragging the match out even if you’re losing. Alternatively if your team - being the potential gaggle of idiots they are - won ticket lead by PTFO because they have enough braincells to understand that there’s more than one way to win, then it’s on the enemy team - potential gaggle of idiots they may be - to either get their shit together and start to PTFO to close the gap, or refuse to and lose while you’re just chilling.

An enemy plane sitting on AF means they’re in no position to challenge you as you PTFO, especially if your gaggleshit team has numerical advantage. There’s no excuse for teams to lose by not PTFO’ing because refusing to do so is sheer stupidity.

ARB.
Is.
Not.
Team.
Deathmatch.

[BlackberryAvar]

@GNDM_Panzer

Simple.

Spite.

Spite is a sour trait that endears the trait-holder to no one.

@GNDM_Panzer

An enemy plane sitting on AF means they’re in no position to challenge you as you PTFO, especially if your gaggleshit team has numerical advantage. There’s no excuse for teams to lose by not PTFO’ing because refusing to do so is sheer stupidity.

Here is the exact same scenario stated a different way. We have won the teamfight in the middle by a landslide, but now because one guy refuses to accept the match results we must all wait for him to engage us - if he doesn’t then there is nothing we can do. We cannot end the match on tickets because some maps are dominated by medium tanks that can’t be killed by most fighters. If there are eight of us on one side, and one of him, every 7 and a half minutes he wastes is an entire man-hour that the rest of us could be using to have fun.

@GNDM_Panzer

ARB.
Is.
Not.
Team.
Deathmatch.

It is TDM if there is no way to win on tickets in a reasonable time frame.

Not to mention that if it’s a closer situation like 1 vs 2, whoever runs to airfield can win the game easily if one guy goes RTB and 1 groundpounds - camper shows up with massive energy advantage and kills the groundpounder without contest. Then he can bait the last guy into airfield AA or defeat him with the energy he got because of base AA protection.

[GNDM_Panzer]

1. Depends on who you ask.

2. Copout argument because many fighters on all nations can carry bomb loads that can destroy a tank, provided you don’t miss. If you’re stock then you’re simply SoL. Can’t win them all.

3. Copout argument based on the duo making poor choices by not committing at least 1 plane to minding the enemy. Does happen though because lots of WT players are just tactically unaware. Again, can’t win them all.

[Ub3rshadow]

@GNDM_Panzer

Copout argument because many fighters on all nations can carry bomb loads that can destroy a tank

Mfw someone expects my Merlin spitfire with either no bomb or one poxy 250lb to destroy entire convoys to reverse a ticket advantage a couple of attackers got in the first few minutes uncontested. Your argument is the copout here.

[dоt]

What kind of poor take is that, you wipe enemy team on Tunisia, but they have ticket advantage and last dude doing NASCAR larping on the AF … and you have to kill heavy tanks with your Spitfire. Can’t even RTB for bombs because tickets drain very fast on most maps and you don’t have time for a 6 minute round trip. You lost with outnumbering the enemy 10:1 and 6+ kills ONLY because he’s protected by the AA bubble of instant death.

AF AA can fuck right off in my humble opinion. Ticket drain should also be strictly player induced, not artificially imposed by crappy AI.

You know, there are also certain players putting a 90%+ winrate by abusing AA and AI, doing this solo. They bombs specific ground units that will win them the game, RTB, and fly around AF for a guaranteed win. Zero effort… just rush those units before enemy gets there due to airspawn, retreat, profit. They don’t even have to kill anyone of the enemy team to do this.

FANTASTIC GAME DESIGN BRO.

[NestleKitkat]

Another problem with some maps is that ticket bleeding is not fair, as in [Operation] City like this screenshot.

I was on the north team there, flying a MiG-17 for 25 minutes AFK, and even though we were literally not ground pounding, the north side tickets were bleeding much faster than the south one. And while my team AI was an A-4B, the south side AI is Yak-38M that is much faster, and it is impossible for some aircraft such as Ki-200/Me 163, Me 262 C-2b etc to even keep up with them.

I would say [Operation]City should get replaced to [Operation] Korea that was one of best map in Jet RB match but, that’s never happen because people love “dogfighing” in the city.

Anyway, this is just ridiculous.

[NestleKitkat]

Well, apparently literally every map with AI has this problem.

What a epic game lmao

[Suprā]

Yep. Operation City is one of the worst maps when it comes to AI ticket bleed. It’s funny how not even the AI is balanced (killing AI Yak-38s vs AI A-4s or Sabres). AI ticket bleed is one of the worst mechanics in Air RB currently and I can’t wait for it to either be revised or removed so real players have to drain tickets.