I did. Which is why I ask. You do realise that the current economy rewards losing almost as much as winning right? Due to a horrible player convincing the majority of the other horrible players that they will NEVER be good enough to consistently win, and thus voting so losing would give more rewards and winning less.
A model where losing gets less rewards than now would literally increase competitiveness, because there would be a larger difference between winning and losing and thus a larger incentive to win. This is basic logic. Once again, what team is so stacked against the other that it would be impossible to win. You can also just keep dodging the main questions like you did now though, as there isn’t any team that is overwhelmingly stacked against the other.
Google doc screenshots for sake of "i wont click random links."
Key take-away:
Win: Play time x activity x coefficient x RP multiplier x 2
Defeat : Play time x activity x coefficient x RP multiplier x 1.34
What do we observe looking at the screenshots and the above formula?
The game significantly rewards staying alive without respawning and maintaining ~1500 RP/15 minutes in ARB perspective (and something comparable for GRB).
Staying alive until end of match , getting 9 kills for Skill Bonus (or 4 for air RB) and winning is where the bulk of your income comes from. Rather notably, as one can see from the formula - skill bonus is multiplicative with win/loss. To claim " “rewards losing as much as winning” is to be grossly uninformed on how the rewards system works. Now, it is true that the way the economy works and the way probabilities stack up (can you get a 70 to 90% activity on a second respawn 5 minutes in? 10 minutes in? 15 minutes in? 20 minutes in?), there are scenarios where respawning to try and force a match win provides lesser rewards than ODLing and going next without risking a low activity period due to how much of your RP gain/battle it makes up (1 kill is worth 47 RP in RB, plus change for crits/hits. That’s equivalent to staying alive for 50 seconds at 100% activity if you lose the match, 33 seconds if you win)
The only game mode where winning/losing THE MATCH makes no significant difference is in air simulator battles, as you only get a small SL bonus for winning with no change to RP gain. This makes sense given ASB is rewarded in a 15 minute cycle and you can join/leave ongoing matches without limitation. On the flipside, as you pay silver lions to spawn (not repair), and you only receive 80% of the reward for surviving the full 15 minute cycle and must return and land to gain full reward - ASB massively enforces winning to maintain a positive silver lion income… but also shafts winning very hard (2 kills is worth the same as 8 kills due to being paid by the minute rather than individual actions). This has the nasty consequence that you have dead BR brackets where spawn cost is 18k, max possible reward is 19.7k - meaning you need to survive and get 2 kills/15 minutes twice (30 minutes) and land both times to afford to respawn a second time. This occurs at 7.0-8.0 with likes of horten, shooting star and meteors.
I will concede that if you have a premium account, the skill bonus’s benefit is significantly reduced as the 100% acts on the base income rather than premium income, leading to scenarios where it only increases your total reward by a measly amount (something like 1/4? I cant remember how shafted you get) if using both a premium vehicle and a premium account.
Looking at the aforementioned 7.0-8.0 dead BR zone in SB. Do you know what happens?
People spawn in their planes and are in -18K SL in debt. You have people fly to objectives and compete. It’s a 3 hour game mode with respawns.
One side beats the other. The winning side has barely offset their debt. The other side now asks the question: Do I double my debt, or do I quit and go to next lobby hoping the enemies are worse than me?
The losing side makes the logical choice (not double their debt) and now the lobby is dead without enemies to fight with.
That’s the outcome you desire.
At prop BRs where spawn cost is 3K and max income is ~9K, or even spawn cost of 10K and max income of 18K or so - this occurs less consistently. Statpadders will still ditch lobbies if the enemy can threaten them, but others will stay and fight to the bitter end (or exhaustion/boredom. Or the teams got too unbalanced and you’ve no desire to fight 6 vs 12) and there’s actual competition and a chance at improving your piloting.
Turns out, where losing doesn’t punish you as much, people stay in the game and fight to improve and it’s actually competitive rather than “stomp once and enemies give up.”
Tell me how a comet can kill a yak-9k or a F4U-4.
Tell me how a centurion Mk 3 can kill a P-51H.
For planes, you can pick 2 fighters within a 1.0 BR step (that aren’t seriously under/over-tiered) and find a legitimate way to force a victory for one side. Maybe it’s something boring and requires strict discipline like “BnZ the japs in your mustang and keep your energy high at all times.” Maybe it’s something more fun like “spiral climb the spitfire in your messerschmitt” or “drag the yak into a spiral descent in your hellcat” or force one-circle/two-circle. There’s a plethora of options, some more fun than others, some easier than others but they exist.
Tell me how a comet can kill a yak-9k or a F4U-4.
Tell me how a centurion Mk 3 can kill a P-51H.
Even if the F4U-4 has massive skill issues, you’re not killing it in your comet. Okay, maybe if the F4U-4 decides to land in an open field or flies with gear & flaps out at 100 meters altitude. Just for sake of covering all bases - yes, there exist scenarios where a tank can get kill credit on a plane but those scenarios are rather contrived and more of a freak accident.
You grind planes by playing AAB/ARB/ASB. Planes use entirely different controls and playstyle to tanks. To expect players to play planes is absurd. Even if someone really enjoys playing planes, maybe they don’t enjoy the same bracket as they play tanks in or maybe they don’t enjoy the game mode (either they only want to play planes in arcade or sim but like GRB for tanks (or play GRB because GSB doesn’t let you play whatever tank whenever)).
Expecting plane use when you want to use a tank is a non-justified argument.
And Expecting SPAA per…
This requires teamwork.
Which requires role queue (in Dota 2, I queue for pos 5 and my team is guaranteed to have a hard support. I queue for pos 1 and my team is guaranteed to have a hard carry and so forth.).
We have no such thing for Warthunder.
Teamwork also requires SBMM. Imagine trying to play Dota as at 3K MMR equivalent when your pos 1 is at 1500 MMR equivalent. Or imagine trying to play Dota at 3K MMR equivalent when the enemy pos 3 is a 6000 equivalent.
You can’t.
Using SPAA to hit planes is significantly harder than planes to hit planes.
SPAA are on a 2D plane shooting at a vehicle in a 3D plane. SPAA are stationary, planes fly at 350-550 km/h at prop tiers. SPAA are always shooting with significant altitude difference. Planes don’t.
In a plane, you can neutralize speed differences with maneuvering and aligning your fuselage with the enemy plane’s and getting on their six. In a plane, you’re almost always shooting at the same altitude. In a plane you control your distance for shooting. And in SB, in a plane you have gunsights that tell you how much to lead and give an estimation of distance. Oh, and in planes you have vertical targettting and convergence that allow you to put the enemy dead-center of your gunsight, pull the trigger and boom goes the yak/ki-84 even if you’re using the fridge launcher.
OK. yeah, I mean that’s true, since you get 100% more RP and 50% more SL for winning, I think. But here’s the catch: If you want a game that only rewards the winner, then the grind will be 5-60% harder since you will get NO RP and SL for losing. AND there will be more no-skill premiums that pays to near-garauntee a win (since Gaijin will add OP stuff IF that’s how the game works).
Don’t assume I don’t know how the economy works. I don’t need an explanation from you. The multiplier for winning was higher, and for losing lower. This was changed due to SpanishAvenger’s idiotic arguments of “because I struggle to win, I should be rewarded more for my losses as I do not want to improve to win more regularly”
I never claimed that losing gives you as much as winning, but comparing rewards from a few years ago to now it’s exceptionally clear what the result is and why I stated that losing gives almost as much rewards as winning. While that may have been exaggerated I still NEVER claimed that losing gives the same rewards as winning.
A large part of your argument is about sim battles, which is the least played game mode in game and not really relevant. I was not referring to sb, as I do not care about it because it has gotten zero attention and is really only worth playing in air events to quickly finish a star.
Where I talked about both sides, I meant both TEAMS. I am unsure how this was not clear. Once again I am focusing on relevant modes, grb in this case as this is what most people play. There are two teams. Both have equal chances of winning in theory. I am going to ignore the entire paragraph as you evidently misunderstood my words.
You grind planes by using ANY game mode where planes are available in, not just air battles. Get your facts right. It isn’t absurd to expect people to play planes in a mode with them in it, especially a mode like grb where planes picked by the player are so crucial to winning due to a variety of factors.
For winning games, you need to do what is required to give your team an advantage. If you want to win, you get in a fighter of your own, or something like a tu2 that deals with other planes very well. If you want to play a tank and get in a tank after dying to air, you need to understand that you are not playing optimally and WILL be at a disadvantage to air and run the risk of getting farmed again and again.
Like I said, it is not absurd to expect people to play air in battles where air is prominent. It’s exactly the same as saying it’s absurd to expect someone to play tanks in grb. It’s an integral part of the game mode. You cannot expect someone not to use an integral part as that would be stupid.
Your point about spaa is EXACTLY right!!! A vehicle that is 70-110 sp is supposed to be less effective than a vehicle costing 480 or more sp!!! Spaa serve as an alternative to planes when you do not have the larger amount of sp to GET IN A PLANE. Spaa are not always shooting with significant altitude difference, especially in the majority of grb battle rating ranges. You’re mostly shooting between 50-400 meters in elevation, which is also the norm for planes. Last I checked most gunsights don’t tell you how much to lead? Feel free to correct me. You seem a little confused about air combat in general too as just putting your crosshair on the enemy plane if he is maneuvering will result in you missing.
I ask you to also keep your topic on war thunder. I don’t know dota so your arguments are meaningless. Use a relevant example please. Being racist in your post is also not good, please stop doing that.
Last I checked, only helicopters can be grinded by playing tanks. Playing planes requires using a plane. Using a plane in GRB is trolling yourself as it has far lower RP coefficients and the skill bonus is at 9, not 4.
Also flying planes is trolling yourself out of tank RP as well. You cannot grind planes with tanks. You cannot grind tanks with planes.
It is not. SPAA are obtainable by playing tanks. Planes are not obtainable by playing tanks.
And This argument especially
is ridiculous.
Should we introduce the ability to spawn up-BR vehicles in other-lineup game modes because someone got a kill-streak?
Should someone with 8 kills get to fly me-262 vs wildcats in ASB/AAB?
Should someone with 8 kills in a a destroyer at 4.7 highest BR go and spawn a battleship?
Until SBMM and role queue exist, we can only talk player versus player in pub game modes.
Reason I use Dota is because it’s a very well known, kitchen-tier know-about competitive game that’s massively successful and is the definition of a good competitive video game. If you are a gamer, or even just a random person of university age or under 30, you know about either DOTA or LoL (and through LoL, know about Dota).
Also lolwhat?
Explain, because you’re inventing things out of thin air or you grossly misunderstand terminology.
Yup. IMO one or two recon/CAS planes are OK, but once I had a match w/ only two people being tanks. We basically spawn CASed the enemy until they only had 2 tanks left.
As much as I hate CAS, I have to admit I enjoy when I see 6 planes in the sky, which means that all the points are undefended. Sure, bombs are annoying, but not as annoying as losing everything because you decided to hide in the sky instead of playing the game correctly.
Oh lord you’re one of those people still hung up about that vote from years ago.
Flawed logic.
Why fight a losing battle ever if there is no reward for it?
Why fight an uphill battle if the likely outcome leads to no reward?
Why try to reverse a disadvantage when it’s easier to retreat and only fight with an advantage?
Why bother with fighting to the last when the reward for that is nothing? (Gaijin actively encourages players to fight to the last, in case you didn’t know.)
Why do anything that risks losing when the reward for losing is so terrible?
Congrats, you kill competitive games. Not as if people have spent thousands of years figuring out psychology and game theory before you, learning that a punch to the gut for losing is a great incentive to get people to stop playing to begin with; even if the reward for winning is a huge high.
Listen can you actually read what I say? It’s getting pretty annoying to see you misunderstand my VERY clear words. English isn’t my first language and maybe not yours either, but this is getting ridiculous. Read again what I said and then make an actually intelligent comment please.
I am REALLY not going to explain at length again why this is. To dumb it down for you since you evidently did not understand it : Option 1 I died before getting enough spawn points to get in a plane to MORE EFFECTIVELY kill other planes → spaa that is significantly cheaper to spawn and less effective in turn. Option I was useful enough to get enough spawn points to get in a plane that better contests other planes → get in a plane, kill whatever planes there are, and then you get to live and either do cas yourself or go and target enemy planes as a priority. If I need to make this clearer to you please ask as I know you are not experienced in grb.
How is this ridiculous? Something that costs more sp to spawn should be, in turn, more effective? Or does this logic not make sense to you?
No to all of these utterly ridiculous and abusable mechanics.
No, I don’t know about it as I say. This is a war thunder forum, please keep it about war thunder. If you can’t explain your examples in terms of war thunder they very clearly are not relevant. Nor do I know anything about league of legends except that it is a competitive game. SBMM has also ruined the majority of the games it was implemented in. I really do not need to explain this.
You and runa seem to have the same issue where you don’t understand basic English.
Do I need to go through and explain it word for word to you? It’s pretty easy to see, even from the quote you used, that I advocate for LESS rewards for losing, not NONE. Your first point shows me that you didn’t understand even that small quote at all.
competition in game is lower than it was before. Mainly due to there not being a big disparity between losing and winning in terms of rewards. Increasing that disparity could maybe galvanize the terrible playerbase into trying to win more and to improve their skills.
I am curious why neither you nor runa play cas in grb nor are you good at air to air? I have a theory that people start crying at cas because they do not take the trouble of either learning how to fly well (the main issue) or do cas themselves. For someone that has been playing for so long I would have expected a better understanding of the game but it seems that I am to be sorely disappointed.
Never in my life will I ever need to think about ever playing tanks. I can take a rank 1 reserve plane in AAB/ARB/ASB, use it and over time unlock rank VIII top tier aircraft without ever feeling disadvantaged for not having a tank. Maybe in ASB to offset the absurd spawn costs at rank V jets, but a premium solves that as does playing rank 3 games to save up for your rank V grind.
I play tanks.
You say, that playing tanks I should not have the same experience as with aircraft and I must play game modes with planes to play tanks?
Do you not realize the absurdity of this?
If I play planes, I can progress without any friction to top tier using only planes.
If I play tanks, I must be punished for wanting to play tanks and not planes (or even if I want to play planes - not wanting to play planes in game modes/rulesets I don’t enjoy).
My record for “most useful” yak-9k spawn was driving a Kv-1 Zis-5 to C on advance to the rhine at spawn and getting an assist on a panther before dying to CAS. I was so very useful to my team. Game-changing, truly.
And I’m not alone.
Consider:
ULQ is a good player.
But in no universe can you say he was “useful” for his team in his sacrifical M2A4:
Your argument that CAS deserves dominance falls apart at first examination.
Even you agree that one player gaining utter dominance over peers without the ability to return fire with appropriate use of their chosen vehicle is ridiculous and abusable.
Good job.
You grind SPAA with tanks.
You get zero plane RP with tanks.
You cannot get any clearer logic than this.
I can play ARB/AAB/ASB without ever touching any vehicle from the other branches (ground, naval) and have maximum enjoyment without handicap.
ARB/AAB/ASB have issues, but this point cannot be denied.
GRB/GSB should likewise be playable without ever touching naval/air trees. Helicopters I can see as justifiable purely to maintain consistent logic and prevent presenting a surface for you as helicopters CAN be grinded by only playing tanks (although inverse still fails to provide RP for tanks).
First: Competition is better at lower BR (prop tier, rank II, III, IV) than at rank V jets in ASB. Idk about rank VI/VII/VIII as I don’t play those. What might be the cause?
Maybe the fact that at prop tiers, when you die you don’t go into an irrecoverable debt spiral - so you respawn and keep trying and trying and trying until the match ends or you get bored/tired. You can do that in a yak-9k, bf109g14, spitfire and so on. You cannot in a Horten unless you have a premium account or a massive amount of saved up SL.
Here’s your warthunder example. Making it not impossible to play and gain progress even while losing improves competetiveness.
Could also offer a personal sampling, but we play with different control schemes (which makes neither of us superior or inferior, better or worse - just confounding factor for comparison due to lesser experience in the other’s style. We could draw comparisons in both of our chosen styles to account for this. I’m quite keen at new experiences and happy for opportunities to improve my flying even if it’s an unusual context!)
I dislike how awfully tiny the GRB map is for flying planes, making high-speed mid-altitude dogfights effectively non-existent (which are what I prefer - 3-4km altitude band at 450-550 km/h starting speed).
Coinciding with the map design is the match duration - a fun dogfight can easily take 3-5 minutes on its own depending on whether you count from first shot fired, the merge or the preliminary jockeying for energy and position before the merge. Airspawns is also another thing I hate (only heavy bombers unable to take off or have awful climbrates should get airspawn) , alongside vicinity of airfields - I prefer being as far from airfields to not get an oil leak by hitscan flak.
I also dislike how my preferred planes (Corsairs, Mustangs, Bf109s) feel with mouse aim (too much rudder, flop around like a dead fish, constantly try to level wings out).
I also, rather shockingly, want to play with my T-34/KV, tiger/panther, my firefly/comet/centurion (and her variants) not fly planes. If I wanted to fly planes, I’d go to the mode where I fly planes and has neither of my issues (controls, map design, mission design.).
A terrifying concept, I know. Someone deciding to play ground battles after flying around for a week to play with cool tanks and not with planes (which they adore, but not in this context.)
Edit:
SBMM and ruining games.
SBMM is such a crucial aspect of competetive gameplay, that before there was an official AOE2 matchmaker, players created their own tracking system for ELO. Without SBMM, competetive AOE2:DE couldn’t exist.
Without SBMM, competetive Dota2 and LoL couldn’t exist.
And Dota2/LoL, in addition to SBMM, also necessitate a “Role queue” (players tell you what role they fulfill before queueing, with different ELO/MMR for different positions filled. Not honouring the role queue is a reportable and punishable AND enforced offence.) T
This is necessary because teamwork is necessary to win. Without a “Pos 5” (someone who has powerful early game advantage and falls off rapidly into late-game, transitioning into a utility position then), “pos 1” (powerful late game, but pitiful early game and mid-game) cannot be played. Pos 5 would dominate pos 1 if not for pos 2 and 3 whose job is to weaken the enemy pos-5 and maintain presence and create “space” during the mid game. Pos 4 is weird and either helps protect pos 1 like pos 5, but has better mid/late scaling or assists pos 3 in suppressing enemy pos 1. The decision making is only possible because SBMM ensures all 5 positions/team are equal in skill and game knowledge and role queue ensures both teams have all positions filled.
“Pos” is “Position” and refers to priority of “farm” (resources), with pos-1 getting primacy (you should farm even if there’s a fight happening except to clean-up until you “come online”) and pos-5 “you should never farm unless it’d go to waste or to the enemy”. Of course, there’s additional nuance and ways to break position rules at high skill levels.
