Why is Germany doing so bad - quick overview of WW2 BR range

[Fizzy_Elf1]

ya no.

4.0 germany has two meh mediums, good guns but everything else is bad, a meme td, a good hill fighter td, two howitzer spgs, and a stug, i love the stug but its not game breaking at its br. wait i forgot about the flak halftrack, i mean its ok but its flaws hamper it so much. i much rather take the italian bread truck over the flak 88. as for planes its not good, you got bf109f4s which are good in air rb but meh in tanks thanks to the lower fighting alt everyone does, fw190s which are ok, and cas is ehhh, the bf110s are ok bombers when you need to but their lack of bomb sight limits how well you can place the bombs, and the h16, which i love but sadly isnt that great for actual cas.

5.0 pretty just has the vk, the hetzer isnt good at this far of a br increase and is effectively an open top to boot, the jagdpanzer 4 is in the same boat, its good at 4.3, but not 5.0. as for planes, youre forced to use fw190s, most likely the f8 and d9/d12

6.0 does have 4 good heavies, 1 above average medium with the panther a, an m109, the waffen, and quite good jagdpanzer. as for planes this is where things get worse, the k4 is bad thanks to its new flight model, well “new” and is pretty much unflyable outside of a 200km/h zone, right around 450 and 650, a ta152 h1 which has a good flight model but its firepower is so bad now, the he162 are usable but their limited firepower, poor acceleration and tendency to burn themselves alive if you slightly push the engine, makes the fighter quite hard to run as cap, as for cas you got the he177 if you like punishing yourself, or the f8, still. oh and the lack of light tank will be a massive problem thanks to the swarm of hellcats at this br.

also your idea of germany getting light tanks and good cas would break this br shows you too have a bias, just against germany for some dumb reason

[PercussionCap]

It’s almost as if I predicted this.

Meanwhile, Chi-Nu II has higher pen + enemy armor has lower equivalent, and it will actually do damage.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Fizzy_Elf1

4.0 germany has two meh mediums, good guns but everything else is bad

Pz.IV H is pretty good. It’s not quite as good as Turan III or Sherman, but it’s more than sufficient.
Along with Pz.IV, you get:

• 8.8cm Flak which is very underated not as in low BR, but as in it’s better than ppl say

• M44 which is also very strong

• Ostwind is better than pretty much every other nation’s 4.0 SPAA

• Stug IV, which tbf I haven’t played it, but ppl seem to like it.

• And ofc the Puma.

For CAS, Germany gets a decent array of options, although as I’ve said the CAS is meh in exchange for good tanks.

That is more than enough for a full lineup, and a fairly decent one as well.

@Fizzy_Elf1

5.0 pretty just has the vk, the hetzer isnt good at this far of a br increase and is effectively an open top to boot, the jagdpanzer 4 is in the same boat, its good at 4.3, but not 5.0. as for planes, youre forced to use fw190s, most likely the f8 and d9/d12

The Hetzer is still very strong at 5.0, same for the Ostwind. The Fw 190 F-8, Me 410, Do 335, and Bf 109 G-2 cover your CAS needs better than most nations.

@Fizzy_Elf1

also your idea of germany getting light tanks and good cas would break this br shows you too have a bias, just against germany for some dumb reason

Sorry, but someone disagreeing with you doesn’t mean they’re biased. Germany is not weak, and if you somehow think any of the big three are, then that’s the real biased.

[Nowel]

@PercussionCap

Meanwhile, Chi-Nu II has higher pen + enemy armor has lower equivalent, and it will actually do damage.

It has a lower armor equivalent because your camera is higher up, at these angles the pen is basically the same, btw you can still one shot the jag with the german 75.

The two of them are quite close in terms of penetration only the japanese one has an edge on damage due to the higher tnte but it is still an aphe at the end of the day, it is not a solid shot, they actually do damage

[Herojure24]

@Pangolin_Fan

Stug IV, which tbf I haven’t played it, but ppl seem to like it.

Well of course you have not played it since it’s not in the game.

[Pangolin_Fan]

The Stug and Stuh and 42 are confusing, especially being surrounded by so many fours.

[Herojure24]

Kinda. There is only one stuh afaik and a couple stug IIIs. The funny thing is the stug IV was promised before tanks even got added and it’s still not ingame over 10 years later.

[ElGrancapitan]

Same for Stug 3 late.

[Herojure24]

Yeah well at least we have 3 versions of the III in game,

[Loofah]

Also late StuH 42 with MG (lack of MG hurts StuH a lot).

[PercussionCap]

@Nowel

because your camera is higher up

My camera did not move at all.

@Nowel

btw you can still one shot the jag with the german 75.

Protection analysis is wrong, it also claims Jumbo’s armor is much weaker than it actually is.

@Nowel

The two of them are quite close in terms of penetration

50/50 at 55deg

50/50 at only 50deg

---

Against Pz IV it can be angled to near invulnerability (both front and side are ~133mm effective, higher than pen at 500m)

Against Chi-Nu II the front is now only 125mm (guaranteed pen, Type 4 Ko has 137mm at the same range) and the side is also penetrable anyway lol

In fact Chi-Nu II can afford to shoot all the way over there, still penetrate and still get a kill, making it much more reliable

[Nowel]

@PercussionCap

My camera did not move at all.

Compared to my shot… Your impact angle was 43º vs 45º on my screenshot.

Also in your damage “coparation” you didnt even hit on the same spot, on the chi nu is sustancially higher, and if you had impacted on the same place you would have gotten a much closer damage

Btw nothing that you have shown indicate this massive penetration advantage that youre claiming, just marginally better, this arent crazy slope modifiers that like on the soviet blunt nose, while this only really works at over 10º-15º range, also the minor penetration differences goes both ways, and this by itself doesnt justify a literal full br difference.

[Loofah]

If we are going off-topic.
Japanese 75mm seems to be custom made to deal with VK3002 - want to avoid trolly turret?
Just blast it in the UFP:

Pzgr 39 can’t even hope:

Again - the difference is not huge.
But the difference means a lot more reliable shots vs angled tanks even if angle is guessed wrong.

Instead of VK it can be angled Tiger f.e. |

Also there’s this certified hood classic, which is IMo very important, as SU-85M is a goddamn menace:

[PercussionCap]

@Nowel

Your impact angle was 43º vs 45º on my screenshot.

I wasn’t copying your screenshot directly though?

@Nowel

in your damage “coparation” you didnt even hit on the same spot, on the chi nu is sustancially higher

It’s the same point.

@Nowel

the “incredible OP oneshot Pz IV gun” fails to kill a single crewmember LMAO

@Nowel

just marginally better, this arent crazy slope modifiers that like on the soviet blunt nose

The “marginally better” is the difference between enemies being able to angle against you, and not

@Nowel

also the minor penetration differences goes both ways

It goes one way because the advantage is one-sided.

@Nowel

and this by itself doesnt justify a literal full br difference

I’d rather have the Chi-Nu II gun at 4.3 than the Pz IV’s gun at 3.3.

@Nowel

One degree away from penning anyway. Huge difference! And unlike the Pz IV’s crappy filler, the Chi-Nu II will actually kill what it penetrates, instead of leaving the gunner, driver, AND turret drive all alive.

This entire exchange shows exactly why the Chi-Nu II deserves a higher BR than Pz IV G or H, regardless of player skill.

[Loofah]

I have just posted Su-85M screenshots.
Su-85M is frontally immune to Pzgr 39 outside of cupola, the mantlet “weakspot” is mostly a lie (often fails to do anything).
Cupola shot usually kills 2 crewmen.

LFP shot with Type 4 Kou - 1-shot kill.

He can angle, he can wiggle, he can be close - you always have LFP shot that Pz IV loses easily.

[Nowel]

@PercussionCap

the “incredible OP oneshot Pz IV gun” fails to kill a single crewmember LMAO

I see now youre making shit up… if you want to be dishonest at least try harder

@PercussionCap

It’s the same point.

It isnt on one on the pz4 youre literally hitting the top of the trasmission.

[Loofah]

When firing at 45 degree angle the advantage of Japanese gun is small. Anything more and it gets bigger.
JP IV can be aiming a bit down, increasing his UFP angle.
Kou - goes through.
Pzgr 39 - nope.
Etc. etc.
Every time you face 40+ plate at 50+ degrees Kou will have an advantage, thus the number of “missed my shot and hit the side and bounced” decreases.

Again - it’s not a huge difference, but big enough to make a difference.

[Nowel]

@Loofah

Again - it’s not a huge difference, but big enough to make a difference.

Well is it really as much of a difference for a full br? Becase the same can be argued for the for the 3.3 Chi-nu which does actually have a huge difference, while on at the same br

[Loofah]

Sure as hell not for a full BR.
But the whole “these guns are virtually identical” argument doesn’t hold water, that’s all.

Cupola shot vs Jumbo.
Pzgr 39 doesn’t take out the transmission, jumbo can still move, angle and make subsequent shots living nightmare.
Vs Japan he’s done, though 2nd shot will be needed!

[FlipAllTheTables]

@PercussionCap

Protection analysis is wrong, it also claims Jumbo’s armor is much weaker than it actually is.

No it doesn’t.

The Jumbo UFP is weaker than a single 101.6mm plate at the same angle, because it’s made of two plates that get individually overmatched (which when angled means worse performance).

Beyond that, it’s down to camera placement. Correct usage of protection analysis will tell you a Panther shooting the Jumbo upper glacis dead on reaches 50/50 at roughly 200 to 250 meters. I have tested this, and it is true.