While you are right that by most measures it is a less armoured KT, that’s the whole point.
It’s much smaller/sleeker, no muzzle brake, integrated rangefinder, better mobility. With a gun as potent as the long 88, these all boost its performance markedly. Bad players can also confuse you for a Panther F.
P2 is a phenomenal tank and I would take it over KT any day.
Yeah, but you’re discussing topics you don’t know about. Go use that APHE belt and go melt some tanks. Go shoot some T95 cupolas…
Delete 7.7 heavies…
This thing cannot be any lower in BR, it’s too powerful. They gave you the Kugel to 6.7 now, at least.
That just sounds like a sidegrade to me, you trade one quality for another, I don’t see a Panther being a 7.0 vehicle considering what else is out there and what you fight in the 7-8 range.
Took them 10 years to get the Kugel at a usable BR and fixed turret rotation, they still nerfed the HVAP and belt composition, and it’s a downgrade from the Coelian.
I don’t think it matters if it’s at 6.7 anyways, they keep making the same mistake to just uptier anything that does well with autocannons because they have zero consideration for the actual gameplay and circumstances and push these vehicles straight into early cold war era vehicles with zero armor where they get even more powerful.
To me what counts is the win ratio. You guys have twice the win ratio normal German team achieves with me mopping the floor with enemy planes and I’m not that bad with tanks either.
I couldn’t boost the WR by as much with 6-8 vs 6-8 matchmaker while killing 40% to half of enemy team ON AVERAGE by myself in Air RB. So there’s that.
That’s why I worded it that way; Every time I’ve sat in my tiger 1 I’m just instantly nuked from across the map on first shot regardless of angling. And yes, I usually carry less than half ammo to remove ammunition from the sides. My experience, however, =/= the norm.
I wouldn’t say the german tree sucks because I know I get screwed by the snail. I kinda quit ground realistic when I shot an M4 in the side of the turret with a 90 degree striking angle at sub 300m in a tiger H1 for a bounce. Don’t remember the variant but it was enough to say ‘yeah, I’m done with ground for a while.’
Another part of the issue is I don’t know if it’s specifically a ps5 rendering issue but I will look at a spot with binocs, see nothing despite scanning as best I can and then the instant I move, someone shoots me from that exact spot I looked.
The tldr is there’s skill issue and volumetric screwing me galore.
Ok, that’s a very good point. I was thinking about quantities of players but not quantities of matches.
From what I see on the old wiki, penetration for the Pz.Gr. Rot used to be 251mm at point blank 0°. Now, it’s 284, pushing it above the Jagdtiger’s pen value.
Sadly I have no way of checking protection analysis in the game for this shell. But I can actually think of a few edge cases that would be better or worse depending on the circumstances. For example, killing IS-4Ms is probably harder now, because cutting through the driver’s port no longer guarantees you will overpressure them. But frontally you should have less trouble with T32E1, M103 or IS-3 as well.
Tbh, the regular Tiger II still nukes everything with its post-pen and it has “only” 109g of filler.
That’s literally the tradeoff. Mobility will end up positively influencing matches far more often than armour.
This is definitely a very real downside.
You can remove the night vision devices by uninstalling the modification. It’s a change they introduced last year IIRC. Bonus point: it makes you look like a Panther F, which can mislead a few folks. Though you do get less drip in exchange.
Where’s the 50% coming from? Aced Tiger II reload is 7.5s. Aced Tiger II 105 reload is 12.5s. That’s an increase of more than 50% on the regular Tiger II, and it is genuinely a drawback, but the extra mobility and the extra pen imho make up for it. Especially the mobility.
I have watched it wreak absolute havoc and earn nuke after nuke after nuke since it got its new guns. It’s an anti-everything. It eats Tutels and IS-4Ms for breakfast while still being excellent at taking down planes.
I do, it’s a very good AA and German 6.7 needed it. No one was gonna uptier an entire lineup to 7.0 just to play the Kugel, that BR never made any sense.
I agree that it is the most important stat. It’s just not the only relevant stat when we’re discussing vehicle/lineup performance, imho.
At the end of the day, our fundamental disagreement is how much of that win rate we are attributing to just how we play vs a combination of how we play and the vehicles we use.
From my perspective, since mobility issues are the primary limitation of the Tiger IIs and JT, and a lack of mobility cannot be mitigated with gameplay (while you can mitigate lack of armour by not being hit), if we’re doing this well it means that overall, the vehicles make it eminently possible, for more than just the top 0.2% or whatever.
Yes but no.
You know f.e. how I die around the “tropical beach paradise jungle map with a cap on the hill”?
I drive too close to the hill. And I hear the enemy moving behind the corner. I start turning. Another enemy appears on top of the hill, now I have to go forward and try to somehow win by driving round the corner (suicide) or try to turn towards guy on the hill, who will back off, and the guy driving around will just shoot me in the side.
My real issue here is mobility, as I can’t just “get the hell out of there” by turning the other way and bolting BEFORE they manage to get into position. I have no reverse to get out of there without exposing my rear.
But if I had a teammate I can trust sitting a a bit back in Jagdtiger, even hidden behind the ridge, now I’m in the advantageous position. Now I can focus on the guy driving around the hill, because the very second guy on top sticks his head out, he’s getting nuked - actually now I can bait him into exposing himself.
My mobility is no longer the “big problem”.
Now I can actually, you know, move around the cap and not die to flanking fire.
This is impossible with how German teams play, which is pure cowardice, because everyone (including myself) knows getting close to cap is death, and everyone assumes he’s on his own.
Honestly this whole thread looks like it has devolved into a “skill issue” thread, so here are several areas that any player can focus on before they can complain about vehicles objectively:
Most of the deaths and failures I’ve seen are a result from a shortcoming in one or more of these areas, and I’m definitely there with a loser attitude.
Furthermore, fighting the enemy in front of you to destroy them is a tactic; fighting the enemy to win is a strategy. Therefore, plan your moves out like you’re playing chess. Assume your opponent is a perfect player that will capitalize on any and all of your mistakes and that you’re the only person that can counter them. Capitalize on your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses being exposed. Something something Sun Tzu said so.
Also, War Thunder is kind of a janky game at times. No matter how good you are, the weight of lead can be hard on one’s back and all it takes is one bump in the road for one to trip and be crushed.
I know what you mean: it is really hard to separate the vehicle from the players, because no vehicle in this game plays itself.
For instance on a lot of maps (say Advance To The Rhine or Abandoned Factory) I go on the side that I know my rookie German team mates will neglect. On the one hand that’s good because it can help the win rate, which is the most important thing, but it is true that I’m also setting myself up for an uphill match. Usually the enemy team will have more experienced players (especially from minor nations) and so maybe at C on Abandoned Factory there will be two of our guys vs four or five of theirs, and so on.
Having said that, mobility is one of the few things that you use almost all the time in a match. So the lack of mobility really will hamper you. You will get to power positions later, you will not be able to pull off some counter moves, you have to plan ahead how you can react if a cap is falling while you’re somewhere else, etc. So it’s a pretty serious limitation for these vehicles even if you’re the best player in the world. But if you’re a thinking player, you can work around it.
I think on the whole we’re actually being very civil by the standards of the forum ngl
Your whole list is great, but I want to emphasise this point especially.
When I make my videos, one thing I notice by going back to the replays is that even in my very best matches, I make so many mistakes. Matches that felt perfect or flawless when I played them, where I maybe dropped a nuke and saved the day, but then I go back and see all the stupid or suboptimal things I did.
Even just from the two videos I posted above, I can name several mistakes that appear on screen, and those are two nukes.
There’s always, always room for improvement. Never rest on your laurels.
The matches where I can do this with clarity are usually those where I get the best results.
That Ardennes Winter match I posted was like that, specifically the section with the IS-3, the SUB and the T29. For some reason I managed to stay very calm and thought through what I was gonna do to get out of that situation in steps. It was a weird but cool feeling.
100%. Sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug.
Not sure why you diss the rank 2 german tanks so much, but put the m10 on a pedestal.
The Pz 4 F2 can pretty much obliterate the m10 frontally - just aim for driver and boom.
Protection analysis even show the Pz 3 M being able to severely cripple the m10 frontally - just aim for UFP between the spare tracks - driver spot shows most critical hits.
Even the Pz 4 F1 can wipe out the m10 with a HEAT shot to the .50 cal (have had enemies do that to my m18 on occasion much to my frustration). Of course the HEAT round can also pen the front of the m10, but sometimes that is hidden, unlike the .50 cal.
It is tiny.
The fact protection analysis lies and shows tons of “no damage” areas as green is not my problem.
It’s basically a few pixels right next to the mantlet. It’s maybe 10-15cm in diameter. So pixel-sized at distance.
When we’re talking about hitting pixel-sized targets with ease, then we’re talking 0,1% super-elite skill level.
Ignore the protection map. How is this shot worse to pull off than hitting the MG port of a Jumbo, the turret corners of a KV-1 behind the curved mantlet, or the cheeks of an IS-2?
If a player has gotten through to German 6.7 without ever learning where to shoot tough enemies, they’re probably gonna struggle in any tech tree. You don’t need to be a tournament monster 0.1% uber player to know weakspots.
This spot is even smaller than MG port of jumbo.
And also MG port of Jumbo is generally non-viable (with rare exceptions of relatively short range and Jumbo being stationary) outside of absolute elite of the elite.
6.7 German SPAA in action.
As you can clearly see, German SPAAs have excellent chances at countering enemy CAS.
Yak-9K first takes HVAP to the wingtip.
Then takes M-geschoss to the wingtip, which delivers dog-shit damage. Just as Stalin intended.
IMO this is obvious example of…
SKILL ISSUE and STUPID GERMAN TEAM.
If I had higher skill and German team was better, that Yak-9K wouldn’t have behaved like it’s some kind of a flying tank.
Not really. They’re of comparable size. And it’s also much harder to hide compared to the MG port, if the IS-3 wants to shoot you.
Of course it’s viable.
I’m starting to think you and I have very different concepts of what “elite” means when it comes to the WT playerbase…
Turret stays mobile, you can immobilize the hull way easier.
For an elite 0,1% player Jumbo is made of paper and an easy kill at 500m with Puma.
For the normal player, Jumbo MG port is not worth the shooting, better go for the track and get the hell out of there.
Say you’re in a VK3002 when you meet the Jumbo. Your reverse speed is terrible. Even if you track the Jumbo, it can immobilise you with the .50 and/or its high RoF anyway. How do you deal with it? Do you just smoke and run? You don’t even try to destroy it?
Personally what I think happens to the average player is, they shoot centre mass a bunch, it doesn’t work and the Jumbo kills them. Then they go online to write an angry post on Reddit or see if other people are having the same issues as them.
It’s very easy from that kind of query to find information about the MG port even by accident. Then, this hypothetical player being average, they probably don’t do much with this information - they theoretically know it but don’t necessarily put it into practice while playing it.
That doesn’t make the weakspot any less real though.
Sure, but eventually the IS-3 will target to shoot you. Or you’ll be in a situation where the IS-3 turns a corner and finds you in your JT holding the sight line, so he doesn’t really have the time to react. “Shoot right next to the gun from the frontal aspect” is hardly the most esoteric of weakspots…
If you don’t have a .50, the time you spend destroying both tracks on a Jumbo is time for him to barrel your Panther or kill your turret crew. It’s a waste of time and inviting a free kill.
In WT, turret armour is more important than hull armour. You can hide the latter and shoot, but not the latter.
in modern WT speed and silhouette are what matter most, that’s why 6.7 would be too low for it
VK up close vs Jumbo is dead thanks to sub 90mm turret front.
Up close kwk 42 has a chance to go through the mantlet.
It can also go through the transmission area and kill the driver.
Of course when MG port is your only chance -you can’t hide and you know Jumbo will end you if you don’t 1-shot it and it’s too far for the mantlet shot, then yeah, although I have my doubts about the reliability of it, unless somebody is 0,1%er of course. Then it’s a simple 500m snipe with 5cm L60.
